[dcomplex]

So were the local non-Jewish inhabitants in the beginning, let us not forget the roots of the Haganah was the local security groups that Jewish and Arab farmers would form together to protect their farms from Bedouin raiders. The hard line Zionists didn't have much of an effect (as they were the main agitators, forbidding Jewish and Arab interaction, etc), as there were simply not many of them. But later on the hard line Zionists started to arrive by the boat load, and started to undertake political street rallies about how they were going to be in control. Then the shit hit the fan. For example the Hebron riots were triggered by a Zionist March on the Western Wall, plus the murder of three Arabs who were passing by the Jewish quarter. That was then spun into a story that Jews were killing Arabs in Jerusalem, which then got a riot going in Hebron.

In short, no one side had a monopoly on being peaceful or violent. Both did it in degrees.

The whole march on the western wall and 3 dead Arabs is a libel. That was part of Husseini's propaganda to whip up planned riots. It never happened. Pierre van Paassen addresses this in Ch 9 of "Days of Our Years" (1939)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2bvobhiv8lqvh46/Days%20of%20our%20years%20-%20Van%20Paassen%2C%20Pierre%2C%201895-.epub

[Tailz]

Tailz wrote: So were the local non-Jewish inhabitants in the beginning, let us not forget the roots of the Haganah was the local security groups that Jewish and Arab farmers would form together to protect their farms from Bedouin raiders. The hard line Zionists didn't have much of an effect (as they were the main agitators, forbidding Jewish and Arab interaction, etc), as there were simply not many of them. But later on the hard line Zionists started to arrive by the boat load, and started to undertake political street rallies about how they were going to be in control. Then the shit hit the fan. For example the Hebron riots were triggered by a Zionist March on the Western Wall, plus the murder of three Arabs who were passing by the Jewish quarter. That was then spun into a story that Jews were killing Arabs in Jerusalem, which then got a riot going in Hebron.

In short, no one side had a monopoly on being peaceful or violent. Both did it in degrees.

The whole march on the western wall and 3 dead Arabs is a libel. That was part of Husseini's propaganda to whip up planned riots. It never happened. Pierre van Paassen addresses this in Ch 9 of "Days of Our Years" (1939)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2bvobhiv8lqvh46/Days%20of%20our%20years%20-%20Van%20Paassen%2C%20Pierre%2C%201895-.epub

There are a few citations on Wikipedia to the contrary, specifically: Simmering tensions. The key points that seem to have gotten up your nose:

• "In mid-August 1929, hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the Western Wall in Jerusalem shouting slogans such as The Wall is Ours and raising the Jewish national flag." See: One Palestine, Compete. Metropolitan Books. Pages: 314–327. by Israeli historian Tom Segev.
• "The first murders of the day took place when two or three Arabs passing by the Jewish Quarter of Mea Shearim were assassinated." See: La Question de Palestine: Une mission sacrée de civilisation. Page: 172. By Henry Laurens, Chair of History of the Contemporary Arab World at the Collège de France, Paris.

But you are right, those issues were used as Libel to enrage people to riot, which is the point I was making. Those deeds were exaggerated from the scale they were, to a vision that Jerusalem was being "taken over" by hostile Zionists who were also killing Jerusalem's Arabs - which obviously is a great exaggeration of what actually happened.

[dcomplex]

Segev and Laurens base their point on a BS article that Paassen fisked at the time

[Buzz62]

All this senseless pussy-footing around.
The presence and known intentions of the Zionists is what caused the conflict, thus created the 1948 refugees.!
End of story...and of excuses and subterfuge.

[wat0n]

All this senseless pussy-footing around.
The presence and known intentions of the Zionists is what caused the conflict, thus created the 1948 refugees.!
End of story...and of excuses and subterfuge.

Yes, wherever those damn Jews go, they create destruction and war, huh?

[danholo]

del

[Buzz62]

Yes, wherever those damn Jews go, they create destruction and war, huh?

I didn't say that.
However, your attempt to marginalize by putting unsavory words in my mouth, and to express your need for sympathy, is noted.

