[Maxim Litvinov]

Hamas is indeed winning the propaganda war but it will be a Phyrric victory if ever there was one...

There never was one. A Pyrrhic victory, on the other hand...

[Nattering Nabob]

There never was one. A Pyrrhic victory, on the other hand...

Thank you Max...the sad part is that I Googled Pyrrhic in order to ensure proper spelling.

[noemon]

Dempsey, since i have been trashing your propaganda efforts, you have been trying to bad-mouth Greece, quoting a clown, that is scorned at in Greece, and Mr Theodorakis' interview does not constitute evidence either.

Theodorakis states:

"The Jews were picturesque. I remember that for the old women, the Jews were the ones that crucified Christ!

"In 1932 I was in Ioannina. There was a very big Jewish community there. I played with the Jewish boys all the time. My grandmother was very religious. She had a room full of icons. She sang psalms. Much of my music was influenced by her religious singing. And I remember that in springtime she said to me: Now that it's Easter, don't go to the Jewish quarter. Because during Easter the Jews put Christian boys in a barrel with knives inside. Afterward they drink their blood."

And you find that as evidence that the Greek wide opinion, shares Karatzaferis views?

This is pretty pathetic and petty.

[Dempsey]

del

[noemon]

Read further

First of all you added, this extract, just now, second of all why dont you point out the sentence(s), instead of trolling yet another thread about Greece, ever since i trashed your propaganda, and third, I read further, and there is nothing to suggest "a wide Greek opinion" agreement with Karatzaferis.

EDIT:

And about 10 minutes after this post, you edited again and added more bullshit, and forgot to add the parts which do not suit your case:

Answer: "For me the root of evil today is the policy of President Bush. It is a fascist policy. I cannot understand how is it that the Jewish people, who have been the victims of Nazism, can support such a fascist policy. No other people in the world support those policies but Israel! This situation saddens me. I am a friend of Israel. I am a friend of the Jewish people. But the policy of Sharon and the support for the policy of Bush darkens the image of Israel. I am afraid that Sharon is going to lead the Jews - just as Hitler led the Germans - to the root of evil."

While you posted:

Question: Mr. Theodorakis, on November 4, 2003 you said in this house the words that shocked Jews and non-Jews across the world. You said that the Jewish people are at the root of evil. What did you mean?

..."No. And I was very much hurt by the Jewish reaction to what I said. It was not a civilized reaction. I got hundreds and hundreds of poisonous e-mails from Jews all over the world. I couldn't understand this hatred toward me. I fought against racism all my life. I was for Israel. I wrote "Mauthausen."
After all that, how could I become from one day to the next an anti-Semite?"

And that paragraph above goes in between, but you also forgot a larger chunk after this paragraph and in between the "childhood" part addressed above, where the Jewish interviewer explains himself:

Let me explain to you the context for this reaction. Many Jews have a renewed fear of Europe. We are afraid that there is a new kind of anti-Semitism in Europe. So when you said what you said there was a feeling of thou too, Brutus. There was a feeling that even our old friend Theodorakis turned against us.

"I don't believe there is anti-Semitism in Europe. There is a reaction against the policy of Sharon and Bush. I think it's artificial to think there is a new anti-Semitism. It's an excuse. It's a way to avoid
self-criticism. Rather than ask themselves what is wrong with the policy of Israel, Jews say the Europeans are against us because of the new anti-Semitism. Because they don't love us. And even Theodorakis says we are at the root of evil. This is a sick reaction."

Why? In what way is it a sick reaction?

"Because this kind of reaction is relevant to the psychopathology of the Jewish people. They want to feel victims. They want to have this comforting feeling. We are in the right, we are again victims. Let's create another ghetto. It's a masochistic reaction." The Jews are masochists?

"There is psychological masochism in the Jewish tradition."

Is there sadism as well?

"I'm certain that when Diaspora Jews talk among themselves, they feel satisfied. They feel that now, when we are so close to the greatest power in the world, no one can do anything to us. We can do whatever we like. This is why the claim of new anti-Semitism is not only a sick reaction, it's a sly reaction as well."

In what way is it sly?

"Because it really allows the Jews to do whatever they want. Not only psychologically, but also politically, it gives the Jews an excuse. The sense of victimhood. It gives them a license to hide the truth. There is no Jewish problem in Europe today. There is no anti-Semitism."

You dear Dempsey are a propagandist of the lowest order, just like you did previously, trolling around attacking Greece and the Greeks as a whole, just because i 've caught you red-handed posting propaganda numerous times the past days.

