[ckaihatsu]

How does one relate to the other, the things to affirm or reject? Harder than any political ideological choice, one must reject or hold to one or the other as the Holy and sacred Action in the world. Both symbolize how things are done or not done in the world, the seemingly deceptive choice of one faith at the expense of another, but furthermore being like Kirkegaard's " Knight of Faith" and living that sharp choice as a full on way of life.

That's what this thread is about. The realization that there's so much more going on than the surface epiphenomenal Western world.

I invite @Verv , and @Political Interest and @Potemkin to examine this further with me.

Got your *favorites* picked-out already, huh, AN -- ?

You're implying that the religious 'realm' is the *independent variable*, and that all material phenomena in the Western / world are *dependent* variables, being 'wagged' by the religious-realm 'dog'.

Sure, it's far easier and fun to play mysterious dramatic games with a narrative of good-vs.-evil, which is then like a Disney film -- but we all know it's just a thin stand-in for the *real* objective reality.


[6] Worldview Diagram

Spoiler: show

Worldview Diagram

Spoiler: show

[ckaihatsu]

Baudrillauds Spectacle.

False dichotomy, or 'religion without religion'. (grin)

[annatar1914]

Got your *favorites* picked-out already, huh, AN -- ?

You're implying that the religious 'realm' is the *independent variable*, and that all material phenomena in the Western / world are *dependent* variables, being 'wagged' by the religious-realm 'dog'.

Sure, it's far easier and fun to play mysterious dramatic games with a narrative of good-vs.-evil, which is then like a Disney film -- but we all know it's just a thin stand-in for the *real* objective reality.


[6] Worldview Diagram

Spoiler: show

Worldview Diagram

Spoiler: show

I'm not going to be diverted on this thread into a discussion on why you are entirely wrong. Nor should I, when I'm posting in the Spirituality section of the Forum and apparently you haven't read the rules pertaining to this section.

You're trolling. Find somewhere else to spout your Atheism and materialism.

[annatar1914]

@Verv , @Potemkin, and @Political Interest:

I said earlier:

"The thread title might give one the wrong impression: "raising the Red Flag the Age of the Holy Spirit" are two different concepts, and I forgot to insert a comma . The " red flag" isn't something I would wave, nor is it the red flag of Communism I'm referring to ( but after a fashion I do wave that flag!) No, it's the Red Flag of revenge in Twelver Shia Islam and referring to an action taken a short time ago when President Trump decided to assassinate General Suleimani of Iran, flying on a diplomatic mission in military uniform as an official representative of one sovereign nation on the territory of yet another sovereign nation as a guest.

I will get back to that in time. Apparently the rules have changed. "

This Event (assassination of General Soleimani January 3rd 2020) ranks right up there with the Iranian Revolution of 1979 and 9-11 in consequences. Of course, people were assassinated long before this, but not in a manner which directly contradicts the world order and the Western concept of the Nation State since 1648 and the Peace of Westphalia.

Trump, the hand of fate, half genius and half clown, in the modernist Clown World a prince of the Hypernormal.

I think Trump and so many others would agree with Joseph de Maistre that: " the executioner is the cornerstone of the social ediface". But in a manner which would have horrified the personally mild Savoyard, for robots aren't even human.

I wonder how the Iranian governing elite look at this? I mean, I have a few guesses. A few no doubt think of America without fondness when recalling times spent in the prisons of America's puppet the Shah, getting their testicles stomped or being subjected to the Bastinado...

But here's a faithless opportunist and political adventurer, President Trump, who doesn't even believe in the same things his followers do ( as witness his recent comments on abortion and the midterms), and he of all people made this decision to liquidate the General via Drone strike (another element pregnant with meaning with regards to Western civilization).

Entirely degenerate, totally mad. The Iranians wanted revenge. There was a missile strike on US military bases in Iraq, more mystery. Or should a rational restraint seem odd these days?

That " Red Flag" I mentioned is the symbol of revenge, seeking justice, in Twelver Shia Islam. That flag was raised in Qom. Is it still? Makes me think of so many possibilities no least in the context of the 2020 election my head spins.

