[dcomplex]

They'd be quite happy to nuke the rest of the middle East just to stop the risk of another anti Jewish genocide.

That is not called supremacism. It is called self-preservation. But yes, it is absolutely true we would do that. Not just the Arab countries either, BTW, so I hope the Europeans don't try anything stupid either.

[Tailz]

Rich wrote: They'd be quite happy to nuke the rest of the middle East just to stop the risk of another anti Jewish genocide.

That is not called supremacism. It is called self-preservation. But yes, it is absolutely true we would do that. Not just the Arab countries either, BTW, so I hope the Europeans don't try anything stupid either.

I assume your both writing about the Samson Option. Such a plan is not a plan of self-preservation, but one of "We're taking you with us." plan of destruction for everyone. The Samson Option is not self-preservation, but M.A.D.

Tailz wrote: So you find the UK's democratic system to be flawed, simply because the media does not show pro-Israeli press?

Calling the mere mentioning of Hamas placing its weapons caches and command bases in schools, hospitals and children’s playgrounds “pro-Israeli bias” actually shows a great deal of pro-Palestinian bias. This has to be a massive reason (or the reason) why Israel would make strikes against these places.
But the reason I say this is a problem with the British democratic system (as it is with many similar democratic systems) is that it appears they are pandering to the sizable Muslim population and neglecting the very small Jewish population. The blatant media bias is a way of showing solidarity with Muslims who form a powerful voting block and who have shown many instances of being politically/religiously sensitive and intransigent. A democratic politician by nature is concerned with his own uncertain position and will mostly criticise and condemn those who he can expect the least backlash from, whether morally justified or not.

I don't see the connection between what the media publishes, and how the Government acts. You act as if the UK media is the UK government.

Tailz wrote: Really? I seem to remember you putting forth a view to debunk Mass that societies are not collectively responsible for the deeds of their governments. This was in debate that Mass put forth a view that all Israelis are responsible for the acts of their government. Yet here, you write that everyone in Gaza is responsible for deeds by Hamas.

I don't think I said that. I said Gazans probably make Hamas responsible, at least partly, for their problems because it rules the Strip.

You wrote: That's not the correct interpretation IMO. I think that since Hamas rules Gaza, Gazans make it responsible for whatever happens there.
This is akin to saying that since the Israeli government rules Israel, Israelis make it responsible for whatever happens. Thus collective responsibility. Which you previously appeared to debate against collective responsibility - which I agree with you against (collective responsibility). But here you appear to be be debating for collective responsibility.

I didn't make Gazans responsible for anything in my post and Gletkin at least was able to understand what I said with my example.

Why do you always try to put words in my mouth?

Putting words in your mouth? So you don't disagree against the concept of collective responsibility? Which appeared to be your your point of view a while ago when it came to crimes committed by a few Israeli's (I think we were discussing Price Tag attacks at the time), that not all Israelis are collectively responsible for the acts of a few Israeli criminals - Which I agree with. But in this case you appear to be stating the Gazans are collectively responsible for the acts of Hamas - which is the same scenario, just from the other side.

Oh.
Well...maybe. But the general context is one of continued occupation. A Hamas that chooses to continue being hardline would've probably tried to blame Israel had an independent Palestine stumbled economically. But genuine Israeli withdrawal and Palestinian independence would've made that harder to sell.

This I agree with, had the Israeli withdrawal not just been a reallocation of settlers and the reinforcement of a blockade, then the position of Hamas would have greatly been eroded as the "enemy" position and acts would not presently exist which they use as proof and justification for their continued struggle: Embargo, settlements on fellow Palestinian lands (in the west bank in this case), refugees, etc.

Hamas' position would have been greatly diminished, had Israel withdrawn, closed off Israel's own borders and left the Gaza Palestinians to their own devices. But the embargo collapsed Gaza's trade economy and gave Hamas (and all the other groups) something they could point to and say "See, we fight for you, because your oppressed by the blockade!"