And to conclude about antisemitism:

Misha Glenny writes that Greek Jews had never "encountered anything remotely as sinister as north European antisemitism. The twentieth century had witnessed the rise of anti-Jewish sentiment among Greeks... but "it attracted an insignificant minority".

The European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia 2002-2003 report on antisemitism in Greece mentioned several incidents over the two-year period making note that there were no instances of physical or verbal assaults on Jews, along with examples of "good practices" for countering prejudice. The report concluded that "...in 2003 the Chairman of the Central Jewish Board in Greece stated that he did not consider the rise in antisemitism to be alarming."

[Verv]

Israel is punching above its weight in the propaganda war as it always does. It has developed media strategies, has Israeli journalists on its side in the media, has a propaganda unit and has a powerful lobby in Washington.

The reason that there is so much outcry about Israel is not that Hamas is doing a better job at propaganda... it's just that there are only a certain number of children you can kill and a certain number of people that you can effectively stick in a concentration camp before the average viewer starts to question your ethics.

And that is exactly where you have been sucked into the Hamas propaganda -- by belief that the majority of people dying are Palestinian children.

And furthermore ignoring the fact that Hamas does its best to insert itself in places that will maximize civilian casualties, which is cowardice on the most profound level.

I wonder -- do you have as strong of feelings for the hundreds who die by Hamas because they supported Fatah or the others who die because they violate some Islamic laws or another? Do you have interest in that, ever?

And if it is the case where people are just sickened by the deaths of children, how come we hear so little about Zimbabwe? Obviously, someone is doing something to portray what is happening with a certain spin.

[noemon]

Hey Verv what exactly about putting women and children in a safe house, and then bombing the house is dirty "Hamas propaganda"? And how do you justify it?

What about bombing the UN in 2 separate occasions, without any militant operating from the target is "Hamas propaganda"?

Get real, and avoid necroposting.

[Dempsey]

Shelling of UN School: The Truth Emerges

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ional/home

Reporter Patrick Martin of the Globe & Mail investigates the shelling of Palestinian gunmen near a UN school that led to the tragic death of 43 civilians. His conclusion? The facts don't support the accepted story that the school itself was shelled:

Physical evidence and interviews with several eyewitnesses, including a teacher who was in the schoolyard at the time of the shelling, make it clear: While a few people were injured from shrapnel landing inside the white-and-blue-walled UNRWA compound, no one in the compound was killed. The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the street, where all three mortar shells landed.

Stories of one or more shells landing inside the schoolyard were inaccurate.

While the killing of 43 civilians on the street may itself be grounds for investigation, it falls short of the act of shooting into a schoolyard crowded with refuge-seekers.



http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

Feb 6, 2009 3:16 | Updated Feb 6, 2009 9:28

UN to probe Hamas for use of children
By RUTH EGLASH

The United Nations is ready to address Hamas's use of children as human shields during last month's IDF offensive in Gaza, the UN special representative for children and armed conflict told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.

"We have not yet dealt directly with the human shield issue, but we will now mention it in our reports," Radhika Coomaraswamy said in an exclusive interview following a four-day visit to the region.

"It is still very difficult for us to say that it was actually happening and we still need to conduct a full investigation into what exactly took place... but we are not denying that it happened; it is absolutely possible that Hamas was using its civilians as human shields," she said.

However, Coomaraswamy said that the UN's policy not to meet with leading members of the Hamas government - because it was officially considered a terrorist organization - seriously hampered all types of humanitarian relief work in the Gaza Strip.

IDF: Only 250 of Gaza fatalities were civilians


Senior military sources say recent findings indicate at least 700 of those killed in Gaza offensive were gunmen. Palestinians claim only 300 armed men killed

Hanan Greenberg Published: 01.26.09, 12:38 / Israel News

A continuing IDF investigation into the number of civilian Palestinian casualties during the Israeli offensive in Gaza indicated that only 250 of the fatalities were civilians.

The military estimates that between 1,100 and 1,200 people were killed during the offensive. Some 700 of are believed to be militants and most are believed to be Hamas operatives.

Aftermath

The IDF is still trying to ascertain the identity of the remaining fatalities, but security sources said many would probably turn out to be militants as well. "Hamas is familiar with the numbers and is doing everything it can to concealed them," said an IDF source.

The data presented by the Palestinian is vastly different: Palestinian Groups operating in the Strip have reported 92 of the fatalities as gunmen, 48 of whom were affiliated with Hamas, 32 with Islamic Jihad, 10 with the Popular Resistance Committees' Salah a-Din Brigades and two with the Mujahedeen Brigades.

According to a Palestinian source, the majority of the Palestinian fatalities were killed in air raids. The Palestinians reported 200 police officers were killed in the first day of the Gaza shelling, alone.

