My reflections on 2020 AD - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15074855
Hindsite wrote:The Trump of God has already completed the goal to "Make America Great Again", but I am not sure that he will be able to "Keep America Great" which is his new campaign slogan. The Devil and his demons are working hard against that and a large number of the people seem to be working against that too. God sometimes allows such evil to rule.


God raised up men like Nebuchadnezzar, Shalmanezer, Pharaoh, Antiochus Epiphanes, and so forth, to persecute the People of God. Great and Mighty men who also were doing the work of the Lord. Great men who did His Will without knowing it, for they themselves were evil and proud men, heathen and Godless.

Keep that in mind.
#15074871
annatar1914 wrote:God raised up men like Nebuchadnezzar, Shalmanezer, Pharaoh, Antiochus Epiphanes, and so forth, to persecute the People of God. Great and Mighty men who also were doing the work of the Lord. Great men who did His Will without knowing it, for they themselves were evil and proud men, heathen and Godless.

Keep that in mind.

Netanyahu and many in Israel have likened Trump to King Cyrus.

Israeli organisation mints coin bearing Trump's image


How a Bible prophecy shapes Trump's foreign policy
#15074935
Hindsite wrote:Netanyahu and many in Israel have likened Trump to King Cyrus.

Israeli organisation mints coin bearing Trump's image


How a Bible prophecy shapes Trump's foreign policy


@Hindsite

That is because they are Jews and don't have the enlightenment by God the Holy Spirit that true Christians have concerning the Scriptures. Netanyahu is himself a slick western style secular politician who would literally say anything about anyone if it furthered his personal goals.

The reason why I say this is because none of these prophesies speaks to or about modern Judaism, but only Christianity in It's Old Testament and New Testament iterations. Cyrus himself was a heathen king, you should bear in mind, whose name (within the contest of the prophesy) means ''the Sun'' in an old Iranian dialect... So the prophesy is speaking to a greater fulfillment by Jesus Christ, the ''Sun of Righteousness''.

So what does President Trump have to do with all this in reality? Not much. He is an legitimate earthly ruler to whom obedience is due for at least prudential reasons, in all things he directly commands except a command that is sinful.

''Israel'' as a Nation is a legitimate polity set up by secular men for secular reasons, to organize those of the Jewish nation into a territorial state free to govern themselves. There is no religious or spiritual reason otherwise for a Christian to support that nation's existence or not support it for that matter. I do happen to believe that towards the End of Days, the Jewish people that still exists at that time will collectively accept Christ through their representative leadership just as they collectively rejected Him once in their representative leadership. Aside from that Judaism is a false religion and to rebuild the Temple and re-institute animal sacrifices for sins would be a horrible Abomination and Blasphemy. I however do not believe that that would ever happen, and that any attempt to do so will meet the fate recorded of the attempt made by the Emperor Julian the Apostate and the Jews in the 300's AD to do so.
#15075108
@annatar1914

Don't you realize that just as King Cyrus was a gentile heathen most of those that became Christians were also gentile heathens? We evangelical Christians today are looking for the fulfillment of prophecy by the return in glory of Christ Jesus to the rebuilt third temple. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Praise the Lord.

(Matthew 24:1-22 KJV)
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Pointing to the Temple, Jesus told his followers, “There shall not be left here one stone upon another”, a prophecy that was fulfilled in 70 AD when Jerusalem and the Temple were completely destroyed by the Romans.

Later, Jesus describes End Times apocalyptic events including wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes. Many of his statements sound eerily akin to modern-day events.

Finally, Jesus describes an “abomination” standing in the Temple. Given that the temple does not stand today, many believe Jesus is referring to a Third and as of yet, unbuilt temple.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus refers to a “abomination of desolation” that would stand in the “holy place” as a sign that the End Times were near. Similarly, in Daniel 12, Daniel describes the timing of the End Times as “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up”.

Since Jews do not currently practice sacrifices, we can presume that sacrifices must first be re-introduced to their religion, then taken away and followed by the abomination of desolation defiling the “holy place”.

2 Thessalonians 2 describes a “man of lawlessness, the man doomed to destruction” who will oppose God and set himself up in “God’s temple”. This is typically interpreted as the Antichrist setting up his rule in the Temple.

John describes a future, non-existent temple in Revelation 11.








#15075222
@annatar1914

Don't you realize that just as King Cyrus was a gentile heathen most of those that became Christians were also gentile heathens? We evangelical Christians today are looking for the fulfillment of prophecy by the return in glory of Christ Jesus to the rebuilt third temple. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Praise the Lord.


Yes, there is definite disagreement, your basic ignorance of Holy Scripture, of historical and Scriptural context, and of early Church history precludes you from having a correct understanding of prophesy and end times events, even as they are happening.

But all that aside...

For you to practically worship a human being who is after all merely a political and business figure of our times is quite offensive, especially for one claiming to be a Christian. He is to be prayed for and his authority which is ordained of God is to be respected, of course, but you go a considerable distance further with him.

Yes, we were all heathen gentiles at one point, and I do pray for conversion, but we have to be clear eyed and realistic. President Trump is not a good man, but nor are his enemies, they are frequently worse. But he is not a good man at all.

''Trust not in princes''
#15075379
annatar1914 wrote:Yes, there is definite disagreement, your basic ignorance of Holy Scripture, of historical and Scriptural context, and of early Church history precludes you from having a correct understanding of prophesy and end times events, even as they are happening.

