Church... - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

An atheist-free area for those of religious belief to discuss religious topics.

Moderator: PoFo Agora Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. Religious topics may be discussed here or in The Agora. However, this forum is intended specifically as an area for those with religious belief to discuss religion without threads being derailed by atheist arguments. Please respect that. Political topics regarding religion belong in the Religion forum in the Political Issues section.
User avatar
By XDU
#15207288
I don't really want to talk about God here. That's not the point.

The point is why people don't go to church because they're sick and tired of cliquey congregations. They're sick and tired of people jockeying for status, interpreting scripture the way they want, and making mockeries of others from language arts.

It's like going to school. It's a LOT like going to school, but people never grew up... kind of like social media these days with so many 13 year olds going on 30, 14 year olds going on 40, 15 year olds going on 50, and 16 year olds going on 60.

Just... why... why bother going to church these days? Nobody has a serious take on faith, piety, or grace anymore. It's all just about going through the motions, doing what's "expected" of you, and keeping up with appearances.

It's a club. How do clubs work? You're either compatible with the membership and fit in, or you don't. If you don't, then... the members tell you to go find another club...

...except in church, people tell you that you're not faithful if you don't persist. It's your fault for not being faithful according to them. You're obviously out of touch with God if you don't do what they say when it comes to their interpretation of the word.

It's literally just like language arts teachers giving you bad grades because you didn't read the book the way they wanted, and you get in trouble in school because those teachers know the lawyers in town who know the staff and they all have a culture on what it means to be unruly.

I don't mind authority. You need authorities to make organizations work, but what I do mind is when people play games with the authorship behind authority. The words can be interpreted this way, so you have to interpret them this way... unless you manipulate those around you to interpret them otherwise.

AREN'T WE NOT SUPPOSED TO MANIPULATE PEOPLE?

Just so much ugh... it's all a joke. Literally, that manipulation is all about making people laugh, and if you don't, then people in church tell you to fall in line or go away...

...just like school. Teaching, preaching, same thing.
User avatar
By noemon
#15207289
Churches are empty and very few people attend, churches are not setting the moral agenda in most western societies. They are totally irrelevant.

Who is setting the moral agenda, would be a better question, I reckon.

Also I do not know of any priests that chastise you if you do not read the scripture or if you do not read it properly.
By pugsville
#15207323
XDU wrote:I don't really want to talk about God here. That's not the point.

The point is why people don't go to church because they're sick and tired of cliquey congregations. They're sick and tired of people jockeying for status, interpreting scripture the way they want, and making mockeries of others from language arts.

It's like going to school. It's a LOT like going to school, but people never grew up... kind of like social media these days with so many 13 year olds going on 30, 14 year olds going on 40, 15 year olds going on 50, and 16 year olds going on 60.

Just... why... why bother going to church these days? Nobody has a serious take on faith, piety, or grace anymore. It's all just about going through the motions, doing what's "expected" of you, and keeping up with appearances.

It's a club. How do clubs work? You're either compatible with the membership and fit in, or you don't. If you don't, then... the members tell you to go find another club...

...except in church, people tell you that you're not faithful if you don't persist. It's your fault for not being faithful according to them. You're obviously out of touch with God if you don't do what they say when it comes to their interpretation of the word.

It's literally just like language arts teachers giving you bad grades because you didn't read the book the way they wanted, and you get in trouble in school because those teachers know the lawyers in town who know the staff and they all have a culture on what it means to be unruly.

I don't mind authority. You need authorities to make organizations work, but what I do mind is when people play games with the authorship behind authority. The words can be interpreted this way, so you have to interpret them this way... unless you manipulate those around you to interpret them otherwise.

AREN'T WE NOT SUPPOSED TO MANIPULATE PEOPLE?

Just so much ugh... it's all a joke. Literally, that manipulation is all about making people laugh, and if you don't, then people in church tell you to fall in line or go away...

...just like school. Teaching, preaching, same thing.