Hamas claimed that "the Israelis are concealing their losses and lying about the losses suffered by the Palestinians."

'Ratio of 1:3'

The military is doing everything it can to compile accurate data regarding the identity of those killed in Gaza, including debriefing soldiers and cross-referencing their information with intelligence.

Gaza Division Chief Brigadier-General Eyal Eisenberg alluded to the fact that the majority of the Palestinian fatalities were Hamas operatives, but refused to specify numbers.

The IDF has yet to verify the identity of some 200 fatalities, mostly men in their 20s, whose identification is delayed because they are still buried under the rubble. The defense establishment believed many of them would prove to be Hamas men.

Many of the fatalities were considered to be civilians at first, because there were no weapons found with them, said a military source, "But that method of operation is consistent with the way Hamas was hiding in the midst of civilians, moving between their strongholds with no weapons. In many cases someone thought to be a civilian casualty turned out to be a Hamas operative after we ran our checks."


The civilian-gunman casualty ratio, he added, was one to three, proving that the IDF was targeting Hamas and not civilians. The IDF stressed that the forces took significant precautions in order to avoid harming any civilians; but considering the way that Hamas chose to involve civilians in the fighting, mounting a surgical strike resulting in absolutely no civilian casualties was impossible.

[noemon]

Hey Dempsey what is justifiable about putting women and children in a house to keep them safe by the IDF and one hour later bomb them?

What is it exactly?

And your new article is clear regarding the Hamas human shielding.

It is still very difficult for us to say that it was actually happening and we still need to conduct a full investigation into what exactly took place

And being "possible" is not an affirmation of actually taking place.

Whatever the case about the human shields in a general manner, unless you provide particular evidence that these women and children put there by the IDF only to be bombed later were somehow disguised Hamas militants, you are in no way capable of justifying said event. Particular evidence for particular events, not possibilities and arbitrary arguments up in the air for atmosphere.

[Dempsey]

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/29/ ... n-jabalya/

Israel did not attack UN school in Jabalya
Neil D, January 29th 2009, 4:09 pm

On the 6th of January the Israeli army returned fire at Hamas terrorists in Jabalya who were using a mortar battery to target Israeli personnel. They killed and identified at least two Hamas operatives. At the same time a number of innocent civilians died in the attack. The UN’s World Health Organisation have news of this event on their site:

42 people were killed 6 Jan in an UNRWA school in an Israeli attack.
[...]
On 6 January, 42 people were killed following an attack on a UNRWA school transformed into a refugee site for displaced people. Dozens were injured and evacuated.

The UN were extremely concerned by this attack since “International Humanitarian Law requires all medical personnel and facilities be protected at all times, even during armed conflict. Attacks on them are grave violations of International Humanitarian and Human Rights laws.” Indeed, the UN recently have recently called for an investigation of alleged war crimes, and this report in The Independent notes the attack in Jabalya when discussing the UN’s call:

the call came at the culmination not only of a rising civilian death toll but also a series of attacks on UN installations and, in some cases, the people who were under the UN’s care at the time. The most lethal of these was an earlier shelling in which 43 internally displaced Gazans, sheltering in the Fakhura UNRWA school in Jabalya, were killed on 6 January.

Yet even at the time, there was some confusion as to the target of the Israeli attack. Here in this Guardian editorial, the day after the attack, it is noted that the Israeli shells fell outside, as opposed to on or in, the UN refuge:

Three shells exploded outside a United Nations school in Jabalya refugee camp, where more than 300 Palestinians had sought refuge. Over 40 died and 55 were injured. It was waiting to happen.

So, the shells fell outside the school, but it still seems as though the effect of the Israeli attack was to kill over 40 people. If you are in a UN refuge, it makes little difference to you if you are killed because of shells hitting you directly, or indirectly. However, it nows seems that reports of the deaths in the UN refuge are inaccurate. No one died in the UN refuge.

Physical evidence and interviews with several eyewitnesses, including a teacher who was in the schoolyard at the time of the shelling, make it clear: While a few people were injured from shrapnel landing inside the white-and-blue-walled UNRWA compound, no one in the compound was killed. The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the street, where all three mortar shells landed.

Stories of one or more shells landing inside the schoolyard were inaccurate.

While the killing of 43 civilians on the street may itself be grounds for investigation, it falls short of the act of shooting into a schoolyard crowded with refuge-seekers.

The teacher who was in the compound at the time of the shelling says he heard three loud blasts, one after the other, then a lot of screaming. “I ran in the direction of the screaming [inside the compound],” he said. “I could see some of the people had been injured, cut. I picked up one girl who was bleeding by her eye, and ran out on the street to get help.”But when I got outside, it was crazy hell. There were bodies everywhere, people dead, injured, flesh everywhere.”

