[Sakura]

Zionism is a Far-Right Ideology that is related to Fascism, in my opinion. They are Regressive Nationalists who have provided more fuel for Anti-Semites than any Neo-Nazi. Israel needs to learn to live peacefully with its neighbors and end these attacks against Palestinians before any progress can be made.

[Politically Motivated]

Israel had no more right to exist than a Native American state in America. The only difference is that religion is invovled. Even the argument that a Jewish state should have been created for religious reasons falls flat on its face when you realise that, Jews who do not practice Judaism are entitled to settle there. How can a state be founded on religious principle, when a high percentage of the immigrants heading to the country, do not practise Judaism?

To justify the creation of a country on religious grounds is completely twisted. Did you know that Star Trek followers officially have a religion now? Are they to be awarded a state?

A Jewish homeland was and still is a good idea, however, under no circumstances should it have been placed in the Middle East. Under no circumstances should the United Nations have awarded the creation of the state after so much terrorism by radical Jewish groups. Feeling sorry for an act of which you took no part should not justify the creation of a state, which, was widely acknowledged to be a source of trouble for generations to come.

[PredatorOC]

What are views on Zionism?
Do they have a historical/religious right to the territory they occupy?

I think the Jewish people have a right to a homeland like every other cultural group. But of course the way it has been done has not been all that great.

As for historical/religious property rights. From a philosophical viewpoint, I would say that cultures have a right to their historical lands.

But from a realistic viewpoint, I have to admit that it rarely concludes in something positive. Too many wars have been fought and too many peoples have been shifted and killed for there to be any clear consensus as to who owns what. The argument 'I was here first' can be used, but it doesn't matter if we are referring to people who lived several generations ago.

If your grandfathers property was lost in a war, do you still have a right to it? And would you have to pay to get it back? The injustice didn't happen directly to you and you never owned it. And the people owning it now may have bought it legally from whomever took it from your grandfather. So no solution is without suffering. If you get the land without having to pay, the current owners might be devastated financially. If you have to pay, you technically don't get justice (return of stolen property, you just pay to get it back) and still drive out the current owners.

Of course it doesn't really matter what is fair, since these things are sorted out with guns. The strongest get their justice, until the other side grows strong enough to get some justice of their own. Its a vicious cycle that can only be stopped by accepting the status quo, even if unjust. Of course that is unlikely to happen.

- POC

[ThirdWorldSoldier]

I support the name of one of the original, if not the original, planes for the Holy Land, which is where Jerusalem, a holy city to Christianity, Judaism and Islam, is an international one under the mandate of the United Nations, and the Palestinians get a slice and the Jews get a piece as well.

So as the Jews get a territory, I guess in that way I do support Zionism/Territorialism. However, I don't agree with the way some Jews use the holocaust for a reason for them to have special status and untouchable.

Also, doesn't the Torah say the Messiah would give a homeland to the Jews?

[NewEra]

I've possessed a neutral standpoint on the Middle Eastern issue for a long time. I am recently formulating my opinion on this matter, although I find it unnecessary considering my lack of care for the Mesopotamian people. Anyway, I live in the State and have heavy influences from my Jewish friends and Christian media. If I make any mistake, please correct me on my attempt to shed light on this matter.

First off, I'm not a religious person, so I obviously have no interest in superstitious ideals like 'Zionism.' However, I do believe that Israel is an important economic partner and have much to contribute to the economy of the nations I care about (when compared to the Arab states). For that sole reason, I do not support the abrupt end to Israel's existence as it would be a sting to the global economy.

Naturally, as I do not believe in the Torah, I also believe that the concept of a Jewish race is moot. It was incorrect for Hitler and the Nazis to brandish the Jewish religious group as inferior race; the blood of a Jew is the blood of an Asian. Jews are no more of a race than Arabs or Christians. Granted, sons and daughters of Jewish mothers are Jews, but only if the offspring are to remain religiously Jewish, which would make them Jews due to religion, not blood.

Now:
The Jews have:
1. A common culture
2. A common language (Hebrew)
3. A common history

I have no idea where you live, but as an American, I an assure you that these traits are all but fantasies in my country. Considering that the U.S. has as much if not more Jews than Israel, I believe that Jews in America represent an important case of study.

The common culture of the Jews is vastly exaggerated. Sure, many celebrate Hanukkah and such, but it is heavily Americanized. Many non-Christians and even Jews in America celebrate Christmas, but that does not make them automatically religious Christians. Just because one practices something does not necessarily make the practitioners possess a genuine cultural commonality. Many of the Jews have lost meaning in the culture, especially since many are not even religiously Jewish. They are adherents of American culture, not Jewish culture. Due to the melting pot nature in America, we were able to keep the Jewish practices intact, just like any other cultural practices. However, this also means that practicing the old Jewish culture in modern America is simply giving lip-service without the belief in Judaic religious reasons.

Second, the common language is also extinct. Jews can barely write their names in Hebrew here in America. Like the entire modern Zionist movement, Judaism in America is frighteningly watered down. The Jewish 'people' today make Moses and Abraham look cute.

Thirdly, their 'common' history is a foreign history. For example, the Chinese working in railroads in America does not make the events part of the Chinese history. It is part of American history. The Great Leap Forward and Tienanmen Massacre are Chinese history. The Jews, in contrast, have very little national history. Their religion has a history in other parts of the world, but they are just that: histories of those other parts of the world, not the histories of the fertile crescent. As much as you want to make it, the Holocaust is part of German history that involved the Jews. It is not part of some fantasy Jewish national history. Again, if one is religiously Jewish, I can understand why you would believe that the Holocaust is part of the religiously Jewish history. However, if one is not religious, there is no reason to attach oneself to a religious history.

Your history is way off, driven hatred of Israel. Why can't you understand that both people have suffered, and both have legitimate claims. No conflict has one side.

No. Both people have suffered, agreed. However, both have no legitimate claims as they are both claiming to land based on religion. We don't live in the Medieval Age any more. Move on. Mixing superstition such as religion to real world politics is dangerous, as the Middle East has already become. Thank Europe for not declaring a crusade or else they would wipe out both the Jews AND Arabs within a week. However, the Europeans have learned form their past and have made secular national state, not religious ones.

The Jews don't deserve a homeland based on religion no more than the Christians of the past or the Muslims of today. The Zionist movement today has lost its meaning from the past as the entire faith is even dieing, especially in the States. What we have left is a made-up ethnicity that claims ancestry to a blood of some fanciful 'chosen people.' Little do they know that the entire concept of Jewish blood is legitimized only be the Torah. No religious faith=No right to claim Jewish 'blood.' If one IS to possess religious faith, I would argue against Judaism as a religion that the concept is unfounded. However, as that is dealing with faith, I would argue over at the Agora section of the forum.