Church and religion were solely formed to manipulate and control people. That is their function.
User avatar
By XDU
#15207341
noemon wrote:Churches are empty and very few people attend, churches are not setting the moral agenda in most western societies. They are totally irrelevant.

Who is setting the moral agenda, would be a better question, I reckon.

Also I do not know of any priests that chastise you if you do not read the scripture or if you do not read it properly.


Attendance has been awful, yea.

I don't know if I'd say they don't set moral agenda though. What I have noticed is among lawyers, they tend to have a lot of their morals setup by the church they're raised in, whether they approve of it or not, and especially if they marry within or into one when garnishing the approval of their beloved's parents and family.

It's more of an upper class matter in which people imply what they find pragmatic, especially among evangelicals who don't follow a fixed institutional interpretation but rather are free to interpret scripture how they want to imply how they want their town, district, etc. governed.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15207372
There is an old saying, "the reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated".

Is religion dying?

No. It is growing. Between now an 2050 Christianity will grow by nearly 800 million people. Islam much more than that eventually passing Christianity as the world's largest religions by 2070.

So let's get something straight from the start. And pay close attention to this because you have been sold a bill of liberal goods:

Looking at protestants as an example.

The percent of people identifying as protestant in the US, since 1970 has declined from 62% to 51% in 2010. The number of people identifying as protestant has GROWN by a whopping 28 million people. So you tell me? is religion dying? Not by a long shot.

So what IS happening. Putting it into incorrect but almost universally accepted terms, liberal protestant denominations are declining rapidly. But the people are not going from Baptist to atheist. They are going conservative.

Why liberal churches like the Episcopal church has lost nearly 1/2 of its membership since 1970 the conservative Chruch of God in Christ has grown by a whopping 1194%. Evangelical Free Church 790%, Pentacostal Churches 430% and even the very large Southern Baptist Convention has grown by 46%.

So let's lay that to rest. Churches are not shrinking, they are changing. My own group, unaffiliated, Christian and dedicated to ministry to the poor through feeding and medical care, attracts more volunteers on Sunday sometimes than we can use. And there are a few of us old timers but a great many young, educated and at the top of their game. Many college students. And almost all of them in the sciences. Go figure.

And no it is not religion's job to "manipulate" people. That is a cheap shot and frankly anti-intellectual. People are just tired of going to churches that do not do anything except rehash old denominational differences. Greeting, hymn, bible reading, hymn, sermon, collection of money, announcements, hymn and now you are tanked up on righteousness for another week.

People basically want two things. They want to have a relationship with God that allows them to get help with life's furniture when the breaks are beating the boys. They want to see God's work actually happen. Jesus first and foremost preached love for our neighbors and care for the poor and downtrodden. So my church does not have a prayer service on Sunday, we just put people to work, cooking, handing out clothing, caring for pets, and offering a free medical clinic. Of course people come flocking to us for help. We line up homeless people around the block to get food and run our asses off in the clinic seeing some very ill people. There is hardly a week goes by that a life is not saved in the literal sense of the word. But equally, the volunteers, our congregation if you will, come to us in big numbers seeking real Christianity; even if some of them identify as Jews, Muslims or none-of-the-above. We do not collect money either. We don't need it. We have no paid staff, operate on a loaned location, and feed people on what people donate. But not a penny in cash.

For the Christians who might read this consider this Bible verse:
Then a certain ruler asked Him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother.’”

21“All these I have kept from my youth,” he said.

22On hearing this, Jesus told him, “You still lack one thing: Sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”


Notice the Jesus did not ask the man to give him the money or bring it with him. He said get rid of the money THEN come follow Me.

He goes on to say that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. But remember the first part. Sell all you own and give it to the poor, THEN......

So two things. I am sorry that your experience of religion is unfulfilling but I am not surprised. When I went to a mainstream church, I only liked half of the people, a third of the hymns and didn't see the good works, (if any) up close and personal. Sure they "minister" to their own people by Baptizing them, Marrying them and Burying them. Maybe visit them in the hospital.