Perhaps you are the ignorant one. I tried to educate you on the Holy Scripture and understanding of prophesy and end times events as they are happening, but your bias prevents you from seeing clearly.

annatar1914 wrote:But all that aside...

For you to practically worship a human being who is after all merely a political and business figure of our times is quite offensive, especially for one claiming to be a Christian. He is to be prayed for and his authority which is ordained of God is to be respected, of course, but you go a considerable distance further with him.

I don't worship a human being. I just recognize the role of the Trump of God in prophecy and present history. Many evangelical Christians have publicly prayed for President Trump and he has gladly accepted those prayers.

Faith leaders put hands on Trump and pray
Sep 1, 2017


Faith Leaders Pray For President Trump And America
Jan 3, 2020


annatar1914 wrote:Yes, we were all heathen gentiles at one point, and I do pray for conversion, but we have to be clear eyed and realistic. President Trump is not a good man, but nor are his enemies, they are frequently worse. But he is not a good man at all.

''Trust not in princes''

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
(Romans 3:23 KJV)
We voted for a believing leader as President, not as Pope.

BIBLICAL PATTERNS AND AMERICAN PRESIDENTS
#15075380
Perhaps you are the ignorant one. I tried to educate you on the Holy Scripture and understanding of prophesy and end times events as they are happening, but your bias prevents you from seeing clearly.


Hardly. For Scripture wrote of men such as you.


I don't worship a human being. I just recognize the role of the Trump of God in prophecy and present history. Many evangelical Christians have publicly prayed for President Trump and he has gladly accepted those prayers.


And their votes and money, don't forget that.

Faith leaders put hands on Trump and pray
Sep 1, 2017


Faith Leaders Pray For President Trump And America
Jan 3, 2020



“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”


Today's Pharisees just as those of yesteryear love to be seen by men, and close to the corridors of earthly power and wealth. Had they his true spiritual health in mind, it wouldn't be a photo-op.

We voted for a believing leader as President, not as Pope.


You sure he's a believer?

Edit; I should remind you of the Holy Scripture, which in Jeremiah 17:5 the prophet writes;

This is what the Lord says:

“Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who draws strength from mere flesh
and whose heart turns away from the Lord.''
#15075387
annatar1914 wrote:You sure he's a believer?

Yes. He is making every effort to keep his promises and even some promises that other Presidents made, but did not keep, like putting our embassy to Jerusalem.
#15075394
Hindsite wrote:Yes. He is making every effort to keep his promises and even some promises that other Presidents made, but did not keep, like putting our embassy to Jerusalem.


You of all people should know and understand that works are not faith. And, you assume that moving the American embassy to Jerusalem is a spiritually righteous act. So, you confuse works with faith, the political with the spiritual, and Christian belief with Jewish non-belief. Truly you are a confused man!

I'm not saying Trump cannot be converted nor that he shouldn't be prayed for-for he should as with all earthly rulers-but he is not some quasi-messianic figure that you have made him, and his kingdom, America, is entirely of this world. There will come a day when America will no longer be, just as there was a time before America was.
#15075397
annatar1914 wrote:You of all people should know and understand that works are not faith. And, you assume that moving the American embassy to Jerusalem is a spiritually righteous act. So, you confuse works with faith, the political with the spiritual, and Christian belief with Jewish non-belief. Truly you are a confused man!

James 2:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
#15075398
Hindsite wrote:James 2:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


True enough, more than you realize perhaps. But you cannot show where the merely political act of Trump's secular government of moving the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a spiritual work of a Christian leader rather than a Jewish one.
#15075399
annatar1914 wrote:True enough, more than you realize perhaps. But you cannot show where the merely political act of Trump's secular government of moving the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a spiritual work of a Christian leader rather than a Jewish one.

James 2:14-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

It is under Jewish control that Middle Eastern Christians have access to the Christian holy sites and freedom to practice their faith. The restrictions generally come under Islamic, not Israeli rule.

By recognizing Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel, the President is blessing Israel, and God still blesses those who bless His covenant nation. Out of all the cities on the earth, the Bible only calls us to pray for the welfare of Jerusalem. The strong resistance to the President's decision gives evidence to the intensity of the spiritual battle over this city. There are prophetic scriptures that speak of a Jewish Jerusalem welcoming back the Messiah, and so the decision to fortify the unity of the city is in explicit harmony with those Scriptures, examples are (Zechariah 12 and 14).

As for President Trump, he is convinced that this formal recognition of Jerusalem will aid the peace process. How can promoting peace not be Christian?

Praise the Lord.
#15075405
@Hindsite

It is under Jewish control that Middle Eastern Christians have access to the Christian holy sites and freedom to practice their faith. The restrictions generally come under Islamic, not Israeli rule.


Irrelevant. I don't think you understand my last post or it's implications.

By recognizing Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel, the President is blessing Israel, and God still blesses those who bless His covenant nation.


His Covenant Church, Old and New Covenant Church of the People of God. The modern State of Israel is not that covenant nation/church. This is a fundamental misunderstanding, an error you are not likely to admit is wrong.

Not only that, it was a political act, you have yet to say how it is a spiritual work. For how does doing things for unbelieving Jews according to their religion bring about God's grace in a Christian? It is as absurd as it is blasphemous, insane to a genuine Christian and unbelieving Jew alike.

Out of all the cities on the earth, the Bible only calls us to pray for the welfare of Jerusalem.


The spiritual ''Jerusalem'', the Church of God.

The strong resistance to the President's decision gives evidence to the intensity of the spiritual battle over this city.