But why this specific event, to hinge half of an entire thread on? And relate to the other half, the movement of the Holy Spirit of God?

Man is so evil in these later days, that what appears to be the Holy Spirit's, His sanctifying work, is ascribed to Lucifer , as something unclean. Particularly among the Bourgeoisie. How dare He disturb the conscience! How dare He ask for a burning Charity , not of our superfluous goods, but of everything!

The Rich think like that. And so we have the Man of Gold, murdering by factotum and by a distance, safe at a comfortable haven of pleasures and distractions. Doesn't matter who the victim was. But all the Rich are used to murdering at a distance and at a remove, murdering the Poor Man, drinking their flesh and their blood. Stealing by hook and by crook, fair means and foul, everything to increase what they have by exclusive use and right. How dare a baboon like Marx speak truths like " surplus value"!?

So I'll explore these connections, with the help of others, because I simply get too indignant, and impatient.

[annatar1914]

@Verv , @Potemkin, and @Political Interest:

I said earlier:

"The thread title might give one the wrong impression: "raising the Red Flag the Age of the Holy Spirit" are two different concepts, and I forgot to insert a comma . The " red flag" isn't something I would wave, nor is it the red flag of Communism I'm referring to ( but after a fashion I do wave that flag!) No, it's the Red Flag of revenge in Twelver Shia Islam and referring to an action taken a short time ago when President Trump decided to assassinate General Suleimani of Iran, flying on a diplomatic mission in military uniform as an official representative of one sovereign nation on the territory of yet another sovereign nation as a guest.

I will get back to that in time. Apparently the rules have changed. "

This Event (assassination of General Soleimani January 3rd 2020) ranks right up there with the Iranian Revolution of 1979 and 9-11 in consequences. Of course, people were assassinated long before this, but not in a manner which directly contradicts the world order and the Western concept of the Nation State since 1648 and the Peace of Westphalia.

Trump, the hand of fate, half genius and half clown, in the modernist Clown World a prince of the Hypernormal.

I think Trump and so many others would agree with Joseph de Maistre that: " the executioner is the cornerstone of the social ediface". But in a manner which would have horrified the personally mild Savoyard, for robots aren't even human.

I wonder how the Iranian governing elite look at this? I mean, I have a few guesses. A few no doubt think of America without fondness when recalling times spent in the prisons of America's puppet the Shah, getting their testicles stomped or being subjected to the Bastinado...

But here's a faithless opportunist and political adventurer, President Trump, who doesn't even believe in the same things his followers do ( as witness his recent comments on abortion and the midterms), and he of all people made this decision to liquidate the General via Drone strike (another element pregnant with meaning with regards to Western civilization).

Entirely degenerate, totally mad. The Iranians wanted revenge. There was a missile strike on US military bases in Iraq, more mystery. Or should a rational restraint seem odd these days?

That " Red Flag" I mentioned is the symbol of revenge, seeking justice, in Twelver Shia Islam. That flag was raised in Qom. Is it still? Makes me think of so many possibilities no least in the context of the 2020 election my head spins.

But why this specific event, to hinge half of an entire thread on? And relate to the other half, the movement of the Holy Spirit of God?

Man is so evil in these later days, that what appears to be the Holy Spirit's, His sanctifying work, is ascribed to Lucifer , as something unclean. Particularly among the Bourgeoisie. How dare He disturb the conscience! How dare He ask for a burning Charity , not of our superfluous goods, but of everything!

The Rich think like that. And so we have the Man of Gold, murdering by factotum and by a distance, safe at a comfortable haven of pleasures and distractions. Doesn't matter who the victim was. But all the Rich are used to murdering at a distance and at a remove, murdering the Poor Man, drinking their flesh and their blood. Stealing by hook and by crook, fair means and foul, everything to increase what they have by exclusive use and right. How dare a baboon like Marx speak truths like " surplus value"!?

So I'll explore these connections, with the help of others, because I simply get too indignant, and impatient.

