[annatar1914]

@noemon :

I agree to a point, insofar that " there's nothing new under the sun", as far as human nature goes.

But also, I admit of there being an eschatological dimension, and so from 33AD forwards being in the final age of human history as we know it. Laying out what I'm seeing, is firstly an Islam that will be the majority religion everywhere in 100 years. This has both spiritual and geopolitical ramifications. The second is personalist and relates to adapting to this situation as Orthodox Christians, keeping eyes firmly fixed on personal Theosis while maintaining some kind of society and resistance to this trend. There is a corellary to these two themes, which is a kind of third theme in which the ground between the two disappears, leaving only those two options. Hence predicting a disappearance of purely secular modernity with a majority converted to Islam. I will say however that I think that the Orthodox society of the future will be republican and Socialist, while the Islamic will not, probably mirroring the present Western socio economic and political order, perhaps monarchial and oligarchical. Ramzan Kadyrov. Andrew Tate.

That anyway is the framework of my posts on this thread, at least to start.

@noemon , @Potemkin , and @Verv :

I renew and take up again the discussion proper to this thread.

It's really simple to start with, if not easy. Is Nicholai Leontiev right, in that baring a Tsar able to head up the social forces of Socialism and with the blessings of the Church, is it even possible to have a politically active Orthodox Christianity, triumphant and standing athwart the forces of darkness?

Or...

Do we " just" await the Second Coming in fear and hopeful joy, focusing instead on the spiritual grace and regeneration of the human person, salvation?

I am open to suggestions, but I'm inclined to the second option, always the final and ultimate one. For this is the ' final hour'. Such that perhaps even were one of a Tsarist persuasion, the last Tsar of prophecy fell some time back and Antichrist is near.

What that fully means I'll explain later if I can. Then there's the exterior phenomenon in the world, which I posit is the near absolute triumph of Islam over most of the world within living memory in the not too distant future. That Red Flag I mentioned plays a role in that I think, Twelver Shia Islam being the most internally consistent and uniformly committed Islam in the world.

Some of what I will talk about is a poor man's fallible speculations, opinion, metaphorically walking into a dark room at midnight on a moonless and starless evening.

But since I know my heart and thus know that most men crave at least the illusion of certainty, I can say therefore with some confidence that within the world of Islam the doctrines are most elaborated and explained within the sect of Twelver Shia Islam. The Imam Mahdi who is hidden but who will reveal himself to all, with the Islamic prophet Isa as his right hand man, instituting through battle the reign of Islam and the end of Christianity and the Jews and the " breaking of all crosses", after the prophesied defeat of a being called Dajjal al Mastih, the alleged " Lying Christ" who claims to be God and whom the Muslims say will work all sorts of miracles...

Yes, I'll want to ponder these things.

One interesting aspect to this is that while Christianity accepts at some point no longer holding back the forces of darkness and the Christian State being set aside out of the way by Antichrist, Islam holds to the doctrine of a Mahdi from scores of references in the Hadiths, and posits him as conquering the world for Islam, whether it's the Sunni version or the Shia one, of a Hidden Imam.

When Christ returns, Muslims would be required to see Him as an imposter, as Dajjal al Mastih, as they'll have the " prophet Isa" at the Mahdi's side. Does that mean then that Orthodox Christian people would regard the Muslim Mahdi as Antichrist?

[annatar1914]

@noemon , @Potemkin , and @Verv :

I renew and take up again the discussion proper to this thread.

It's really simple to start with, if not easy. Is Nicholai Leontiev right, in that baring a Tsar able to head up the social forces of Socialism and with the blessings of the Church, is it even possible to have a politically active Orthodox Christianity, triumphant and standing athwart the forces of darkness?

Or...

Do we " just" await the Second Coming in fear and hopeful joy, focusing instead on the spiritual grace and regeneration of the human person, salvation?

I am open to suggestions, but I'm inclined to the second option, always the final and ultimate one. For this is the ' final hour'. Such that perhaps even were one of a Tsarist persuasion, the last Tsar of prophecy fell some time back and Antichrist is near.

What that fully means I'll explain later if I can. Then there's the exterior phenomenon in the world, which I posit is the near absolute triumph of Islam over most of the world within living memory in the not too distant future. That Red Flag I mentioned plays a role in that I think, Twelver Shia Islam being the most internally consistent and uniformly committed Islam in the world.

Some of what I will talk about is a poor man's fallible speculations, opinion, metaphorically walking into a dark room at midnight on a moonless and starless evening.