What ''strong resistance'' or ''spiritual battle'' are you talking about? :eh:

Can you name anything ''spiritual'' about this political battle, some spiritual quality at work in this, the fruits of the Spirit perhaps?

No.


There are prophetic scriptures that speak of a Jewish Jerusalem welcoming back the Messiah, and so the decision to fortify the unity of the city is in explicit harmony with those Scriptures, examples are (Zechariah 12 and 14).


Kind of beside the point. As by then, the Jews who do not join Antichrist will have become Christian. Does that mean that the present nation-state of Israel as we know it today will continue to exist until then? No, it doesn't. Hal Lindsey and a host of other fools make all sorts of assumptions like that.

As for President Trump, he is convinced that this formal recognition of Jerusalem will aid the peace process. How can promoting peace not be Christian?


The ''Peace Plan'' could not be more impossible for both Israelis and Muslims in the Holy Land to accept if they tried to make it so deliberately. It isn't promoting peace because under present circumstances peace is impossible.

Besides, the Christian way of Peace is not the World's way of ''peace'' anyway.

I feel like it is because of these ideas of yours that there really is nothing to say further, your vision of reality is totally different. Do please take these ideas somewhere else at this point. This thread is basically designed by me to comment on the year as it goes with my thoughts on various things, and people are welcome to comment on that to their heart's delight if they wish to.That was the idea anyway, which perhaps was vain as I already have a similar thread.
#15075411
annatar1914 wrote:Many people are concerned about world war or regional war in the Middle East over the General Soleimani assassination.

I attribute this to TDS. I was never worried about it at all. There are many who have joined such forums this year to express their angst about Trump in hopes of influencing an election outcome by hoping that their expressed fear will lead to a contagion of fear.

anntar1914 wrote:And General Soleimani understood his place in the Shia Ummah as a Warrior that makes a mockery of the forms of the Westphalian Nation-State that he and his government acted partly within and partly without. Nobody can honestly tell me that the ''Islamic Iranian Republic'' is the same sort of political entity as say; ''Germany'' or ''Brazil''.

True enough, but you could say the same about regimes friendly to the US and of microstates too. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia isn't really like Germany either. Nor is the Vatican, San Marino, Monaco, Andorra, or Lichtenstein.

annatar1914 wrote:I've spoken before of Barbarism and the end of the Western style Nation-State on other threads, well, here's my absolute proof with this event. It's something that the Magi in the time of the Incarnation would have been most familiar with in their dealings with the earthly rulers in the story.

You and I disagree on socialism. The bigger of the failed states today are often socialist. Look at Venezuela for example.

annatar1914 wrote:It's too bad that so many people don't understand the times they're in, but that too is nothing new historically speaking. We're in a time where the personal is political, and the political personal, and the rule of law and of the common good is jettisoned in favor of tribal politics and the raw application of physical forces.... And spiritual ones too;

Well, I'd say we have something of a cold political war in the United States.

annatar1914 wrote:As Fascism is but the final stage of Capitalism in it's crisis phase, the fact of that crisis and it's development in the present day since 2008 AD, entails a return of an old ideology to put a face on the State intervention into the economy, and the coming resource wars.

I think a huge flaw in Marxian analysis is to conflate industrialism and capitalism. Mass production industrialism faces a crisis, because it can produce more supply than the public demands. That's precisely the crisis we have in place today. It's why I mentioned to you that I disagree with Peter Zeihan's analysis that we necessarily face a tripling in the cost of capital. Such a scenario would spells a global depression--not saying that won't happen either, but I think the globalists will try to forestall it.

annatar1914 wrote:Oh, the Jews will be in the Holy Land, and Persia/Iran will still exist too, but the polities as we know them today will not exist in their present forms, and it will be clearly so evident to many by the end of the year 2020 AD, and why.

I would bet Israel will have more staying power than the Islamic Republic of Iran.

annatar1914 wrote:ISIS will renew it's efforts to conquer the world and engage in a shocking new offensive to attempt to do so once more, and this will be linked to the political instability of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. That kingdom's days are numbered, and it will be replaced by a ISIS/al-Qaida type regime. 2020 AD will show signs of that, with the likely death of King Salman.

MbS is more volatile a leader, as evidenced by his war in Yemen and the oil price war with Russia. He also wants to modernize Saudi Arabia, which will almost certainly destablize the regime as currently configured; hence, his inclination to arrest his brother and other high-ups in the royal family.

annatar1914 wrote:What I mean by this is that first of all, the Vatican had to adapt to the Cold War and post-1945 environment the RCC found itself in at the end of WWII, and basically adopted the language and style of the Liberal ideology then dominant in the Western world, as Fascism had lost and Communism was not truly a possibility.

However, this could also portend a change in leadership in Rome. Ratzinger was pushed out too. The RCC had to adopt the Western line, because it was the political pole that tolerated the RCC whereas the communist party did not. Reagan even leveraged the RCC as a political ally ultimately leveraging Wojtyla and sending an ambassador to the Vatican.

annatar1914 wrote:1. That the revolutionary impulse of the ''Left'' around the world will be absorbed by Shia Islam, and in fact, the ''Left'' will convert to Shia Islam, will defend Iran and the Iranian Revolution in all things, and all their actions will serve to promote and build up the Iranian Islamic Revolution.

