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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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#15164390
Suchard wrote:That Jews were persecuted in the recent past is no moral defense for Jews in Israel to act dishonorably toward Palestinians today. Two wromgs do not make a right.


It goes more than that. As I said, the behaviour of the Arab states as well as Iran do not help matters.

I mean, what benefit does it do to let them under the influence of their own people?

I actually hold the same view against larger entities like China or India, many of whom struggle for self-determination but their behaviour do not justify so.
#15164395
Patrickov wrote:It goes more than that. As I said, the behaviour of the Arab states as well as Iran do not help matters.

I mean, what benefit does it do to let them under the influence of their own people?

I actually hold the same view against larger entities like China or India, many of whom struggle for self-determination but their behaviour do not justify so.

You have not conceded that the treatment of Jews by the Third Reich gives Israeli Jews no justification to mistreat Palestinians in their homeland today.
#15164396
Suchard wrote:You have not conceded that the treatment of Jews by the Third Reich gives Israeli Jews no justification to mistreat Palestinians in their homeland today.


Why should I concede?
1. They at least partly contributed to their own problems, and
2. The Jews are a much organized people that some of those atrocities are possibly misunderstanding or depends heavily on perception.

I am not in a position to agree with you (most sources are heavily biased one way or another), and your method of coercion is actually driving me to the other side.
#15164417
Patrickov wrote:Why should I concede?
1. They at least partly contributed to their own problems, and
2. The Jews are a much organized people that some of those atrocities are possibly misunderstanding or depends heavily on perception.

I am not in a position to agree with you (most sources are heavily biased one way or another), and your method of coercion is actually driving me to the other side.

You should concede that the mistreatment of Jews in the last century does not justify Israeli Jews today mistreating Palestinians in their own homeland because in the first post I replied to, you had stated that the Jews have a case for their claim to legitimacy in Palestine on account of their treatment during WWII. On another note and in the same response, you said that Arabs have not helped the Palestinians much. Now, I believe it is a mistake to conflate the two topics. Let us break it down to the two elements of your argument. The Third Reich treatment of Jews is altogether a different matter which some have used in their rhetoric to justify an Israeli right to be in Palestine and to do what they like in the Occupied Territories.
#15164744
Suchard wrote:You should concede that the mistreatment of Jews in the last century does not justify Israeli Jews today mistreating Palestinians in their own homeland because in the first post I replied to, you had stated that the Jews have a case for their claim to legitimacy in Palestine on account of their treatment during WWII. On another note and in the same response, you said that Arabs have not helped the Palestinians much. Now, I believe it is a mistake to conflate the two topics. Let us break it down to the two elements of your argument. The Third Reich treatment of Jews is altogether a different matter which some have used in their rhetoric to justify an Israeli right to be in Palestine and to do what they like in the Occupied Territories.


As I said, I don't agree 100% with the "Jews today mistreating Palestinians unjustified" statement.

Some Palestinians' behaviour matter here, because they hardened the hardline Israeli in power, and made the peace seeking Israeli look weak or stupid. In some sense those bombers made further persecutions against them more justified.

One more point to consider is that as time passes, more and more Israelis in the land are born there and grow there, which means they are at least equally native. The likes of you, however, seem to suggest something that would probably cause their removal or even death. I strongly believe you need to have this tackled before convincing me that "the Jews today mistreating Palestinians is unjustified", because as I see, the other choice would be the persecution of more innocent Jews, without much improvement to the Palestinians.
#15164957
Patrickov wrote:As I said, I don't agree 100% with the "Jews today mistreating Palestinians unjustified" statement.

Some Palestinians' behaviour matter here, because they hardened the hardline Israeli in power, and made the peace seeking Israeli look weak or stupid. In some sense those bombers made further persecutions against them more justified.

One more point to consider is that as time passes, more and more Israelis in the land are born there and grow there, which means they are at least equally native. The likes of you, however, seem to suggest something that would probably cause their removal or even death. I strongly believe you need to have this tackled before convincing me that "the Jews today mistreating Palestinians is unjustified", because as I see, the other choice would be the persecution of more innocent Jews, without much improvement to the Palestinians.

Hold on there! I made only one point, namely, that your reference to the treatment of Jews in Europe during WWII is no argument to justify their treatment of Palestinians in Palestine. I told you that it is an error on your part to make that argument. I also said (or wrote) that you are confusing the issue by mentioning something different which is the attitude of Arabs. How you get that to mean "the likes" of me are advocating the murder of innocent Jews is deplorable.
#15164985
Suchard wrote:I made only one point, namely, that your reference to the treatment of Jews in Europe during WWII is no argument to justify their treatment of Palestinians in Palestine.


That's not a fact to begin with. If the Isreali behaviour is to be justified it has to be among the Israeli and the Palestinians themselves, which is what I have been asserting.

You surely agree their struggle at their current place is more recent than their persecution by Germans?
#15165054
Patrickov wrote:That's not a fact to begin with. If the Isreali behaviour is to be justified it has to be among the Israeli and the Palestinians themselves, which is what I have been asserting.

You surely agree their struggle at their current place is more recent than their persecution by Germans?

This is exactly the point I was making. I think we are in agreement on this.
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