But since I know my heart and thus know that most men crave at least the illusion of certainty, I can say therefore with some confidence that within the world of Islam the doctrines are most elaborated and explained within the sect of Twelver Shia Islam. The Imam Mahdi who is hidden but who will reveal himself to all, with the Islamic prophet Isa as his right hand man, instituting through battle the reign of Islam and the end of Christianity and the Jews and the " breaking of all crosses", after the prophesied defeat of a being called Dajjal al Mastih, the alleged " Lying Christ" who claims to be God and whom the Muslims say will work all sorts of miracles...

Yes, I'll want to ponder these things.

One interesting aspect to this is that while Christianity accepts at some point no longer holding back the forces of darkness and the Christian State being set aside out of the way by Antichrist, Islam holds to the doctrine of a Mahdi from scores of references in the Hadiths, and posits him as conquering the world for Islam, whether it's the Sunni version or the Shia one, of a Hidden Imam.

When Christ returns, Muslims would be required to see Him as an imposter, as Dajjal al Mastih, as they'll have the " prophet Isa" at the Mahdi's side. Does that mean then that Orthodox Christian people would regard the Muslim Mahdi as Antichrist?

@Verv , @Potemkin , and others:

Now, I understand that my previous post presupposes a number of things, not least of which is the truth of Jesus Christ and also the deception of Islam in the Later Days. And also, a tacit acceptance of the Monotheistic type of worldview, regardless of the deception on one side or the other.

Without prejudice to the faith or lack thereof of others, I would note a couple interesting features of the Islamic description of " Dajjal al Mastih" and his followers. He is described as a very short but powerfully built man, swarthy and course featured and with one and possibly both eyes deformed in some manner in appearance. So, ugly by classical standards of human beauty, and apparently we're to accept this standard as the external sign of an inner condition, or else the whole thing is symbolic. Of this more later.

Then, the Islamic eschatological Hadiths about Dajjals followers, as being women (particularly prostitutes)lower class people, and Jews, especially Jews.

Sounds like the original followers of One Jesus of Nazareth to me.... Strange and interesting.

And that leads me back to the pagan and early Church description of Christ (and prophecy!) as being a small and ugly little Man by Classical standards of beauty. This weirdly conforms to the later discription of the Dajjal in my opinion. I tend not to believe in coincidence.

[Potemkin]

And that leads me back to the pagan and early Church description of Christ (and prophecy!) as being a small and ugly little Man by Classical standards of beauty. This weirdly conforms to the later discription of the Dajjal in my opinion. I tend not to believe in coincidence.

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

[annatar1914]

[quote="Potemkin"][/quote]

@Potemkin :

Thus, it is my hope then that what can be articulated is a broad but integral Humanism, so that all men of good will can help make their choices in the coming days, weeks, months and years.

So too, why all these men from Filmer and de Maistre, to Bonald and Juan Donoso Cortes, to Nietzsche and Leontiev and Julius Evola, are to be rejected. The whole cancer of Aristocracy which is summed up in the immortal words of another beautiful " ugly" man Abraham Lincoln: " you work and I'll eat".

I know where Christ stands on this

[ckaihatsu]

that all men of good will can help make their choices in the coming days, weeks, months and years.

---


philosophical abstractions

Spoiler: show

Also:


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show

[annatar1914]

---


philosophical abstractions

Spoiler: show

Also:


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show

@ckaihatsu :

All you are doing is lowering yourself to the level of a malignant troll. Or worse, a kind of joke. Why don't you just run along, and leave the spirituality section to people who are willing to discuss spiritual matters in peace?

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin , @noemon , @Verv :


The Confession of the Orthodox Faith

"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all ages: Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father: by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, and became man; He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried, and arose on the third day, according to the Scriptures; And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father: and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the Dead; of Whose kingdom there is no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, true and life-giving, Who proceedeth from the Father: Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified: Who spake by the prophets. And in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. I wait for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen."

It begins with this, the Symbol. Saying that this is the Truth necessarily excludes other statements as possibilities.

Now Muslims say in the Shahada what it the Shahada says (" there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet") and at the Dome of the Rock there is inscribed as contrary a denial of the Orthodox Confession as can be conceived (" say not that Allah is three" and so forth).

But how then does error get it's power? With Hillaire Belloc, I can say that what is maintained of the Truth in a system of falsehood gives it it's power, it's energy that motivates it's followers. A simple creed that is easy to follow and encourages earthly endeavours to build up an empire in this world, will not lack a measure of success. Legalism can draw up loopholes to allow one to sin if so inclined or to be kind and generous, and ratiocinations for the Rich and Strong to plunder and beat the Poor. In that realm, there's no earthly benefits in not being part of that society.