I think that's an interesting observation, but perhaps too concrete. They certainly do embrace any bit of Islam that is anti-Western, principally because they are more defined by anti-capitalism than they are by socialism--which suggests spiritual exhaustion and disillusionment on the political left.

annatar1914 wrote:2. On the Reactionary ''Right'', the conservative and traditionalist impulse, and it's latent anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, will be absorbed by Iran and the Iranian Islamic Revolution, with an identical absorbing and conversion process as what is happening on the ''Left''.

Maybe the anti-Semitism? ... However, the conservative and traditional impulse is also being championed in Europe by people like Vladimir Putin. The revival of the Russian Orthodox Church in the last 30 years has been quite a phenomenon. Just because it has not been adopted in Western Europe doesn't mean that it won't happen at some point. The influx of Muslim immigrants from Africa and the Middle East has polarized Western Europe.

Potemkin wrote:By about 400 BC, the world had become as wise as it was ever going to get.

I don't know that I can agree with that. They were well on their way to defining the logical parameters/boundaries of thought. The formalization of Boolean algebra may seem to oversimplify, but it could mechanize and perform more calculations than any prior mathematician. Each year we've seen that phenomenon. For example, each year, the number of pictures taken exceeds the number taken in all the years in prior to the invention of the daguerreotype. Empiricism, deduction, etc. weren't nearly as formalized, but it was certainly highly aristocratic. Having worked in mass storage, it's now easy to build a rack of servers with 4x the storage capacity of the human mind; hence, the new interest in AI.

annatar1914 wrote:''Make America Great Again''.... And the fearful rebuke of Socialism during the SOTU.

If you look at it as a spiritual rallying cry, you can see it as something different. I think your affinity for socialism colors your perception. The political left does not have a positive view of things, unless it involves some progress in rights for people with peculiar sexual identities. They have adopted a dismal view of material progress. So they have more or less lost the affinity of the masses, who long for even communal sacrifice towards a goal like putting a man on the moon. Whereas the left wants people to sacrifice their livelihoods and adopt an austere way of life.

So with today as a point of reference, I think the "woke" virtue signallers are going to get very tired of the social distancing required for combatting a viral epidemic. Their idea of progress involves eating a different ethnic cuisine at each meal, and they will be driven mad by rice and beans. Today, society is materially far richer than when Trump muses that America was great. However, at that time, America was spiritually much more sound than it is today.

annatar1914 wrote:It's either that or we go back 1000 years or so, and give up on the whole idea of genuine human progress.

That's certainly a possibility. However, I look at capitalism more systemically than religiously, and I draw a big distinction between industrial capitalism and the information economy. Keynesianism simply doesn't work anymore, and the establishment 1) can't admit it; and 2) doesn't know how to replace it. Socialist societies don't create internets, iPhones, etc. So they tend to stagnate and get poorer and less prosperous. People live more equally, but socialism lacks dynamism. Hence, it's lack of popular appeal.

foxdemon wrote:Too many elites vying for power, it seems, are detrimental to the heath of an empire.

Right, and they end up creating crisis that require tax dollars to solve, like the human rights movement of our time according to Joe Biden: transgender rights. If that isn't a contrived struggle, I don't know what is--especially in the face of homelessness, addiction and mental illness.

annatar1914 wrote:Scarcity is the primary factor, because if civilization is to exist, people have to be made to realize that if everyone tries to get what they want, all will wind up eventually with nothing, unless some are compelled by others to be satisfied with the lesser shares in return for security.

This is the religion of industrial or material capitalism. Software is not entirely material. It's a language expression that translates into electron patterns that drive microprocessors. I work in open source software--our software is free. You pay for support, not for software. It's ruthlessly competitive, but it has also turned my understanding of capitalism on its head to a degree. Since you can make unlimited copies of software for all practical purposes, it is theoretically non-scarce. Marketed as free open-source software, it's demand is perfectly inelastic on the basis of price; yet, demand is elastic on other dimensions, like usability and ease of use.

See, whereas people like Gates have become fabulously wealthy selling software, people like Linus Torvalds have not. Yet, Torvalds has a greater impact than Microsoft as the internet more or less runs on Linux.

This is why I say that to increase aggregate demand in the future will require fundamental innovations. Would you like a coronavirus vaccine if it were available? Many people would. That would be scarce only for a short period of time, but it would have high demand.

Potemkin wrote:People can now vote in Iraq, but is it really a liberal democracy in any meaningful sense?

Fledgling, but certainly far more liberal than Hussein's Iraq.

Potemkin wrote:I am reminded of a comment made by a Soviet apparachik during the Cold War, who denied that the British Labour Party could be a truly left-wing party representing the interests of the British working class on the basis that, having lost a general election, "they do not immediately proceed to sabotage." :lol:

Today's establishment parties certainly proceed to sabotage each other, but neither really represents the public at large.

Potemkin wrote:It's the same reason why the Roman Emperors like Nero or Commodus kept winning and winning and winning, despite their obvious personal deficiencies. The mob loved them for being who they were - their own transfigured, fantasy selves, kicking the shit out of the mighty and the pompously self-righteous ruling elite.... :lol:

Indeed. That's why you see Biden attacking the voters, calling them liars, fat, full of shit, and the like. Biden represents the Washington establishment. Trump represents the sentiments of the masses.

Potemkin wrote:Absolutely. And the liberals still won't understand why it happened. Lol. The American Republic is entering its death throes, @annatar1914 - I think we both know that.

The American Republic died a century ago. It's the administrative state that is dying now, precisely because it is not a Republic and does not respond to popular will at all--rather regards the people with contempt.