The teacher, who refused to give his name because he said UNRWA had told the staff not to talk to the news media, was adamant: “Inside [the compound] there were 12 injured, but there were no dead.”

So, in fact, the Israeli army did not attack a UN refuge. The shells landed outside the UN refuge and no-one in the refuge was killed. The shells also landed outside an auto-body shop, so it may as well be termed an attack on an auto-body shop.

So, firstly, one has to ask why the UN stated that deaths occured within the compound, when none had. When John Ging, UNRWA Director of Operations in Gaza, visited the UN school in Jabaliya he stated in a press release, which says an Israeli strike on UNWRA school occurred:

“There’s nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorized and traumatized. These men, women and children are all seeking safety and there is no safety in Gaza at the moment, even in an UNRWA school. This is unacceptable.”

In fact, he is wrong. It appears that the UN refuge was safe. To be fair, he has accepted this now, but it would have been nice for the UN to get its facts right or at least shut up until the facts where clear.

Secondly, it is noticable how certain parts of the media leapt onto the story with some glee. The Independent takes first prize with its headline “Massacre of innocents as UN school is shelled“. Those with a biblical eye may spot the reference in the article’s title to King Herod’s attempt to kill Jesus by murdering all young children in Bethlehem. Interesting that racial agitation, in the form of raising the myth of Jews as the killers of Christ, should slip so easily into a modern liberal newspaper.

[noemon]

You are avoiding the question by spamming with dubious articles from questionable sources that deny widely reported events that were not even denied by the IDF during the time they happened.

Again:

Hey Dempsey what is justifiable about putting women and children in a house to keep them safe by the IDF and one hour later bomb them?

What is it exactly?

[QatzelOk]

The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the street, where all three mortar shells landed.

Oh, these children were outside the school, rather than inside the building it when the IDF bombed them to death.

See, the scandal was that the kids were inside the school. But if they had run outside and were killed in the yard, then I think this means Israel is a moral state that only wants peace.

And we can thank Liberal Media for once again lying about where the children were vis-a-vis the architectural elements of this educational institution.

[danholo]

No, Qatz... The scandal is that people love the taste of shit and spread it all over the place so others have to suffer from the bad smell.

IDF releases names of UN school deaths
By YAAKOV KATZ

The IDF's Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA), which earlier this week told The Jerusalem Post that 12 Palestinians were killed in the shelling near a UN school in Jabalya, north of Gaza City - and not 42 as claimed by Palestinian officials at the time - has now given the Post the names of seven of those fatalities.

The seven names - two females and five males - bring the number of those named by the IDF as having been killed in the incident to nine. Within hours of the incident on January 6, the IDF named two Hamas operatives, Immad Abu Askar and Hassan Abu Askar, as being among the dead. The IDF said at the time the area next to the school had been used by terrorists to fire mortar shells at troops stationed nearby, and that the IDF had fired back.

The CLA, which is completing a register of Palestinian fatalities throughout Operation Cast Lead, and has identified more than 1,200, told the Post on Monday that the civilian death toll from the 22-day conflict was no higher than a third of the total fatalities, and that the international community had been duped by Hamas "fabrications" that pointed to twice as many civilian deaths.

The incident at the UN school was a key case in point, said the CLA's head, Col. Moshe Levi, since initial reports erroneously stating that the IDF had fired at the school, and putting the death toll at 42, were widely adopted at first by the UN and various NGOs. Earlier this month, the UN corrected its position and confirmed that the shelling and all of the fatalities had taken place outside the school compound.

The UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has been working to compile its own data on the number and nature of all the Gaza casualties, "to gain clarity" on the controversial issue, a UN official said earlier this week.

Levi said nine Hamas operatives and three noncombatants died in the incident near the school. The seven names newly released by the CLA were: Ranin Abdullah Sameh, 12, Hadifa Jihad Kahloud, 17, Faris Mahmoud Faraj Allah, 21, Nafed Abu Abid, 22, Abed Muhammad Kadas, 25, Ayman Ahmad el-Khourd, 35, and Basem Abdel Gabin, 40.

The CLA would not specify how it had obtained the names. Officials said these names were being checked and categorized as combatants or noncombatants.

On the day of the incident, officials further said, officers from the CLA contacted the Palestinian Health Ministry and were told that three Palestinian civilians had been killed and that Hamas was hiding the identities of the remaining casualties.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

Qatz loves human excrement and wants us to enjoy it too! How thoughtful.

[sploop!]

Are Policemen civilians?