I am reminded of Carl Schmidt and his idea of the Partisan, whose concept of war is unlimited and total, the defeat of the Enemy by any scientific means condusive to victory. A military Outlaw, heralding the end of Aristocrat notions of war, the industrialization and capitalization of war ending in what some would call the Demotic proletarianization of warfare. People's War, Holy War.

But that's General Soleimani, not President Trump. Trump and others warfare is that of the effeminate and exhausted civilization that prefers using poisons and assassins and buying off of opponents, or getting them to fight each other. Using as I've said these base tools at a safe distance.

What can possibly be a reaction, in the face of a " strategy" so insane it can't even be considered so much as being bad, but something like a neurological spasm, a random firing off of neurons without a rational justification? The President who bragged about fighting ISIS kills the Iranian heading up the largest anti ISIS force on the ground followed by Russia and the SAA?

I said back in 2013 that following the apocalyptic drama of ISIS carving a hole out of modern reality, that their enemies hate and fear each other more than they do ISIS, and thus ISIS would win, even if it takes decades if not centuries to do it. Trump and others in the West prove me right so far. But not just in the West. We have all fallen short, sinned and corrupted the Earth. And I among the most guilty: to whom much is given, much is expected, and I have squandered much of what I was given.

In any case, the left hand cuts off the right hand, and we will have to live with the results. What will they be?

[Rich]

But that's General Soleimani, not President Trump. Trump and others warfare is that of the effeminate and exhausted civilization that prefers using poisons and assassins and buying off of opponents, or getting them to fight each other. Using as I've said these base tools at a safe distance.

Killing Soleimani was a brilliant move on Trump's part. He was responsible for the murder of Pagans, Atheists and Judaists. He was responsible for the torture, oppression and exploitation of Pagans. He was not deserving of an honourable death. His death was not only just but wise. We could do with a few more operations like that. That's the only way America will get respect from these people. Talking to these Muslims in a language they can understand.

[annatar1914]

Killing Soleimani was a brilliant move on Trump's part. He was responsible for the murder of Pagans, Atheists and Judaists. He was responsible for the torture, oppression and exploitation of Pagans. He was not deserving of an honourable death. His death was not only just but wise. We could do with a few more operations like that. That's the only way America will get respect from these people. Talking to these Muslims in a language they can understand.

@Rich :

QED, as they say, you demonstrate my point perfectly. I don't have much care or use for any classification of people you mentioned.

Over the years I have noted your unique worldview and I do sympathize with someone like myself who has beliefs considered idiosyncratic, ambiguous, nebulous, to others at least, and having to explain those beliefs in a way that does justice to them while perhaps holding back for the sake of other's sensibilities.

That being said, most of the time I disagree with you and this is one of those times. Obviously you and Mr Trump and many others are now of the camp in which the international rules set down with the Peace of Westphalia and after were established is breaking down. That breakdown of the Westphalian order I don't necessarily have a problem with. But my criticism stems from other reasons. I don't believe in natural law, or a separate rule of ethics or standard of morality outside the true and revealed teachings and commandments of God.

But....If one kills another with a lack of honor, they do not deserve honor in turn. If one says that another human being deserves, or even gives, that someone the death of an animal, they put that on their own head. But don't be surprised then if a frightfulness is unleashed that hasn't been seen in some time, since the war of 1914-1945.

Don't get me wrong: I don't see war as an absolute evil, it brings out not only the worst in people but also the best in them.

But this assassination was not war, it was murder. The United States is not at declared war with either nation whose sovereignty was violated by that assassination. Mind you, I'm no fan of the Iranian Islamic Republic myself. But what's beginning to be unleashed, what has already been happening as consequences, that does concern me.

That being said I'm reminded of one of my heroes, Vlad the Impaler, when he received the ambassadors of the Turkish Sultan and, perceiving a slight, had their turbans nailed to their heads. I have little problem with that. In the exercise of his sovereign right, Vlad declared them outlaw and removed them from life, by that very act declared war on the Ottoman Empire.