Donna wrote:The difference is that Obama actually looked forward to his genteel retirement while Trump has no choice but to be president for life if he doesn't want to go to jail.

So who would really be responsible for keeping him in power then?

Hindsite wrote:The Trump of God has already completed the goal to "Make America Great Again", but I am not sure that he will be able to "Keep America Great" which is his new campaign slogan.

His lasting accomplishment beyond 2024 is the courts. If he wins again, he will tip the balance of the court solidly toward the conservatives. The spritualists will want to end horrors like abortion. It was Octavian who came up with modern marriage that Justice Kennedy so insipidly dispatched as some sort of expression of affection that was deserving to be extended to homosexuals, etc. The problem with the Welfare State is that to continue its lie, it needs an expanding population and abortion killed that off, while illegal immigration of non-assimilated people kills social cohesion and the ability to rule a stable population. So it may be that the Supreme Court finally does kill off Roe v. Wade, but for far more pragmatic reasons than the evangelicals would have them do it.

annatar1914 wrote:So, you confuse works with faith, the political with the spiritual, and Christian belief with Jewish non-belief. Truly you are a confused man!

The Corporal Works of Mercy are found in Jesus' teachings in the scriptures. It was certainly taught to me being brought up Catholic. That's why I would take in someone who would otherwise be homeless, why I do provide food the hungry, etc. Works and faith are different things, but they aren't hopelessly unrelated.

annatar1914 wrote:I'm not saying Trump cannot be converted nor that he shouldn't be prayed for-for he should as with all earthly rulers-but he is not some quasi-messianic figure that you have made him, and his kingdom, America, is entirely of this world.

Trump's earthly power depends centrally on a number of constituencies, and one of them is evangelical voters who want to see an end to the holocaust of abortion, and more importantly the state's sanction of the practice. Trump--whether through personal conviction or political pragmatism--is headed in that direction. It has big implication both in the material and in the spiritual world.

annatar1914 wrote:But you cannot show where the merely political act of Trump's secular government of moving the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a spiritual work of a Christian leader rather than a Jewish one.

Maybe, but the First Step Act is something he didn't run on or even talk about during the 2016 election. It was his friendship with Kanye West that got Kim Kardashian an audience, and the relationship with Tim Scott that moved that forward and set out to commute unjust sentences. Now, that too can be politically expedient if he can win some black votes, but if he were the malicious racist he's characterized to be in the press, he would never have taken up this effort. Again, that's not saying Trump doesn't have significant character defects. Nobody is perfect, including perfectly imperfect.

annatar1914 wrote:What ''strong resistance'' or ''spiritual battle'' are you talking about? :eh:

Every president before Trump has been told that war would break out if he moved the embassy to Jerusalem. Presidents are immersed in the insidious fear-mongering "advice" of others, and they ultimately have to make a decision. All presidents before Trump cowered to that advice, but Trump did not. That may mean that Trump is merely brash, disrespectful and reckless. However, it may mean he calls bullshit when he sees it, and does what he thinks is the right thing, consequences be damned.
#15075418
blackjack21 wrote:I think a huge flaw in Marxian analysis is to conflate industrialism and capitalism. Mass production industrialism faces a crisis, because it can produce more supply than the public demands. That's precisely the crisis we have in place today. It's why I mentioned to you that I disagree with Peter Zeihan's analysis that we necessarily face a tripling in the cost of capital. Such a scenario would spells a global depression--not saying that won't happen either, but I think the globalists will try to forestall it.

But this actually is a crisis of capitalism rather than of industrialism as such. After, even during a crisis of overproduction most people still have less than they need. They don't demand those products on the marketplace for the simple reason that they cannot afford to buy them at a price which will motivate the capitalists to manufacture them. The Great Depression of the 1930s was a crisis of overproduction, yet most people weren't exactly living lives of material abundance back then. No, any crisis of overproduction is a crisis generated by the nature of the capitalist mode of production rather than by industrialism itself; the very distinction between need and demand is symptomatic of this fact.

I don't know that I can agree with that. They were well on their way to defining the logical parameters/boundaries of thought. The formalization of Boolean algebra may seem to oversimplify, but it could mechanize and perform more calculations than any prior mathematician. Each year we've seen that phenomenon. For example, each year, the number of pictures taken exceeds the number taken in all the years in prior to the invention of the daguerreotype. Empiricism, deduction, etc. weren't nearly as formalized, but it was certainly highly aristocratic. Having worked in mass storage, it's now easy to build a rack of servers with 4x the storage capacity of the human mind; hence, the new interest in AI.

I think you have misunderstood what I meant by the word 'wisdom', in this context. It is not synonymous with 'storage capacity'.
#15075428
annatar1914 wrote:@Hindsite
Irrelevant. I don't think you understand my last post or it's implications.

His Covenant Church, Old and New Covenant Church of the People of God. The modern State of Israel is not that covenant nation/church. This is a fundamental misunderstanding, an error you are not likely to admit is wrong.

Not only that, it was a political act, you have yet to say how it is a spiritual work. For how does doing things for unbelieving Jews according to their religion bring about God's grace in a Christian? It is as absurd as it is blasphemous, insane to a genuine Christian and unbelieving Jew alike.

The spiritual ''Jerusalem'', the Church of God.

You obviously believe in "Replacement Theology".
Did God Replace Israel? Prof. Mishkin Debunks "Replacement Theology"!
#15075508
@blackjack21 , in consideration of the now almost-forgotten Soleimani assassination (keep in mind, the rocket attacks on American bases in Iraq continue, as does the retaliation), and the Liberal alliance (in effect) with Iran, you said;

I attribute this to TDS. I was never worried about it at all. There are many who have joined such forums this year to express their angst about Trump in hopes of influencing an election outcome by hoping that their expressed fear will lead to a contagion of fear.


