[colliric]

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-muc ... ks-2021-12

He pays his taxes. About to pay more tax than any other American in history.

[Truth To Power]

The Cryptocurrency market has not crashed, it has retreated from its All Time High as usual.

Crypto is tulip bulbs all over again.

Tesla is not a financial bubble, only it's current stock price is. The company has good solid fundamentals.

At 1% of its current market capitalization.

[Truth To Power]

These people are businessmen and predominately they make money form market manipulation rather than actually doing anything useful, others actually do the work.

While market manipulation is a factor, they make money primarily through privilege: legal entitlements to benefit from the abrogation of others' rights without making just compensation. The most important privileges are land titles, IP monopolies, bank licenses, oil and mineral rights, and broadcast spectrum allocations, in roughly that order, depending on the country.

Rich people work hard. Pffrtt. They do not know what work is.

I have known enough rich people personally to know that a significant fraction of them do work hard. But they mostly work hard not at productive endeavors, but at rent seeking: i.e., obtaining and exploiting something-for-nothing privileges such as those listed above.

Rich people are rich because they get more form society than they contribute.

The great majority are. Some -- perhaps a low single-digit percentage -- do contribute enough to have earned the bulk of their wealth. I have known a few.

Musk enjoys a lavish lifestyle

Evidence? He is certainly rich, but I have seen no indication that he enjoys a lavish lifestyle.

because others work hard to make it so. He's one those at the top o the pyramid who relies and countless others working below to generate the excess that he and others enjoy.

No, he is one of the few rich who has created valuable products using highly effective production systems that others did not and could not create.

And he declines to pay even a modest amount of tax.

I don't think he declines to pay taxes, and I can certainly sympathize with his reluctance to pay unjust and harmful taxes, which almost all current taxes are.

Bottom Line should the tax system be fair and treat everyone equally? The Currently accepted principle of taxation of income is people pay something proportional to their income. The Rich generally don't as they have many ways of manipulating the system. Musk is just one very prominent example. Warren called him out and was proposing we change the laws to be more equitable.

In fact, in the USA, total tax burden is remarkably consistent as a fraction of income. Of course, that is not remotely fair or equitable. In other advanced countries with more democratically accountable governments than the USA's, tax burden increases with income.

Should the tax system be fair, Should the rich pay tax proportionate to their income?

There is nothing fair about paying tax proportionate to income. Why should working people be taxed according to how much they contribute to the wealth of the community through their labor?? Income is always and everywhere The Wrong Thing To Tax.

The two most fundamental and widely accepted principles of sound taxation policy are, "ability to pay," which is measured by assets or net worth, and "beneficiary pay," which is perhaps best measured by value of privileges owned. By both of these criteria, almost all current commonly levied taxes, such as personal income tax, sales tax, corporate profits tax, VAT, etc. are grossly wrong-headed, anti-economic absurdities. The tax burden should be shifted radically off economic activity and onto the value of the rich's privileges -- the best tax we have, by far, is the land value portion of the property tax. Next would probably be the excise and sales taxes on alcohol and tobacco products.

[Rancid]

I think the key source of income for any government should be the spoils of war.

[late]

Income is always and everywhere The Wrong Thing To Tax.

The tax burden should be shifted radically off economic activity and onto the value of the rich's privileges -- the best tax we have, by far, is the land value portion of the property tax.

Nope. In fact, it looks insane to me.

Because you've got half a solution, and no way to close the gap.

Liz has you beat by a mile..

[Truth To Power]

Nope. In fact, it looks insane to me.

But you are wrong because you do not know the relevant facts of economics.

Because you've got half a solution, and no way to close the gap.

That is false. I have a full solution, which will more than close the gap:

https://economics.ucr.edu/papers/papers08/08-12old.pdf

Liz has you beat by a mile..

No; she is a politician, and thus constrained by what is politically defensible, but in terms of both economic efficiency and justice, her taxation proposals are incomparably inferior to mine.

[Truth To Power]

I think the key source of income for any government should be the spoils of war.