But if, for you, religion means doing what God wants you to do in service to your fellow man, there is nothing stopping you from doing it. Find a group like ours that actually works with people helping them. We happen to be a church. But maybe you can exercise your faith by volunteering at the local hospital. Maybe you could visit people in nursing homes. Find some homeless guy on the street and buy him dinner. Deliver meals on wheels. But you say that is not religion it is just volunteering. So here is the secret.

Before you leave to do your volunteer work, say a prayer thanking God for the opportunity to do His work and asking him to put you onto someone who needs a little more help. Then help them. Feed them. Heal them. Visit them when they are alone. Whatever it is you do. Then when you are finished you say another prayer for the people you met and thanking God for allowing you to do what you did. That's Jesus' kind of religion for sure.

And here is what will happen. You will get captured. You will come to like the people you are helping. You will find more and more people needing your help and more and better ways to help them. Pretty soon it won't just be Sunday. It will be frequently. And THAT is the very essence of a Christ centered life. Sing a hymn if you want to. I hum Taylor Swift songs under my surgical mask. Heavenly.
User avatar
By Unthinking Majority
#15207385
noemon wrote:Churches are empty and very few people attend, churches are not setting the moral agenda in most western societies. They are totally irrelevant.

Who is setting the moral agenda, would be a better question, I reckon.

Parents, teachers, peers, mass media.

It's good to live by some kind of moral code, and stick by it. I think it's better to think for yourself personally, but some people can't handle it, are not equipped for it, or are lazy.

I think there's value in believing in a God generally, it gives people hope and something to lean on when all is lost.
User avatar
By Cartertonian
#15207394
Drlee wrote:Sing a hymn if you want to. I hum Taylor Swift songs under my surgical mask. Heavenly.

One of my late mother's favourite anecdotes was about me, aged about three, lustily singing, "Lily the Pink" by Scaffold in church because it was the only song I knew and I wanted to join in with everyone else! :lol:

But 'The Church' (RC in my case) set the tone for the rest of my life.

Being RC, I got sent to RC schools and even as a five year old I found myself questioning what I was being told. When the nuns told us things like, "everyone who isn't RC will go to Hell...and the protestants will be at the head of the line", even at that tender age that seemed profoundly un-Christian and to fly in the face of what I had learned about Jesus.

Over many years, I arrived at the conclusion that just as Carl von Clausewitz intimated that, "war is politics by other means", so the Church was also politics by other means. A device to exert social control over the population.

I also concluded that my personal spiritual stance was 'pantheist agnostic'. I have a sense (call it a belief if you will) that there is 'something' out there, beyond human understanding, but that which the major faiths call 'god' or gods' is no different from what the earliest animistic and pagan spiritual belief systems sensed of their own world. I don't believe God made man in his own image. I believe man made God in his own image, to suit his own ends and to call upon as a divine and absolute authority to cite in enforcing what were really secular, social rules and regulations.

Like you Drlee, I have encountered many sincere Christian followers who are an example to all. Through my military career I have worked with many military chaplains and still count some amongst my lifelong friends. My wife was churchwarden at our local church until we had to move (I was posted) and her church was a welcoming place attended mostly by good people who did Christ's work all the time, rather than ticking a box on Sundays. But 'The Church' has a lot to answer for throughout history and for the most part that is owed to elements within it that are just like politicians - seeking control and power over their fellow humans.
User avatar
By noemon
#15207399
Social control over the population is exerted regardless of the presence of an organised religion.

Social control did not start with religion nor will it end with it. Religion is unashamed and open about its effect on social guidance and as such it is a thing that can be deconstructed as it happened to happen.

This is an extremely important argument. Today we live our way of lives according to the precepts of a modern religion that is being pumped into our field of view regardless of where we look at, which is far more organized and efficient than any static religious body without even being static which makes it almost impossible to pin down for deconstruction and critique.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15207407
Unthinking Majority wrote:Parents, teachers, peers, mass media.

It's good to live by some kind of moral code, and stick by it. I think it's better to think for yourself personally, but some people can't handle it, are not equipped for it, or are lazy.

I think there's value in believing in a God generally, it gives people hope and something to lean on when all is lost.