[OllytheBrit]

Indeed. Israel's right to exist does not mean Israel has the right to ethnically cleanse, oppress and terrorize millions. Palestinians have the right to attack Israel since they ethnically cleanse, oppresses and terrorizes them.

I'd argue that since Israelis are vastly outnumbered by hostile neighbours, some of whom have declared they wish to see Israel 'wiped off the face of the earth', they're the ones who are being terrorized and threatened with 'ethnic cleansing'?

[layman]

vastly outnumbered by hostile neighbours

Define outnumbered? Population numbers alone would be misleading.

Israel is more secure than it is has ever been as far as I can see. I have no idea what they could do differently to respond to Hamas but this is probably counter productive.

[OllytheBrit]

Define outnumbered? Population numbers alone would be misleading.

Israel is more secure than it is has ever been as far as I can see. I have no idea what they could do differently to respond to Hamas but this is probably counter productive.

Well I'm obviously not including women and children!

[wat0n]

You wrote: That's not the correct interpretation IMO. I think that since Hamas rules Gaza, Gazans make it responsible for whatever happens there.
This is akin to saying that since the Israeli government rules Israel, Israelis make it responsible for whatever happens. Thus collective responsibility. Which you previously appeared to debate against collective responsibility - which I agree with you against (collective responsibility). But here you appear to be be debating for collective responsibility.

When the economy goes bad, who do most people (everywhere) generally blame?

Putting words in your mouth? So you don't disagree against the concept of collective responsibility? Which appeared to be your your point of view a while ago when it came to crimes committed by a few Israeli's (I think we were discussing Price Tag attacks at the time), that not all Israelis are collectively responsible for the acts of a few Israeli criminals - Which I agree with. But in this case you appear to be stating the Gazans are collectively responsible for the acts of Hamas - which is the same scenario, just from the other side.

And again putting words in my mouth, you are well-aware I don't agree with that reasoning

[Tailz]

That's not the correct interpretation IMO. I think that since Hamas rules Gaza, Gazans make it responsible for whatever happens there.

Tailz wrote: This is akin to saying that since the Israeli government rules Israel, Israelis make it responsible for whatever happens. Thus collective responsibility. Which you previously appeared to debate against collective responsibility - which I agree with you against (collective responsibility). But here you appear to be be debating for collective responsibility.

When the economy goes bad, who do most people (everywhere) generally blame?

In most societies, they blame the government, but in societies that are blockaded into a small territory by a hostile force, they blame the hostile force.

Tailz wrote: Putting words in your mouth? So you don't disagree against the concept of collective responsibility? Which appeared to be your your point of view a while ago when it came to crimes committed by a few Israeli's (I think we were discussing Price Tag attacks at the time), that not all Israelis are collectively responsible for the acts of a few Israeli criminals - Which I agree with. But in this case you appear to be stating the Gazans are collectively responsible for the acts of Hamas - which is the same scenario, just from the other side.

And again putting words in my mouth, you are well-aware I don't agree with that reasoning

Then why did you make all Palestinians responsible for the deeds of Hamas? As you did write, and I quote: "I think that since Hamas rules Gaza, Gazans make it responsible for whatever happens there."

[wat0n]

In most societies, they blame the government, but in societies that are blockaded into a small territory by a hostile force, they blame the hostile force.

If they don't hold Hamas responsible for their situation at all, how do you explain the decrease in support for Hamas since it took control over Gaza?

Then why did you make all Palestinians responsible for the deeds of Hamas? As you did write, and I quote: "I think that since Hamas rules Gaza, Gazans make it responsible for whatever happens there."

Writing that Gazans make Hamas responsible for what happens there hardly means I am making them responsible for that.

So why are you trying to put words in my mouth again?

[Wrath_014]

I'm going to repost it :

Well Well...

After leaving Gaza, foreign reporters have the guts to report the turths for once.