But are people like Trump, in an age when all Greatness appears to be exiled from humanity, understanding of the importance of what they do, their meanings? I think not. No this was a reflexive and reactionary act, an unthinking murder. Some say General Soleimani had directly or indirectly caused the deaths of US troops, which brings us to the threshold of a tangent in itself. But I bring up again the impact this made on the fight against ISIS, how the hatred and fear of ISIS is unfortunately far less than the hatreds and fears the anti ISIS forces have for each other. Which is why they will eventually win.

[ckaihatsu]

Killing Soleimani was a brilliant move on Trump's part. He was responsible for the murder of Pagans, Atheists and Judaists. He was responsible for the torture, oppression and exploitation of Pagans. He was not deserving of an honourable death. His death was not only just but wise. We could do with a few more operations like that. That's the only way America will get respect from these people. Talking to these Muslims in a language they can understand.

---

In politics

In 1999, Soleimani, along with other senior IRGC commanders, signed a letter to then-President Mohammad Khatami regarding the student protests in July. They wrote "Dear Mr. Khatami, how long do we have to shed tears, sorrow over the events, practice democracy by chaos and insults, and have revolutionary patience at the expense of sabotaging the system? Dear president, if you don't make a revolutionary decision and act according to your Islamic and national missions, tomorrow will be so late and irrecoverable that cannot be even imagined."[100]

In the summer of 2018, Soleimani and Tehran exchanged public remarks with American President Donald Trump related to Red Sea shipping which heightened tensions between the two countries and their allies in the region.[104]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qasem_Sol ... n_politics

[annatar1914]

---

Murder is murder. If they want somebody dead, they need to get up and fight a duel with them.

Besides, my point is being proved by the fact that nobody stuck in some iteration of Western Modernity has a problem with what happened. And that's the problem. Welcome, welcome to being comrades with President Trump!

[ckaihatsu]

Murder is murder. If they want somebody dead, they need to get up and fight a duel with them.

Besides, my point is being proved by the fact that nobody stuck in some iteration of Western Modernity has a problem with what happened. And that's the problem. Welcome, welcome to being comrades with President Trump!

Well, to be *fair*, people aren't going to take to the streets to defend a *military* guy, usually -- though El Sisi and Milley come to mind as rare examples of the atypical.

You're speaking to *geopolitics*, which is really it's own thing -- chasing after it just yields *more geopolitics*.

[annatar1914]

Well, to be *fair*, people aren't going to take to the streets to defend a *military* guy, usually -- though El Sisi and Milley come to mind as rare examples of the atypical.

You're speaking to *geopolitics*, which is really it's own thing -- chasing after it just yields *more geopolitics*.

@ckaihatsu :

You are just not getting it. You quite simply don't understand what the problem is, more's the pity.

[ckaihatsu]

[EDITED]

@ckaihatsu :

You are just not getting it. You quite simply don't understand what the problem is, more's the pity.

You *can* think that demographic changes are what moves politics / geopolitics, but you'd be incorrect.


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show

[ness31]

I’m still stuck on @annatar1914’s characterization of assassinations and poisonings as ‘effeminate’. Not only did I chuckle, it’s actually true. In common parlance annatar , we’d say it’s a “bitch move”. We could rename it a “Griner move” , but that might be a little obscure

[ckaihatsu]

I’m still stuck on @annatar1914’s characterization of assassinations and poisonings as ‘effeminate’. Not only did I chuckle, it’s actually true. In common parlance annatar , we’d say it’s a “bitch move”. We could rename it a “Griner move” , but that might be a little obscure

---

Some U.S. officials expressed concern that Russia may have been using Griner as leverage in response to the Western sanctions imposed against Russia for its invasion of Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittney_ ... _in_Russia

[annatar1914]

I’m still stuck on @annatar1914’s characterization of assassinations and poisonings as ‘effeminate’. Not only did I chuckle, it’s actually true. In common parlance annatar , we’d say it’s a “bitch move”. We could rename it a “Griner move” , but that might be a little obscure

@ness31 :

Lol ..

I use the term " effeminacy" in the sense of a person or persons or society as a whole failing to accomplish anything too difficult, at the risk of some cost personally born.

They want problems fixed, at minimal cost or effort or risk.