Image
User avatar
By Sandzak
#15207417
As far as I know in Islam and Christianity if you do not pay as long as you are alive the religous tax you dp not get a priest to give you a religous burial.

Fucking sad an atheist burial :D
User avatar
By Unthinking Majority
#15207465
noemon wrote:This is an extremely important argument. Today we live our way of lives according to the precepts of a modern religion that is being pumped into our field of view regardless of where we look at, which is far more organized and efficient than any static religious body without even being static which makes it almost impossible to pin down for deconstruction and critique.

What is this "modern religion" you speak of?
User avatar
By Drlee
#15207472
But 'The Church' has a lot to answer for throughout history and for the most part that is owed to elements within it that are just like politicians - seeking control and power over their fellow humans.


No doubt about this. And one has to conclude that the more traditional religions seem to be turning a blind eye to past injustices and being intransigent about their more sticky dogma. I do not say that modern fundamentalist groups are a breath of fresh air with regard to the mission of the church. They seem to be mostly interested in growing the flock. Not a of ministry (in the truest sense of the word) going on there. "Come to church, get saved (an event rather than a process) and contribute financially to the church". Lather, rinse, repeat. But as you did @Cartertonian, I found these pockets of essential Christianity and they shine above the bickering about dogma, or even guilt from previous sins of the church. (I said that poorly but you get what I mean.)

noemon wrote:
This is an extremely important argument. Today we live our way of lives according to the precepts of a modern religion that is being pumped into our field of view regardless of where we look at, which is far more organized and efficient than any static religious body without even being static which makes it almost impossible to pin down for deconstruction and critique.


If by "modern religion" you are referring to the evangelical movement I completely agree. And I would claim that this is even worse than that. They not only won't be pinned down on their beliefs and actions, they do not even care to explain anything.

We know that new believers want rules. Frequently that is what they are walking in the door to find. They want to know how to behave to be happy and get on God's good boy list. And frequently they need help with a crisis. These churches are good with this. They give one a roadmap of behaviors and beliefs that, if followed unquestioningly, will lead to all three. Just don't dig too deep. The problem is that just as Cartertonian (and I by the way) came to a position of questioning or more, these beliefs they are selling often do not stand up to time. They just don't deliver.

So suppose that one read the New Testament and decided to create a Christian denomination dedicated to doing what Jesus said to do, completely separate from current religious sects, what would it look like? I think our group is pretty much that model. Basically, take care of the poor and ill, while knowing you are attending a Christian church, and let the dogma work itself out. In other words, start with works and trust God to make it work. Random question. Do you ever feel closer to God than when you are praying for someone else?

Forever we Christians have begun with the notion that saving souls is our most important "work". Rightfully so I suppose but that begs the question. Why? For millennia the answer was to get them Baptized and in the ____________church preferably. Our belief is that we get them doing God's work and then, slowly in most cases, let them realize the theology that is behind it. Not the organization, the theology. It occurs to me that we don't really talk about "membership" at all. Indeed in more than a decade of doing this work several times each week, we have never had any formal church membership event. If someone want "in" they are just informed that they have been "in" since the day they first showed up. There are three of us to do weddings and funerals and who are happy to speak to people and groups about our work. One is the pastor by name and is an ordained minister previously with a major denomination. Pretty loose.

But The question that, for me, became pretty obvious is this..."Do we really need more people claiming Christianity and attending churches once a week? Or do we need, perhaps fewer people, doing what Jesus told us to do and acting as an example for others. It seems to me that if the goal is to get a net increase in "Christians" as defined as followers of Christ's teachings, the later works better than the former.

Wouldn't it be great if the term "reverend" was used to refer to one worthy of reverence by example, rather than being a title earned by getting hired for a job?
User avatar
By XDU
#15207712
Drlee wrote:There is an old saying, "the reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated".

Is religion dying?

No. It is growing. Between now an 2050 Christianity will grow by nearly 800 million people. Islam much more than that eventually passing Christianity as the world's largest religions by 2070.