Journalists threatened by Hamas for reporting use of human shields

The international press in Gaza has hardly reported on how Hamas has operated in this round of fighting, and photos or video of Hamas fighters from recent weeks are rare.

The reason became apparent this week as several journalists reported being threatened and even expelled from Gaza for highlighting that the terrorist organization used civilian sites to attack Israel.

Reporters from Italy and the US corroborated the IDF’s explanation for explosions near the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City and by a playground in the nearby Shati refugee camp on Tuesday – that it was the result of misfired rockets by Gazan terrorists.

One altered his report, however and another waited to leave Gaza, because he feared retribution from Hamas. Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati tweeted a photo on Tuesday as he went through the Erez crossing into Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protecti ... lds-369619

Gaza reporters’ tweets: Hamas using human shields

Several journalists from around the world reported seeing rockets fired from civilian areas in Gaza in recent days, and received threatening tweets in return accusing them of “informing” the IDF.

On Wednesday, Peter Stefanovic of Australia’s Channel Nine News tweeted: “Hamas rockets just launched over our hotel from a site about two hundred metres away. So a missile launch site is basically next door.”

An account called @ThisIsGaza said this was Stefanovic’s fourth time “passing and fabricating information to Israel... from GAZA” and threatened to sue him.

Another account, @longitude0 wrote: “You are a cretin. Are you working for the IDF” and “in WWII spies got shot.”

Financial Times Jerusalem Bureau Chief John Reed reported seeing “two rockets fired toward Israel from near al-Shifa hospital, even as more bombing victims were brought in.”

Shifa, in Gaza City, is the main medical facility in the Strip.

In response, @Saritah_91 tweeted: “We’ll hold you responsible if Israel uses your tweet to bomb the hospital & then justify it.”

Another twitter user, @ Faysal_FreeGaza, said he’s “subtly justifying and encouraging IDF attacks on hospitals,” and @Maysara_ ara wrote: “Get out of Gaza u informant.”

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protecti ... lds-368689

Unprecedented! Italy, India, Finland and France Expose Hamas Human Shield Strategy

Four International Journalists Exposed the Hamas Human Shield Strategy This Week–

Journalists from Italy, Finland, India and France exposed the terror groups strategy to use Palestinians as human shields for their rocket attacks.

The evidence is overwhelming.

There are now FOUR confirmed cases of reporters on the ground in Gaza exposing the truth about Hamas – they’re intentionally firing from civilian areas, using the local population as human shields.

The latest story comes from France24, an outlet that has hardly been giving friendly coverage to Israel.

“This type of setup is at the heart of the debate,” says Gallagher. “The Israeli army has repeatedly accused the Palestinian militants of shooting from within densely populated civilian areas and that is precisely the type of setup we have here.” [MORE...]

[youtube]ABwLwSNwCeU[/youtube]
[youtube]Nu-e5qWXx-k[/youtube]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08 ... -strategy/

CONFIRMED: Hamas Rockets Bombed Palestinian Refugee Camp

Italian reporter Gabriele Barbati, who has now left Gaza and is no longer under direct threat of retaliation by Hamas, is telling the truth about what’s going on there. Hamas bombed the Palestinian camp in Shati – not Israel.
Twitchy reported:
"Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris"

It’s difficult to report the truth when jihadis are threatening to cut your head off. The major networks should run a disclaimer to that effect when they carry reports from Hamas controlled territory.

In another tweet Gabriele admitted:

“I confirm now that out #Gaza. The massacre of children yesterday in Shati isn’t #Israele’s fault. #IDF True release. It was Hamas rocket.”