[ckaihatsu]

@ness31 :

Lol ..

I use the term " effeminacy" in the sense of a person or persons or society as a whole failing to accomplish anything too difficult, at the risk of some cost personally born.

They want problems fixed, at minimal cost or effort or risk.

---

[ness31]

@ness31 :

Lol ..

I use the term " effeminacy" in the sense of a person or persons or society as a whole failing to accomplish anything too difficult, at the risk of some cost personally born.

They want problems fixed, at minimal cost or effort or risk.

I prefer my interpretation of what you said, it was more generous than what you actually meant. You do realize what you said was quite rude to women right?

[Potemkin]

I prefer my interpretation of what you said, it was more generous than what you actually meant. You do realize what you said was quite rude to women right?

The problem with women is that they’re effeminate.

[annatar1914]

I prefer my interpretation of what you said, it was more generous than what you actually meant. You do realize what you said was quite rude to women right?

@ness31 :

I was using the meaning of the term in it's scholastic origins, in early textbooks, not it's connotation of being unmanly, which I believe came later. As for women, on both counts it is kind of an unfortunate word, yes.

I could be wrong about the word, but it fits that these gutless wonders engage in these actions like assassination, poison, drone strikes, terrorism, snipers, etc .. Because they cannot bear personal effort nor risk or loss to themselves, but desire the murderous results

In any case then, it implies as you said a real " bitch move" on the part of western and other elites. Although, some of their opponents are quite capable of themselves justifying many of these same acts: are we actually seeing them influence each other? What then are we to make of suicide bombers and the like, in this context?

I believe that I have some answers on that, tentative at least. One set of elites is at a remove from death and fear it while all too happy to inflict it on others. Another set see the human bombs, terrorizing the target into demoralized submission, see the side effect as a triumph over the fear of death. It's a Fascist death cult in a number of ways.

It can only have one outcome, this mad spiral of undeclared warfare.

[MadMonk]

@ness31 :

I was using the meaning of the term in it's scholastic origins, in early textbooks, not it's connotation of being unmanly, which I believe came later. As for women, on both counts it is kind of an unfortunate word, yes.

I could be wrong about the word, but it fits that these gutless wonders engage in these actions like assassination, poison, drone strikes, terrorism, snipers, etc .. Because they cannot bear personal effort nor risk or loss to themselves, but desire the murderous results

In any case then, it implies as you said a real " bitch move" on the part of western and other elites. Although, some of their opponents are quite capable of themselves justifying many of these same acts: are we actually seeing them influence each other? What then are we to make of suicide bombers and the like, in this context?

I believe that I have some answers on that, tentative at least. One set of elites is at a remove from death and fear it while all too happy to inflict it on others. Another set see the human bombs, terrorizing the target into demoralized submission, see the side effect as a triumph over the fear of death. It's a Fascist death cult in a number of ways.

It can only have one outcome, this mad spiral of undeclared warfare.

It gets worse. Suicide bombers and the like are actually useful to certain parties in order to sell a narrative, the same reason many believe 9/11 was an inside job. I find it curious though, that these allegations of assassinations and false-flag terrorist operations could as easily be pointed at Russia, but it is western elites in your crosshairs.

More than two decades ago, a series of deadly apartment bombings, purportedly by separatists, drew Russian troops into war. Then-Prime Minister Vladimir Putin’s popularity surged in the wake of his response to the terrorist attacks. He soon became Russia’s president.

In the many years since 1999, allegations have lingered that the attacks on Russian civilians were actually a “false flag” carried out by forces loyal to Putin, blamed on Chechen militants to ensure his grip on power. For many in the Russian opposition, the apartment bombings were to Putin’s Russia what the Reichstag fire was for Nazi Germany.

Such accusations marked the start of a trend. From Chechnya to Ukraine, from terrorist attacks to cyberattacks, Putin’s Russia has been accused time and again of secretly carrying out acts that it blamed on others. The broader aim, some experts and former U.S. officials say, is to create confusion with dueling narratives.

Washington Post

The Americans have their own axe to grind, but that itself doesn't make them wrong.