I would say in fact that every small error would tend towards the development of that one greater error, all heresies, all schisms, would benefit it's growth and well being. Every sin and every sinner, in fact. So I am responsible, on my part. Leon Bloy once said " that one is either a saint or a pig", and I'm by no means a saint. But I know of saints, saints with God's help.

I will trace a certain development then, beginning with the father of all heresies Origen, and leading to discussion on Muhammad. With an eschatological frame of reference, there will be less writing of Western or Magian or Greco Roman from me, contrary to other threads. It's all of one piece, I see.

[ness31]

Okay I’m just going to ask this and risk the wrath of annatar1914 , but I am not doing so disrespectfully, it’s just so I can orientate myself with where I think you’re going . If my questions are way off the mark, just say so, do not deign a reply.

Do you see Islam and transhumanism as inextricably linked; as in, do you see Islam as its vehicle? Second, who or what in your opinion is Islams biggest rival religion wise? I don’t mean it’s polar opposite, I mean it’s competitor ideologically - does it have one?

If you can make sense of those questions great. If you’re going to answer them please keep it basic -ish. I’m a simple lass, I have no idea what you’re going on about most of the time but I’m trying

[annatar1914]

Okay I’m just going to ask this and risk the wrath of annatar1914 , but I am not doing so disrespectfully, it’s just so I can orientate myself with where I think you’re going . If my questions are way off the mark, just say so, do not deign a reply.

Do you see Islam and transhumanism as inextricably linked; as in, do you see Islam as its vehicle? Second, who or what in your opinion is Islams biggest rival religion wise? I don’t mean it’s polar opposite, I mean it’s competitor ideologically - does it have one?

If you can make sense of those questions great. If you’re going to answer them please keep it basic -ish. I’m a simple lass, I have no idea what you’re going on about most of the time but I’m trying

@ness31 :

Hello, I don't think that I've been wrathful, and you have never been disrespectful by any means, so I'm happy to have a nice conversation with you:-).

In answer to your questions, and they're good ones by the way, entirely related to the thread themes:

I'd say that with a few serious compatibilities between Islam and Transhumanism as exceptions, Islam will be the future, not the envisioned drama of some new speciation event as some Transhumanism adherents posit. Other aspects of Islam are actually very well compatible with Modernity, more so than Christianity is even.

I would say that Islam's biggest rival is some varient of the Dharmic religions in the East, Hinduism and/or Buddhism. But in my opinion Islam will easily win out. I don't say these things out of a bias or anything else, but just my opinion which I can elaborate on further.

Islam is the world religion of mankind's future in the remainder of the Age. Orthodox Christianity is the Truth, however. That's the way I see it.

[ness31]

You’re being very kind about the questions but I can tell by the answers that I haven’t quite yet got you pegged. Not to worry, I’ll just keep reading until I get another brainwave lol.

[noemon]

[noemon]

[annatar1914]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gar6MONCKs

@noemon

I think that a discussion of the Roman Empire which fell (by some accounts either 1453 or 1917 AD) at least temporarily, is necessary.

This is because the apparent unanimity of the Fathers and Saints assurance that there will be a " Final Emperor" who will lead a revival of the Orthodox Christian Commonwealth in the period shortly before the personal Antichrist appears.

[annatar1914]

You’re being very kind about the questions but I can tell by the answers that I haven’t quite yet got you pegged. Not to worry, I’ll just keep reading until I get another brainwave lol.

@ness31 :

No worries. I have a core of beliefs which I do not deviate from which I try to inform the rest of my worldview with, and the rest is either opinion, and/or the testing of an idea I fancy until I'm shown otherwise by others or myself. I began on PoFo an monarchist reactionary, fairly capitalistic/corporatist, and now I'm fairly republican and socialistic, to give political examples. The common thread though was an interest in the State providing for the enhancement and protection of the common good. I'm a little less Statist than I was before, but probably still authoritarian.

That being said, I intend a lessened conversation about politics and more on spirituality than on previous threads

[noemon]

@noemon

I think that a discussion of the Roman Empire which fell (by some accounts either 1453 or 1917 AD) at least temporarily, is necessary.

This is because the apparent unanimity of the Fathers and Saints assurance that there will be a " Final Emperor" who will lead a revival of the Orthodox Christian Commonwealth in the period shortly before the personal Antichrist appears.

Looking to the future, for me democracy or republicanism or whatever you want to call the western systems of government are not sacred totems, but what is a sacred totem is "freedom", the freedom to pursue your own happiness.