The Romans tried that, but they "ran out of other people's" spoil. Modern warfare is so stupendously destructive that the spoils can't even pay for it, let alone anything else governments might want to spend money on.

[Rancid]

The Romans tried that, but they "ran out of other people's" spoil. Modern warfare is so stupendously destructive that the spoils can't even pay for it, let alone anything else governments might want to spend money on.

A crying shame.

[late]

https://economics.ucr.edu/papers/papers08/08-12old.pdf

That only reinforced my opinion.

"If one adds to all this comparative and descriptive material the hundreds, if not thousands,
of papers and books devoted to various aspects of land taxation more generally, it is clear
that the present paper, although we have attempted to be as comprehensive as time and
resources permitted, is inevitably far from the last word on this subject. Complexity,
diversity, inadequate and imperfect information, and change have long been
characteristics of property taxes in many countries. The countries studied here are no
exception to this rule. While we venture some generalizations about land and property
taxes in the final section of this paper, we are well aware that the devil in land taxation is
in the details, and that the details are often devilishly hard to determine."
http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/decentralization/June2003Seminar/LandPropertyTaxation.pdf

No one is going to support nuking the tax system without gold standard proof. What you have is castle in the sky wishful thinking.

[Truth To Power]

That only reinforced my opinion.

Because that opinion is neither a reasoned nor an informed one.

No one is going to support nuking the tax system without gold standard proof.

Lots of people already do because unlike you, they are aware of the fact that the current system has far less proof to support it, so demands that any proposed reform must meet a far higher standard of proof are nothing but disingenuous excuses for maintaining a very bad status quo.

What you have is castle in the sky wishful thinking.

False. The astronomical unimproved value of land flat-out proves me right and you wrong with no further argumentation needed.

[late]

Because that opinion is neither a reasoned nor an informed one.

Lots of people already do because unlike you, they are aware of the fact that the current system has far less proof to support it, so demands that any proposed reform must meet a far higher standard of proof are nothing but disingenuous excuses for maintaining a very bad status quo.

False. The astronomical unimproved value of land flat-out proves me right and you wrong with no further argumentation needed.

Oh, thank you, that was wonderfully funny.

"Lots of people do"

Uh huh..

"The astronomical unimproved value of land flat-out proves me right and you wrong with no further argumentation needed."

Sounds like religion..

[Truth To Power]

Oh, thank you, that was wonderfully funny.

Thank you for agreeing that you cannot refute one word of it.

"Lots of people do"

Uh huh..

You need to get out more.

"The astronomical unimproved value of land flat-out proves me right and you wrong with no further argumentation needed."

Sounds like religion..

No it doesn't. It's just a fact. There is no other possible interpretation for the unimproved value of land than its expected taxable capacity.

[Unthinking Majority]

The rich avoid taxes, often legally, because they are smart and US politicians are corrupt and stupid.

I'm not mad at the rich, I'm mad at the corrupt politicians for doing whatever they want so they can use their dirty money to win elections. I'm mad at people who keep electing these corrupt pieces of human feces.

Americans had one of the very few politicians in modern American history that wasn't corrupt running for POTUS in Bernie Sanders, who was going to finally try to clean up the dump but Americans said "Derr Hillary and Trump, derr. Derr, socialists are bad and scary, DEERRRRR".

Now America is lying in a pile of its own vomit trying to pick up the pieces and wondering "what the hell happened?".

If America dies it will be from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the back of the mouth.

[late]

Thank you for agreeing that you cannot refute one word of it.

You need to get out more.

No it doesn't. It's just a fact. There is no other possible interpretation for the unimproved value of land than its expected taxable capacity.

You are truly a superb BS artist. That fantasy is yours to defend, sport.

BS is not substitute for facts you will never have. On top of that, could you be less lame??

Actually, there are a lot of possible interpretations, but thanks for proving what you have is one weird religion...

[pugsville]

While market manipulation is a factor, they make money primarily through privilege: legal entitlements to benefit from the abrogation of others' rights without making just compensation. The most important privileges are land titles, IP monopolies, bank licenses, oil and mineral rights, and broadcast spectrum allocations, in roughly that order, depending on the country.