So let's get something straight from the start. And pay close attention to this because you have been sold a bill of liberal goods:

Looking at protestants as an example.

The percent of people identifying as protestant in the US, since 1970 has declined from 62% to 51% in 2010. The number of people identifying as protestant has GROWN by a whopping 28 million people. So you tell me? is religion dying? Not by a long shot.

So what IS happening. Putting it into incorrect but almost universally accepted terms, liberal protestant denominations are declining rapidly. But the people are not going from Baptist to atheist. They are going conservative.

Why liberal churches like the Episcopal church has lost nearly 1/2 of its membership since 1970 the conservative Chruch of God in Christ has grown by a whopping 1194%. Evangelical Free Church 790%, Pentacostal Churches 430% and even the very large Southern Baptist Convention has grown by 46%.

So let's lay that to rest. Churches are not shrinking, they are changing. My own group, unaffiliated, Christian and dedicated to ministry to the poor through feeding and medical care, attracts more volunteers on Sunday sometimes than we can use. And there are a few of us old timers but a great many young, educated and at the top of their game. Many college students. And almost all of them in the sciences. Go figure.

And no it is not religion's job to "manipulate" people. That is a cheap shot and frankly anti-intellectual. People are just tired of going to churches that do not do anything except rehash old denominational differences. Greeting, hymn, bible reading, hymn, sermon, collection of money, announcements, hymn and now you are tanked up on righteousness for another week.

People basically want two things. They want to have a relationship with God that allows them to get help with life's furniture when the breaks are beating the boys. They want to see God's work actually happen. Jesus first and foremost preached love for our neighbors and care for the poor and downtrodden. So my church does not have a prayer service on Sunday, we just put people to work, cooking, handing out clothing, caring for pets, and offering a free medical clinic. Of course people come flocking to us for help. We line up homeless people around the block to get food and run our asses off in the clinic seeing some very ill people. There is hardly a week goes by that a life is not saved in the literal sense of the word. But equally, the volunteers, our congregation if you will, come to us in big numbers seeking real Christianity; even if some of them identify as Jews, Muslims or none-of-the-above. We do not collect money either. We don't need it. We have no paid staff, operate on a loaned location, and feed people on what people donate. But not a penny in cash.

For the Christians who might read this consider this Bible verse:


Notice the Jesus did not ask the man to give him the money or bring it with him. He said get rid of the money THEN come follow Me.

He goes on to say that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. But remember the first part. Sell all you own and give it to the poor, THEN......

So two things. I am sorry that your experience of religion is unfulfilling but I am not surprised. When I went to a mainstream church, I only liked half of the people, a third of the hymns and didn't see the good works, (if any) up close and personal. Sure they "minister" to their own people by Baptizing them, Marrying them and Burying them. Maybe visit them in the hospital.

But if, for you, religion means doing what God wants you to do in service to your fellow man, there is nothing stopping you from doing it. Find a group like ours that actually works with people helping them. We happen to be a church. But maybe you can exercise your faith by volunteering at the local hospital. Maybe you could visit people in nursing homes. Find some homeless guy on the street and buy him dinner. Deliver meals on wheels. But you say that is not religion it is just volunteering. So here is the secret.

Before you leave to do your volunteer work, say a prayer thanking God for the opportunity to do His work and asking him to put you onto someone who needs a little more help. Then help them. Feed them. Heal them. Visit them when they are alone. Whatever it is you do. Then when you are finished you say another prayer for the people you met and thanking God for allowing you to do what you did. That's Jesus' kind of religion for sure.

And here is what will happen. You will get captured. You will come to like the people you are helping. You will find more and more people needing your help and more and better ways to help them. Pretty soon it won't just be Sunday. It will be frequently. And THAT is the very essence of a Christ centered life. Sing a hymn if you want to. I hum Taylor Swift songs under my surgical mask. Heavenly.


There's a lot of interesting points here on a lot of levels. I'm not going to qualm over the Muslim question since I don't really see many around here (and probably more Hindus than Muslims, but whatever). Same thing for the international question. I've driven people to all sorts of churches and I would agree that foreigners are especially religious, but in proportion to all the people I drive around, they're still a remarkably small population. If they're succeeding around the world, good for them.