Scratching the surface of Byzantine History you find a despotic, autocratic system at the top but when looking a bit closer you find extreme freedom for the average person to speak, write, travel, study, trade and behave as they saw fit.

This is extremely important for the health and wealth of nations.

It was not just Georgios Gemistos Plethon who was a very popular pagan in the Middle Ages but also John Argyropoulos who openly & publicly addressed the Roman Emperor as the "Sun King of Hellas" without anyone punishing him for example. And this type of freedom extended all the way down to regular people. Women were educated, gambling, prostitution, theater production was rife.

So we see a society that for many people stands as the example of autocratic christian conservatism but where people were largely free to do as they please. And this matters. It matters a lot for a nation, for its people to feel comfortable in their own skins instead of worrying who will rat them out and whether they will find themselves in a prison for the smallest of offenses.

That is how you make people from slaves or surfs into citizens, and unless people get this freedom, it is spiritually impossible for them to become civic citizens and thus collectively establish a strong state with a clear destiny and direction.

[annatar1914]

Looking to the future, for me democracy or republicanism or whatever you want to call the western systems of government are not sacred totems, but what is a sacred totem is "freedom", the freedom to pursue your own happiness.

Scratching the surface of Byzantine History you find a despotic, autocratic system at the top but when looking a bit closer you find extreme freedom for the average person to speak, write, travel, study, trade and behave as they saw fit.

This is extremely important for the health and wealth of nations.

It was not just Georgios Gemistos Plethon who was a very popular pagan in the Middle Ages but also John Argyropoulos who openly & publicly addressed the Roman Emperor as the "Sun King of Hellas" without anyone punishing him for example. And this type of freedom extended all the way down to regular people. Women were educated, gambling, prostitution, theater production was rife.

So we see a society that for many people stands as the example of autocratic christian conservatism but where people were largely free to do as they please. And this matters. It matters a lot for a nation, for its people to feel comfortable in their own skins instead of worrying who will rat them out and whether they will find themselves in a prison for the smallest of offenses.

That is how you make people from slaves or surfs into citizens, and unless people get this freedom, it is spiritually impossible for them to become civic citizens and thus collectively establish a strong state with a clear destiny and direction.

@noemon :

And that's what the Roman Empire in the East had, a strong state with a clear destiny and direction. With the Romanovs in the Third Rome, not so much in my opinion. Again, thinking about Leontiev and what he had to say about Orthodoxy and any society informed spiritually by the Faith.

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin , @Verv :

Now, one might be forgiven by earlier statements I've made , that suggest a certain outcome based on the rivaling eschatological expectations of two Monotheistic religions, but that inference would be wrong, sorry if I inadvertently suggested that. One religion will survive, while the other will be poised to become the world's dominant religion.

At least for a time... And not so much in the Western world, contra expectations. Then I think there's the possibility of a reversal of fortunes, we'll see.

Both Orthodoxy and Islam have been and will be spurred into activity by the dominant civilization of Western Modernity. One will see the fulfillment of eschatological hopes as time goes on, while another will not, and the Western Modernity will shape it all in the wake of it's gradual implosion.

There have been and will be two reactions then to the West and to the Western ultimate destiny: which I alluded to with the mention of the Holy Spirit, and to the Red Flag of Shia Twelver vengeance. But a " Hidden Imam/Mahdi" isn't coming out of hiding, even as the disguise of what Christians call the Antichrist. I know that the idea of a " Islamic Antichrist" is popular in some quarters but I reject it.

[annatar1914]

Another seemingly minor thing to get out of the way.

The originator of this thread is of the belief that all the Particulars of this Cosmos, the ' Logoi' or Reasons, have their 'Arche' or organizing principle in the Logos. The Word, the Universal Reason. Which is a Person, Jesus Christ. Second Person of the Blessed Triune Godhead.

Absolutely nothing can be understood without Him, while also with Him the Cosmic ineffable Mystery is inexhaustible. Everything in the universe revolves around Him and His time on Earth as the Son of Man, Incarnate God.

Because of this, we have meaning, our lives are important. Where and who we are are important to Him and we also should be important to each other. Every man is the others brother, and every woman a sister.

[noemon]

Byzantine and Persian(Ahura Mazda) incantations in memory of the Battle of Nineveh, the final battle between Rome & Persia right before the Muslims appeared.

This one contains Muslim incantations as well as Byzantine, Pontic folk songs and Persian ones.

[Potemkin]

Byzantine and Persian(Ahura Mazda) incantations in memory of the Battle of Nineveh, the final battle between Rome & Persia right before the Muslims appeared.

A bad day for Khosrow II, as I recall. Talk about a sudden reversal of fortunes….