Market manipulation. all of them.

I have known enough rich people personally to know that a significant fraction of them do work hard. But they mostly work hard not at productive endeavors, but at rent seeking: i.e., obtaining and exploiting something-for-nothing privileges such as those listed above.

Rubbish. Cleaners and taxi drivers all over the planet work a lot harder. I known my share of rich people and observed a lot of corroborates at "work" They do not work hard. Why should rich peole who "work hard" be any more privileged than poor people who work hard.

Why should rich people not pay their fair share of tax?

The great majority are. Some -- perhaps a low single-digit percentage -- do contribute enough to have earned the bulk of their wealth. I have known a few.

No never. Everything relies of vast amount of other people, without which they would not be able to achieve anything. Ie Society. Isolating the money thet make form the contest that it is made in iand sayng it;s soley their own effort is just not correct.

Evidence? He is certainly rich, but I have seen no indication that he enjoys a lavish lifestyle.

$100 Million dollar house is lavish. case closed, almost $1 million of lotus form a bond film.

Oh all the things he consumes , eats, and uses. How many does he make personally.

No, he is one of the few rich who has created valuable products using highly effective production systems that others did not and could not create.

How should things work in a tax system? Who make sthis judgement? how is it to done? A tick box are you saving the planet?

What tax system measure do you propose to apply this principle?

I don't think he declines to pay taxes, and I can certainly sympathize with his reluctance to pay unjust and harmful taxes, which almost all current taxes are.
.

He decline st o contribute to the society that supports him.

In fact, in the USA, total tax burden is remarkably consistent as a fraction of income. Of course, that is not remotely fair or equitable. In other advanced countries with more democratically accountable governments than the USA's, tax burden increases with income.

There is nothing fair about paying tax proportionate to income. Why should working people be taxed according to how much they contribute to the wealth of the community through their labor?? Income is always and everywhere The Wrong Thing To Tax.

It;s pretty direct measure of the benefit the individual reaps form being part of society. It;s faur.

The two most fundamental and widely accepted principles of sound taxation policy are, "ability to pay," which is measured by assets or net worth, and "beneficiary pay," which is perhaps best measured by value of privileges owned. By both of these criteria, almost all current commonly levied taxes, such as personal income tax, sales tax, corporate profits tax, VAT, etc. are grossly wrong-headed, anti-economic absurdities. The tax burden should be shifted radically off economic activity and onto the value of the rich's privileges -- the best tax we have, by far, is the land value portion of the property tax. Next would probably be the excise and sales taxes on alcohol and tobacco products.

Rubbish. This is just a con by rich propel to avoid paying tax.

[Truth To Power]

You are truly a superb BS artist. That fantasy is yours to defend, sport.

BS is not substitute for facts you will never have.

I pointed you to a peer-reviewed paper that states the relevant facts.

On top of that, could you be less lame??

Your continued inability to respond is noted.

Actually, there are a lot of possible interpretations,

No there aren't.

but thanks for proving what you have is one weird religion...

Thanks for proving that you have nothing to offer but name-calling.

It's always the same.

[late]

I pointed you to a peer-reviewed paper that states the relevant facts.

Your continued inability to respond is noted.

There are thousands of peer reviewed articles on this...

Your inability to respond is also noted.

You are tackling one of the hairiest problems in politics. Taxation gets an update typically once in a generation. The reason is that it's such a nightmare, after it's done, they refuse to touch it again.

Those are modest reforms.

You want to throw the whole thing out a window, start over from scratch, and your support from the academic community is nonexistent.

One paper

[Truth To Power]

Market manipulation. all of them.

No they aren't. You are just makin' $#!+ up. Market manipulation is when market value is deliberately divorced from fundamentals based on expected income yield, as is currently the case with Tesla. There is no need for "manipulation" of a market that accurate values the subsidies the greedy, privileged, parasitic rich get from society.

Cleaners and taxi drivers all over the planet work a lot harder.

No they don't. Their work is actually easier, as proved by the fact that so many people can do it. No one else can do what Musk does.