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/07 ... ugee-camp/

Foreign Journalists Acknowledge Hamas’ Human Shields Tactics

Buried in a number of foreign media reports from Gaza are acknowledgments that amid the images of Palestinian civilians, Hamas terrorists are operating amongst the population. Here are some examples:

1. Globe and Mail correspondent in Gaza, Patrick Martin, wrote in his [url="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/thousands-flee-gaza-homes-as-israel-expands-ground-assault/article19683732/"]article[/url] from 20 July:

The presence of militant fighters in Shejaia became clear Sunday afternoon when, under the cover of a humanitarian truce intended to allow both sides to remove the dead and wounded, several armed Palestinians scurried from the scene.

Some bore their weapons openly, slung over their shoulder, but at least two, disguised as women, were seen walking off with weapons partly concealed under their robes. Another had his weapon wrapped in a baby blanket and held on his chest as if it were an infant.

2. Canadian TV correspondent Janis Mackey Frayer tweeted the following on 20 July:

"Inside Shejaiyya we also saw several #Hamas gunmen. One passed dressed in a woman's headscarf... tip of a gun poked out from under cloak."
5:22 PM - 20 Jul 2014

3. Washington Post correspondent Willian Booth reporting from Gaza, wrote in an article from 15 July:

At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.

4. Another report by Washington Post correspondents from 17 July recounts:

During the lull, a group of men at a mosque in northern Gaza said they had returned to clean up the green glass from windows shattered in the previous day’s bombardment. But they could be seen moving small rockets into the mosque.

5. Wall Street Journal Correspondent Nick Casey tweeted the following (since removed):


6. The Japanese daily Mainichi’s correspondent in Gaza reported on 21 July:

Hamas criticizes that “Israel massacres civilians”. On the other hand, it tries to use evacuating civilians and journalists by stopping them and turning them into “human shields”, counteracting thoroughly with its guerrilla tactics…

Hamas’s “Human Shield” strategy is also aimed at foreign journalists…During the current battle, Hamas’s checkpoint was bombarded, and there was temporary checkpoint at another location. To some 20 journalists who wished to leave, Hamas staff member suddenly told, “Israel closed the checkpoint… However, when I called IDF personnel at the checkpoint, he said that “We haven’t got attacked and we are open as usual…”. While were discussing what to do, the same Hamas staff member shouted, “in 5 minutes Israel seems to conduct an airstrike on here. Return immediately to Gaza!” All the journalists returned to Gaza by car. But we remembered that Hamas, during the conflict with Israel in November 2012, also closed checkpoints to block outflow.

7. Huffington Post’s Middle East reporter, Sophia Jones, tweeted on 15 July:
"Journalists, including very sick Palestinian patients seeking treatment in Israel, are stuck in gaza now bc border closed by Hamas"

http://honestreporting.com/foreign-jour ... s-tactics/

Incredible Videos Reveal How Gaza Terror Groups Appears to Be Using Journalists as Human Shields

New videos appear to show how Hamas and other Gaza terrorist groups are launching rockets next to foreign correspondents’ broadcast positions, thus turning reporters into human shields to deter Israeli military counter-strikes on rocket-launchers.

The videos emerged as several reporters said they had been threatened by Hamas for reporting on its placing its military assets next to sensitive sites like mosques and schools.

This live report from France 24 correspondent Gallagher Fenwick was interrupted when a rocket was launched toward Israel from next to his camera position:
[youtube]WXdEWrN3IEw[/youtube]

“Rockets were just shot right next to where we are standing, so I’m not going to sit here, stand here very long, because usually there is a strike just moments after this occurs,” Fenwick said.

Another video showed Al Jazeera correspondent Nicole Johnston ducking after a rocket was launched near her camera position.

[youtube]k8c5KCQTkoY[/youtube]

The pro-Israel blog Elder of Ziyon drew readers’ attention to a Facebook post by Israeli media figure Michael Grynszpan who described how Hamas is controlling the message conveyed by the international media:

I met today with a Spanish journalist who just came back from Gaza. We talked about the situation there. He was very friendly. I asked him how comes we never see on television channels reporting from Gaza any Hamas people, no gunmen, no rocket launcher, no policemen.. We only see civilians on these reports, mostly women and children.