Oh absolutely. But old hands like ourselves recognized what was going on early on. These clowns are going to be surprised soon enough.

Regarding the Non-Westphalian nature of the Iranian Islamic Republic and what that portends;


True enough, but you could say the same about regimes friendly to the US and of microstates too. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia isn't really like Germany either. Nor is the Vatican, San Marino, Monaco, Andorra, or Lichtenstein
.

Expect more of it, as time goes by, not less.


You and I disagree on socialism. The bigger of the failed states today are often socialist. Look at Venezuela for example.


Come on now, my friend. You know Venezuela is not Socialist in reality. If we could go back in time to find the closest economic analogue to today's Venezuela, it would be Mussolini's Fascist Italy, wouldn't you agree?

Concerning the 'raw application of political force and tribal politics' as I called it, you said;

Well, I'd say we have something of a cold political war in the United States.


remains to be seen if it'll go ''hot''.

On the crisis long-term of Capitalism;


I think a huge flaw in Marxian analysis is to conflate industrialism and capitalism. Mass production industrialism faces a crisis, because it can produce more supply than the public demands. That's precisely the crisis we have in place today. It's why I mentioned to you that I disagree with Peter Zeihan's analysis that we necessarily face a tripling in the cost of capital. Such a scenario would spells a global depression--not saying that won't happen either, but I think the globalists will try to forestall it.


You mean, the same ones who are fighting the economic autarky of President Trump, among others?

Survival prospects;


I would bet Israel will have more staying power than the Islamic Republic of Iran.


I agree. But one won't long survive the other in it's present form. Speaking of which when I mentioned Saudi Arabia's doom;

MbS is more volatile a leader, as evidenced by his war in Yemen and the oil price war with Russia. He also wants to modernize Saudi Arabia, which will almost certainly destablize the regime as currently configured; hence, his inclination to arrest his brother and other high-ups in the royal family.


Yeah, Saudi Arabia and the other Oil Sheikdoms are toast.

On my analysis of Vatican goings-on post 1945;

However, this could also portend a change in leadership in Rome. Ratzinger was pushed out too. The RCC had to adopt the Western line, because it was the political pole that tolerated the RCC whereas the communist party did not. Reagan even leveraged the RCC as a political ally ultimately leveraging Wojtyla and sending an ambassador to the Vatican.


Now that the ''Western Line'' itself is changing, moving away from Liberal ideology, you can certainly expect a similar sea change in the Vatican, definitely putting an end to the Vatican Council II Ideological camouflage. Started already with few noticing it, but likely everyone will see it in 2020.


On my prediction of conversion to Shia Islam on the Liberal part in the West;

I think that's an interesting observation, but perhaps too concrete. They certainly do embrace any bit of Islam that is anti-Western, principally because they are more defined by anti-capitalism than they are by socialism--which suggests spiritual exhaustion and disillusionment on the political left.


If the Iranian leadership fails, with concurrent spiritual exhaustion and disillusionment, you're probably right. Otherwise it'll be the Sunni Salafist/Wahhabist Jihadi organizations that will reap the benefit.

Short leap from ''Antifa'' to ISIS, shorter than many will admit to themselves.

On the actual Right and it's philo-Islamic proclivities in turn;

Maybe the anti-Semitism? ... However, the conservative and traditional impulse is also being championed in Europe by people like Vladimir Putin. The revival of the Russian Orthodox Church in the last 30 years has been quite a phenomenon. Just because it has not been adopted in Western Europe doesn't mean that it won't happen at some point.


I may be biased because I am Russian Orthodox, but what you're saying is possible, at least in Eastern Europe. I expect that the RCC will draw strength for the spiritual RCC reconquest of Western Europe from Poland, Hungary and Western Ukraine primarily.


The influx of Muslim immigrants from Africa and the Middle East has polarized Western Europe.


As could be expected.


Now, as to Trump's very Schmiddtian perception of who his enemies are, as Socialists;

If you look at it as a spiritual rallying cry, you can see it as something different. I think your affinity for socialism colors your perception. The political left does not have a positive view of things, unless it involves some progress in rights for people with peculiar sexual identities. They have adopted a dismal view of material progress. So they have more or less lost the affinity of the masses, who long for even communal sacrifice towards a goal like putting a man on the moon. Whereas the left wants people to sacrifice their livelihoods and adopt an austere way of life.


Well, for me and for all practical purposes there is no ''Left'' left. The dolts who fill that niche in the West now are like a coalition of the damned, quite frankly. The Left that remains in the Eastern Europe would be considered a ''Red-Brown Alliance'' by these degenerates, consisting of far too many Nationalists and Christians, purely Socialist though they are, way too devoted to traditional family, God, and national patriotism.

So with today as a point of reference, I think the "woke" virtue signallers are going to get very tired of the social distancing required for combatting a viral epidemic. Their idea of progress involves eating a different ethnic cuisine at each meal, and they will be driven mad by rice and beans. Today, society is materially far richer than when Trump muses that America was great. However, at that time, America was spiritually much more sound than it is today.


This could well be the breaking point.