I known my share of rich people

No you haven't. You wouldn't be spewing such ill-informed $#!+ if you had.

and observed a lot of corroborates at "work"

What on earth do you incorrectly imagine you think "corroborates" might be?

They do not work hard.

I do not believe you have ever personally known any rich people who have earned their wealth through commensurate productive contributions. I have.

Why should rich peole who "work hard" be any more privileged than poor people who work hard.

No one should be privileged. But people should be rewarded according to how much they contribute, not how hard they work, and there are some rich people like Musk who contribute orders of magnitude more than any ordinary worker, however hard-working.

Why should rich people not pay their fair share of tax?

I have stated explicitly that they should. Their fair share is just determined by the value of their privileges, not their incomes.

No never.

You have offered no evidence for such a claim, nor will you ever be doing so. You are again just makin' $#!+ up. All you have is your envy and resentment of those who are harder working, more productive and successful than you.

I have KNOWN such people, personally. Deal with it.

Everything relies of vast amount of other people, without which they would not be able to achieve anything. Ie Society.

So what? That is irrelevant because like the rest of us, they already pay landowners full market value for permission to access such advantages.

Isolating the money thet make form the contest that it is made in iand sayng it;s soley their own effort is just not correct.

I didn't say it was solely their own effort, I said if their contribution made a difference of $X in total value produced, then they earned the $X difference their contribution made. See how that works?

It is definitely correct to isolate and distinguish things that are fundamentally different. Marx's fundamental "error" was pretending they are the same.

$100 Million dollar house is lavish. case closed, almost $1 million of lotus form a bond film.

You have offered no evidence for such a claim, and appear to be just makin' $#!+ up again:

https://www.loveproperty.com/gallerylis ... -francisco

https://www.architecturaldigest.com/sto ... ouse-texas

Oh all the things he consumes , eats, and uses. How many does he make personally.

Huh??? How much of what welfare recipients consume do they make personally? How much of it do any of us make personally? And how on earth could that possibly be relevant to whether his lifestyle is lavish?

You are just makin' $#!+ up, and spewing a filth-stream of ignorant, bigoted, disingenuous tripe with no basis in fact or logic.

How should things work in a tax system?

Read my previous post, and this time, try to find a willingness to know the facts it identifies.

Who make sthis judgement?

We all do. My judgement, unlike yours, just happens to be reasoned, informed, and objective.

how is it to done?

By abolishing privilege or, if it can't be abolished, taxing away its value. Read my previous post.

A tick box are you saving the planet?

No; you are just makin' $#!+ up again.

What tax system measure do you propose to apply this principle?

Repayment to the community of the subsidies privilege holders get (or, where possible, abolition of their privileges).

He decline st o contribute to the society that supports him.

GARBAGE. He has contributed the entire production of Tesla, SpaceX, and who knows how many other productive enterprises that would not have existed but for his contributions.

It;s pretty direct measure of the benefit the individual reaps form being part of society. It;s faur.

No it isn't. Your claims are just false and absurd. In what sense is the income someone earns by their contribution to production a measure of what they are getting from society??? If anything, it is the other way around: earned income is a pretty direct measure of how much society owes that person.

Rubbish.

Fact.

This is just a con by rich propel to avoid paying tax.

Yeah, I guess that must be why the rich and their paid sycophants oppose it with such maniacal ferocity, while they advocate more taxation of earned income, sales, value added, etc.

You are the one whose anti-economic, anti-justice, anti-factual, anti-rational nonsense serves the narrow financial interests of the greedy, privileged, parasitic rich, and I will thank you to remember it.

[Truth To Power]

There are thousands of peer reviewed articles on this...

Indeed. Which makes it all the more odd, then, that you have not cited even one of them in support of your false claims, and never will.

Your inability to respond is also noted.

That is nothing but false, despicable, disingenuous filth. You know very well that I have responded, identifying the relevant facts of economics, and cited peer-reviewed research in support thereof.

You, by contrast, have offered nothing but uninformed and disingenuous nay-saying.

Disgraceful.