I don't mind the charity either, but you don't really need a church for charity. If some people want to be progressive atheists who just form a club to help people, they can do that without appealing to God. That's probably why so many liberals leave their faith - they figure they can help others without needing to go through God to do so.

What I mind is the "relationship with God" matter where some people say or imply they're closer to God than others because it's just blatantly obvious. It becomes a matter of manners where people start accusing each other of being graceless, sinful, or viceful. People start calling each other arrogant, pretentious, or condescending and that they need to be more modest, humble, or grateful.

It makes the ordinary social scene outside of service and volunteering estranging.
User avatar
By Unthinking Majority
#15207715
Immigrants are the ones keeping religion alive in the West. Hispanics are also good Catholics generally, same with Filipinos. Religion among the whites has plummeted because most of it is old world superstitious bullshit used for social control and we have better education in the West so a lot more people are now smart enough not to believe the hogwash compared to their grandparents who may not have even finished high school.
By Rich
#15207742
I believe in Lakshmi because she works. Yahweh on the other hand as far as I can make out, is just a silly figment of people's imagination. What has Yahweh ever contributed to maths, science or technology?
User avatar
By Drlee
#15207795
Unthinking Majority wrote:Immigrants are the ones keeping religion alive in the West. Hispanics are also good Catholics generally, same with Filipinos. Religion among the whites has plummeted because most of it is old world superstitious bullshit used for social control and we have better education in the West so a lot more people are now smart enough not to believe the hogwash compared to their grandparents who may not have even finished high school.


Fuck you. When you have as much education as I do, get back to me. Actually, in our group, you would find it hard to find someone without a college degree other than the current college students who volunteer in large numbers.

But you know what UM? If you should fall on hard times and need our help, we would be there for you, no questions asked.

@XDU

I don't mind the charity either, but you don't really need a church for charity. If some people want to be progressive atheists who just form a club to help people, they can do that without appealing to God.


Yea. Let me know when they start doing this in significant numbers.

That's probably why so many liberals leave their faith - they figure they can help others without needing to go through God to do so.


First of all do try to learn what a "liberal" is. Pro tip: Don't look on Fox News or a Republican website. "Liberals" are not "leaving their faith" in great numbers. Not are "white people". In real numbers, as I have already said, religion is growing. It is not growing as a percentage of the population. And if you read what I posted above, it is becoming more conservative. So what is happening is that religious "liberals" are not turning to atheism. They are turning to conservative denominations.

What I mind is the "relationship with God" matter where some people say or imply they're closer to God than others because it's just blatantly obvious.


Imply? Do you somehow have some odd notion that atheists have a "relationship with God"? They don't. So IF a religious person was to make such a statement it would likely be justifiable. I don't feel that way nor do the vast majority of Christians. I won't speak for other religions.

It becomes a matter of manners where people start accusing each other of being graceless, sinful, or viceful.


This is not a religious problem, it is a societal problem. We have, at least in the US, become a rancorous and unmannerly people. A nation of assholes. Actually the religious people tend to be nicer.

People start calling each other arrogant, pretentious, or condescending and that they need to be more modest, humble, or grateful.


Not happening around me.

It makes the ordinary social scene outside of service and volunteering estranging.


So, and I ask this in kindness so that you think about it a bit, you wish to hold religious people to a higher standard than other people? What you are speaking of is civility. We have simply lost all pretense of that in our society. Try being "civil and polite" to the homeless people we feed, clothe, treat and hug every day. Then get back to me about civility.

It sounds to me XDU, like you are seeing something that is making you question your own confidence in your beliefs; or lack thereof. Are religious people really oppressing you? Or are you looking at the message and wondering about what you ought to believe yourself? Just a thought.
User avatar
By XDU
#15207824
Kind of left scratching my head there.