That's certainly a possibility. However, I look at capitalism more systemically than religiously, and I draw a big distinction between industrial capitalism and the information economy. Keynesianism simply doesn't work anymore, and the establishment 1) can't admit it; and 2) doesn't know how to replace it. Socialist societies don't create internets, iPhones, etc. So they tend to stagnate and get poorer and less prosperous. People live more equally, but socialism lacks dynamism. Hence, it's lack of popular appeal.


It remains to be seen in my mind whether it's possible to have an entire working society (outside of Monasteries) that can sustain itself as Socialist, I still think it is. ''Dynamism'' is not lacking in Socialist society; look at what the Soviets did in beating Fascism and modernizing Russia in a single generation..

(Skipped for now, a side discussion best on it's own thread, on Socialism and the crisis of Capitalism, and on faith and works)




Trump's earthly power depends centrally on a number of constituencies, and one of them is evangelical voters who want to see an end to the holocaust of abortion, and more importantly the state's sanction of the practice. Trump--whether through personal conviction or political pragmatism--is headed in that direction. It has big implication both in the material and in the spiritual world.


And indeed, I intimated as much to Hindsite, Trump's dependence on the Evangelical vote in critical states.


Maybe, but the First Step Act is something he didn't run on or even talk about during the 2016 election. It was his friendship with Kanye West that got Kim Kardashian an audience, and the relationship with Tim Scott that moved that forward and set out to commute unjust sentences. Now, that too can be politically expedient if he can win some black votes, but if he were the malicious racist he's characterized to be in the press, he would never have taken up this effort. Again, that's not saying Trump doesn't have significant character defects. Nobody is perfect, including perfectly imperfect.


I can agree with this as well. See, while in sane times i'd simply be opposed to the man politically, in today's world because of the Pro-Life and his real non-racist attitude in contrast to the Democratic party that basically nullifies my opposition. In this day and age, there are real Christian litmus tests beyond which we cannot go.


Every president before Trump has been told that war would break out if he moved the embassy to Jerusalem. Presidents are immersed in the insidious fear-mongering "advice" of others, and they ultimately have to make a decision. All presidents before Trump cowered to that advice, but Trump did not. That may mean that Trump is merely brash, disrespectful and reckless. However, it may mean he calls bullshit when he sees it, and does what he thinks is the right thing, consequences be damned.


I'm not opposed to the embassy change on that account, I simply object to the reading of it given by evangelicals.
Last edited by annatar1914 on 15 Mar 2020 20:19, edited 1 time in total.
#15075509
Hindsite wrote:You obviously believe in "Replacement Theology".
Did God Replace Israel? Prof. Mishkin Debunks "Replacement Theology"!


You're absolutely right, along with every single Christian from 33 AD to about the 1900's, and most still don't follow your heresy. ''Prof. Mishkin''... Hmm, could be biased? Absolutely.

Besides, God didn't ''replace'' Israel, but replaced who generally constitutes Israel, the Church of God. The Church has always existed, and has always been Israel, the Church of the Old Covenant and the New.

the Jews ain't it. One day they'll rejoin the Church though.
#15075518
annatar1914 wrote:Come on now, my friend. You know Venezuela is not Socialist in reality. If we could go back in time to find the closest economic analogue to today's Venezuela, it would be Mussolini's Fascist Italy, wouldn't you agree?

I think that's an insult to Mussolini. The apologia for Moose was that "he made the trains run on time." That cannot be said of Maduro. Can you tell us of a society that is or was socialist? Or are we dealing with the unicorn vomiting rainbows again? "No true Scotsman" type of stuff?

annatar1914 wrote:You mean, the same ones who are fighting the economic autarky of President Trump, among others?

Yes, but I think the globalists have did/do not understand borders, language, culture or the nationalism upon which capitalism depends for corporations, currency, property rights and the enforcement of contracts.

annatar1914 wrote:But one won't long survive the other in it's present form.

Well that's true of virtually every nation, people, etc.

annatar1914 wrote:Yeah, Saudi Arabia and the other Oil Sheikdoms are toast.

The UAE is surprisingly more pragmatic, but I don't think they escape a shrinking global population either. Even the Arabs prefer a more temperate climate.

annatar1914 wrote:I may be biased because I am Russian Orthodox, but what you're saying is possible, at least in Eastern Europe.

That's the opinion of Dr Steve Turley. (Hint, listen to the first 20 seconds of his video and then skip forward toward the next at least minute of commercial plugs before he gets to his topics) Much of his stuff is daily news reaction and blowing sunshine and optimism for traditionalism, conservatism, nationalism, etc. However, once in awhile he says something profound.

I think the coronavirus scare shows the limits on what governments can do for people, and that much of what is important in life cannot be provided by the government.

annatar1914 wrote:As could be expected.

Do you think there was actual malice on the part of people like Merkel? She seems genuinely distressed that she's more or less ruined the EU. However, I think if you overlay their actions with what Peter Zeihan has been saying about demography, they may have done something unthinkable--embraced abstraction to the point of absurdity by importing populations to save the welfare state, which is dependent on a rising population.

annatar1914 wrote:Well, for me and for all practical purposes there is no ''Left'' left. The dolts who fill that niche in the West now are like a coalition of the damned, quite frankly. The Left that remains in the Eastern Europe would be considered a ''Red-Brown Alliance'' by these degenerates, consisting of far too many Nationalists and Christians, purely Socialist though they are, way too devoted to traditional family, God, and national patriotism.