You are tackling one of the hairiest problems in politics. Taxation gets an update typically once in a generation. The reason is that it's such a nightmare, after it's done, they refuse to touch it again.

Those are modest reforms.

No worthwhile project is easy.

You want to throw the whole thing out a window, start over from scratch,

No, there is both history and precedent in support of obtaining a larger fraction of government revenue from unimproved land value.

You have simply made $#!+ up again.

and your support from the academic community is nonexistent.

I have already proved that claim is objectively false. Here's more proof:

https://centaur.reading.ac.uk/88754/1/I ... ENTAUR.pdf

https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/j ... uality.pdf

And there are lots more where those came from.

One paper

As long as it continues to be infinitely many times the zero (0) papers you have cited in support of your claims:

[pugsville]

No they aren't. You are just makin' $#!+ up. Market manipulation is when market value is deliberately divorced from fundamentals based on expected income yield, as is currently the case with Tesla. There is no need for "manipulation" of a market that accurate values the subsidies the greedy, privileged, parasitic rich get from society.

No they don't. Their work is actually easier, as proved by the fact that so many people can do it. No one else can do what Musk does.

No you haven't. You wouldn't be spewing such ill-informed $#!+ if you had.

What on earth do you incorrectly imagine you think "corroborates" might be?

I do not believe you have ever personally known any rich people who have earned their wealth through commensurate productive contributions. I have.

No one should be privileged. But people should be rewarded according to how much they contribute, not how hard they work, and there are some rich people like Musk who contribute orders of magnitude more than any ordinary worker, however hard-working.

I have stated explicitly that they should. Their fair share is just determined by the value of their privileges, not their incomes.

You have offered no evidence for such a claim, nor will you ever be doing so. You are again just makin' $#!+ up. All you have is your envy and resentment of those who are harder working, more productive and successful than you.

I have KNOWN such people, personally. Deal with it.

So what? That is irrelevant because like the rest of us, they already pay landowners full market value for permission to access such advantages.

I didn't say it was solely their own effort, I said if their contribution made a difference of $X in total value produced, then they earned the $X difference their contribution made. See how that works?

It is definitely correct to isolate and distinguish things that are fundamentally different. Marx's fundamental "error" was pretending they are the same.

You have offered no evidence for such a claim, and appear to be just makin' $#!+ up again:

https://www.loveproperty.com/gallerylis ... -francisco

https://www.architecturaldigest.com/sto ... ouse-texas

Huh??? How much of what welfare recipients consume do they make personally? How much of it do any of us make personally? And how on earth could that possibly be relevant to whether his lifestyle is lavish?

You are just makin' $#!+ up, and spewing a filth-stream of ignorant, bigoted, disingenuous tripe with no basis in fact or logic.

Read my previous post, and this time, try to find a willingness to know the facts it identifies.

We all do. My judgement, unlike yours, just happens to be reasoned, informed, and objective.

By abolishing privilege or, if it can't be abolished, taxing away its value. Read my previous post.

No; you are just makin' $#!+ up again.

Repayment to the community of the subsidies privilege holders get (or, where possible, abolition of their privileges).

GARBAGE. He has contributed the entire production of Tesla, SpaceX, and who knows how many other productive enterprises that would not have existed but for his contributions.

No it isn't. Your claims are just false and absurd. In what sense is the income someone earns by their contribution to production a measure of what they are getting from society??? If anything, it is the other way around: earned income is a pretty direct measure of how much society owes that person.

Fact.

Yeah, I guess that must be why the rich and their paid sycophants oppose it with such maniacal ferocity, while they advocate more taxation of earned income, sales, value added, etc.

You are the one whose anti-economic, anti-justice, anti-factual, anti-rational nonsense serves the narrow financial interests of the greedy, privileged, parasitic rich, and I will thank you to remember it.

You have been captured by Capitalist propaganda which makes you unable to take an objective view of how the economy works.

You are unable to objectively consider anything the clashes with this world view you have accepted without question.

You have no renegaded with my post but preceded with the preconceived notions capitalists like Musk have imprinted on you.