Just FYI, I'm an ex-Diamond Uber driver in Charlotte. My experience with social issues comes from driving several thousand people around from all sorts of backgrounds and having conversations with them in the car. When I talk about religion here, I'm talking from that perspective. I'm not talking about my own personal experience.

In case you don't believe me: Image
Image

You'll notice the top notch ratings for Uber and Lyft too. I'm an actual expert at making people comfortable in understanding how everyone doesn't come from the same circumstance or has the same personality.

Please don't be cynical or mocking with me. It won't get you very far.
User avatar
By Drlee
#15207829
You'll notice the top notch ratings for Uber and Lyft too. I'm an actual expert at making people comfortable in understanding how everyone doesn't come from the same circumstance or has the same personality.

Please don't be cynical or mocking with me. It won't get you very far.


There was nothing cynical or mocking about what I wrote. You need to get the chip off of your shoulder and read what I wrote again.

And news flash. Knowing people requires more than 10 minutes with a stranger.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15207839
Drlee wrote:There was nothing cynical or mocking about what I wrote. You need to get the chip off of your shoulder and read what I wrote again.

And news flash. Knowing people requires more than 10 minutes with a stranger.

Actually, 10 minutes is more than enough time for most people, and too long for some.
User avatar
By XDU
#15207843
Drlee wrote:There was nothing cynical or mocking about what I wrote. You need to get the chip off of your shoulder and read what I wrote again.

And news flash. Knowing people requires more than 10 minutes with a stranger.


Strongly disagree. A lot of people reveal a lot to you because of the fact that they won't know you for long. They figure they don't have anything to lose, and they appreciate the opportunity to blow off some steam when they know there's no risk of long-term retaliation...

...not that this is always a good thing. I've had plenty of nasty passengers too who just lash out for no good reason.

Your first line is cynical and mocking in the first place as well.

Yea. Let me know when they start doing this in significant numbers.


Cynical and mocking.

First of all do try to learn what a "liberal" is. Pro tip: Don't look on Fox News or a Republican website. "Liberals" are not "leaving their faith" in great numbers. Not are "white people". In real numbers, as I have already said, religion is growing. It is not growing as a percentage of the population. And if you read what I posted above, it is becoming more conservative. So what is happening is that religious "liberals" are not turning to atheism. They are turning to conservative denominations.


This whole passage is massively cynical and mocking as if I have no idea what politics are about and presumes where I get my information from which is wildly off the mark.

Imply? Do you somehow have some odd notion that atheists have a "relationship with God"? They don't. So IF a religious person was to make such a statement it would likely be justifiable. I don't feel that way nor do the vast majority of Christians. I won't speak for other religions.


Again, cynical and mocking. I was talking about multiple people in the same congregation, not outsiders versus insiders.

This is not a religious problem, it is a societal problem. We have, at least in the US, become a rancorous and unmannerly people. A nation of assholes. Actually the religious people tend to be nicer.


Again, cynical and mocking. I wasn't even trying to compare religious versus irreligious people. I was talking about how churches can improve. Just because another group does something bad doesn't mean some group is allowed to do it too. That's whataboutism.

Not happening around me.


Cynical and mocking.

So, and I ask this in kindness so that you think about it a bit, you wish to hold religious people to a higher standard than other people? What you are speaking of is civility. We have simply lost all pretense of that in our society. Try being "civil and polite" to the homeless people we feed, clothe, treat and hug every day. Then get back to me about civility.

It sounds to me XDU, like you are seeing something that is making you question your own confidence in your beliefs; or lack thereof. Are religious people really oppressing you? Or are you looking at the message and wondering about what you ought to believe yourself? Just a thought.


Cynical and mocking. I wasn't talking about my personal experience, and pardon me, but I do hand out protein bars to homeless people as I pass them by several times a day.
Russia-Ukraine War 2022

@Rancid It is not necessarily bad by itself[…]

Roe V. Wade to be Overturned

I don't know. Are those states more developed th[…]

Feeling Biden's inflation yet?

@Unthinking Majority What do you mean? Biden ca[…]

Finland and Sweden Could Join NATO Soon

Well, it looks like Finland and Sweden have handed[…]