He answered me frankly: “It’s very simple, we did see Hamas people there launching rockets, they were close to our hotel, but if ever we dared pointing our camera on them they would simply shoot at us and kill us.”

Wooh, impressive. Then I asked him “would you mind saying that on camera? I can film you explaining this…”

For some reason I cannot really understand he refused and almost ran away. I guess my camera is as dangerous as Hamas threats…

“So just for you to know, the truth will never appear on the images you see on television,” Grynszpan concluded.

The Jerusalem Post Thursday ran a story detailing how other reporters have been threatened by Hamas, which is operating out of Gaza’s main hospital Shifa. From the Jerusalem Post:

The French newspaper Liberation published an article last week which detailed how Hamas interrogated French-Palestinian journalist Radjaa Abu Dagga and threatened to throw him out of Gaza – all at Shifa. The article was later removed at Abu Dagga’s request.

They interrogated Abu Dagga and insisted that he worked for the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah, even though he said he worked for French media and an Algerian radio station. He was instructed to immediately leave Gaza without his papers.

Pro-Palestinian activists and journalists, including Fadi Arouri from Al-Ayyam, reported on Wednesday that RT (formerly Russia Today) correspondent Harry Fear was told to leave Gaza after he tweeted that Hamas fired rockets into Israel from near his hotel.

In another tweet from last week, Fear called Al-Wafa Hospital “the hospital with human shields.”

A reporter for the Huffington Post, Sophia Jones, tweeted on July 20, “The Israeli side of the border with Gaza was briefly open today, but Hamas did not let journalists leave Gaza.”

The Weekly Standard’s Noah Pollak in July pointed out how the New York Times has not published photos of Hamas fighters. He wrote:

It appears the Times is silently but happily complying with a Hamas demand that the only pictures from Gaza are of civilians and never of fighters. The most influential news organization in the world is thus manufacturing an utterly false portrait of the battle—precisely the portrait that Hamas finds most helpful: embattled, victimized Gaza civilians under attack by a cruel Israeli military.

A review of the Times‘s photography in Gaza reveals a stark contrast in how the two sides are portrayed. Nearly every picture from Israel depicts tanks, soldiers, or attack helicopters. And every picture of Gaza depicts either bloodied civilians, destroyed buildings, overflowing hospitals, or other images of civilian anguish. It is as one-sided and misleading a depiction of the Gaza battle as one can imagine.

That trend is not limited to the New York Times. Other media outlets covering the Gaza conflict have produced no images either of Hamas militants or of rockets being launched in real time even as the videos above show they are being positioned next to reporter live-shot locations.

Israeli Army Captures Hamas Manual on Using Human Shield

The Israelis captured what they say is the instruction manual on how to maximize civilian casualties. The book details facts such as the fact that the Israelis try to keep civilian casualties to a minimum and how important it is to drive the numbers up to enrage liberal leaders around the world.



In recent days, we have seen evidence that Hamas is using just those tactics. Just yesterday, an Indian reporter saw and video taped Hamas setting up a rocket launcher next to a hotel. Any attempt to hit the launcher would surely result in significant civilian casualties.

Just a day before that, a Finnish reporter for the “Helsinki Dispatch” reported on missile launchers being set up behind a hospital. The hospital, Al Shifa Hospital, would have resulted in many civilian casualties if attacked. The funny thing is after she reported on it, she objected to Israeli news sources using quotes from her report to post “propaganda.” Just another unbiased reporter. Here is her report:


There have been three UN schools attacked by Israel that contained a stockpile of missiles. Funny how the UN objects to Israel practicing self defense but not a word about how Hamas is using the UN to hide munitions and launch attacks from.

And who is counting the casualties? Hamas. All American media companies use the numbers spoon fed by Hamas. We also know by satellite data that many of the missiles Hamas has fired have fallen short on onto the Palestinian civilian population.

Again we see the hypocrisy.......