Hmm... I'll have to think more about that. I do agree that the "left" in the US has become something of a self-parody. Joe Biden's assertion that transgender rights is the human rights struggle of our time and there is no room for disagreement is a sort of "jump the shark" moment for the political left. They just don't have anything substantive to offer the masses.

annatar1914 wrote:It remains to be seen in my mind whether it's possible to have an entire working society (outside of Monasteries) that can sustain itself as Socialist, I still think it is. ''Dynamism'' is not lacking in Socialist society; look at what the Soviets did in beating Fascism and modernizing Russia in a single generation..

I don't want to call that non-dynamic, but it was in many respects reactionary rather than organic. That's somewhat like the American Civil War being used to stamp out slavery. It got done, but with enormous violence.

annatar1914 wrote:And indeed, I intimated as much to Hindsite, Trump's dependence on the Evangelical vote in critical states.

I don't see Trump as an inherently bad guy, but rather an inherently flawed guy who for whatever reason is finding himself on the right side of a number of issues to the horror of the more nihilistic types. So when Trump is finally out of power, I would not be surprised to see them exalting Trump much the way they wax on about Ronald Reagan.
#15075532
@blackjack21 , regarding my ''Venezuela; Socialist or Fascist/Corpratist?" quip;

I think that's an insult to Mussolini. The apologia for Moose was that "he made the trains run on time." That cannot be said of Maduro.


The guy's a former bus driver, for Pete's sake. I never bought into enthusiasm for Chavez nor for Maduro, really. Mussolini was actually brilliant by comparison, and Vladimir Lenin actually mournfully spoke of what a shame the Fascist takeover in Italy was, because Mussolini was such a good Socialist for so long... And frankly, I think advances happen where and when they happen for a reason.


Can you tell us of a society that is or was socialist? Or are we dealing with the unicorn vomiting rainbows again? "No true Scotsman" type of stuff?


I'm not one of these Utopian types, where failures aren't failures. Civilization's transition to Socialism is going to be like It's historical transitions in the past from one mode of production to another; fits and starts and stops, reversals and leaps forwards, ugliness and messiness, evil and fanaticism, wars and mass murder and failures aplenty.

On the expectation that the Globalists might be able to salvage Neo-Liberal Capitalism;

Yes, but I think the globalists have did/do not understand borders, language, culture or the nationalism upon which capitalism depends for corporations, currency, property rights and the enforcement of contracts.


No surprise but I am a Statist, and I would agree with Schumpeter among others even that the managerial state necessarily tends towards Socialism as the solution (''Socialism'' being the worker control and collective ownership of the economic means of production in a society), that because of these factors the Globalists do not wish to understand that Nationalism (and the State which holds the Nation together) is not their friend, or Capitalism's friend for very long either.


Well that's true of virtually every nation, people, etc.


Yes, only a few generations at most. But can you imagine the geopolitical vacuum made by an Israeli and Iranian collapse, for example?


The UAE is surprisingly more pragmatic, but I don't think they escape a shrinking global population either. Even the Arabs prefer a more temperate climate.


They can survive if they place themselves as what they are; the reasonably comfortable spot between where people are leaving, to where they are going. Petra was a similar spot for the same reason and the Nabatean Arabs ruled there for centuries.


That's the opinion of Dr Steve Turley. (Hint, listen to the first 20 seconds of his video and then skip forward toward the next at least minute of commercial plugs before he gets to his topics) Much of his stuff is daily news reaction and blowing sunshine and optimism for traditionalism, conservatism, nationalism, etc. However, once in awhile he says something profound.


Yeah, he's alright, knows what he's talking about at least which is refreshing and minimal in the wishful thinking overtaking the facts.

I think the coronavirus scare shows the limits on what governments can do for people, and that much of what is important in life cannot be provided by the government.


All politics is local, is what it comes down to, even on my Neo-Soviet side of affairs.


Do you think there was actual malice on the part of people like Merkel? She seems genuinely distressed that she's more or less ruined the EU. However, I think if you overlay their actions with what Peter Zeihan has been saying about demography, they may have done something unthinkable--embraced abstraction to the point of absurdity by importing populations to save the welfare state, which is dependent on a rising population.


I'm not one of these people who thinks ''original sin'' is not a thing, so I have to consider malice as a possibility, someone wanting to spark a reaction for their own purposes which might have little to do with their purposes as stated. Kind of like P-2's ''Strategy of Tension'' in Italy and elsewhere in the 1970's.


Hmm... I'll have to think more about that. I do agree that the "left" in the US has become something of a self-parody. Joe Biden's assertion that transgender rights is the human rights struggle of our time and there is no room for disagreement is a sort of "jump the shark" moment for the political left. They just don't have anything substantive to offer the masses.


Yes, and it's going to reflect in the polls. And definitely the polls; because I can't see anyone trading ballots for bullets and engaging in civil war over transgender rights. Some out there may want to kill over just about anything, but few if any want to die for these issues though.


I don't want to call that non-dynamic, but it was in many respects reactionary rather than organic. That's somewhat like the American Civil War being used to stamp out slavery. It got done, but with enormous violence.


Societal change on any significant level requires enormous violence, because there's always entrenched interests involved in maintaining things as they are.

I don't see Trump as an inherently bad guy, but rather an inherently flawed guy who for whatever reason is finding himself on the right side of a number of issues to the horror of the more nihilistic types. So when Trump is finally out of power, I would not be surprised to see them exalting Trump much the way they wax on about Ronald Reagan.


The main thing I try to keep in mind about him is that his enemies are like his best friends, because they can't get him out of their heads and think objectively about who his supporters really are and why he keeps winning.
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