[wat0n]

I didn't say that.
However, your attempt to marginalize by putting unsavory words in my mouth, and to express your need for sympathy, is noted.

Marginalize?

I would say your "who cares, it's the Jews' fault!" is enough marginalization.

The rest is just excuses and subterfuge from our resident Holocaust denier.

[dcomplex]

Ah, he's a holocaust denier? That explains volumes

[Rich]

Had the Allies liquidated Nazi society, Germany would not exist (not to mention it would be a major crime). But they didn't, thus why Germany still exists. What the Allies did engage in was a re-education program that pointed out the negative aspects of Nazi indoctrination.

One of the aims of the bombing campaign was undoubtedly to exterminate a significant part of the German population. This clearly falls within the category of genocide. Just imagine if Assad did something like that. The West would be jumping up and down and screaming like a spitted pig. Of course genocide is still fine if we are supporting them as with Reagan Thatchers support for the Khmer Rouge and Saddam Hussein in the 1980's.

The whole de-Nazification programme was a pathetic attempt to support the vain but fragile sense of moral superiority of the average western citizen and in particular our politicians. Look at Nazi rule pre WWII, sure it was uncouth and thuggish but it was no worse than a whole number of regimes we supported throughout the cold war.

[dcomplex]

One of the aims of the bombing campaign was undoubtedly to exterminate a significant part of the German population. This clearly falls within the category of genocide. Just imagine if Assad did something like that. The West would be jumping up and down and screaming like a spitted pig. Of course genocide is still fine if we are supporting them as with Reagan Thatchers support for the J=Khmer Rouge and Saddam Hussein in the 1980's.

The whole de-Nazification programme was a pathetic attempt to support the vain but fragile sense of moral superiority of the average western citizen and in particular our politicians. Look at Nazi rule pre WWII, sure it was uncouth and thuggish but it was no worse than a whole number of regimes we supported throughout the cold war.

I am sorry but this is wrong. Nazi ideology is to Jews what Stalinism was to Kulaks, an ideology that ascribes to a group boundless malice and boundless power, which therefore must be destroyed. Hitler wanted to exterminate Jews becausw he believed that they were waging a shadow war on Germany to exterminate the German volk.

To compare this foundational ideological principle im Nazism to some overzealous allied officers who saw mass murder as an expedient is totally idiotic, and I am not about to let you get away with Nazi apologetics on my watch.

[Rich]

I am sorry but this is wrong. Nazi ideology is to Jews what Stalinism was to Kulaks, an ideology that ascribes to a group boundless malice and boundless power, which therefore must be destroyed. Hitler wanted to exterminate Jews becausw he believed that they were waging a shadow war on Germany to exterminate the German volk.

To compare this foundational ideological principle in Nazism to some overzealous allied officers who saw mass murder as an expedient is totally idiotic, and I am not about to let you get away with Nazi apologetics on my watch.

Just imagine if there had been a Soviet Republic set up in Texas in 1919 led by a Black men, you telling me that Americans would 't have been genociding Blacks. Jews had a prominent role in finance, entertainment. They had completely outsized presence in lawyers and doctors. Jesus! Blacks were murdered just for sitting on the wrong bus seat. Anti Black racism in America was a million times worse than anti Jewish racism in Germany.

The current world order has been created on innumerable, murders, countless acts of violence, rape, intimidation, torture, terror and rape. Westerners and Zionists seem to think that morality is some sort of musical chairs where they can stop the music when ever they want and expect everyone to respect the possession of their ill gotten games. But its worse than that because the West and Israel will still happily murder people like its going out of fashion. Their militaries can be getting up to all sort of atrocities, they can be funnelling arms to the Khmer Rouge, even seeking to murder their own innocent people like in the Lavon affair. but their politicians still wank off about human rights, laws of war and natural justice.

For Christ;'s sake give it a rest. And don't think I'm just blaming the politicians. The average western voter is nor more concerned with the human life of those seen as the other than the politicians, probably less so.

We must always remember that the Lavon affair was the time Israel got caught. How many times did Israel actually get away with it. How many times did Israel murder its own people so as they could blame the evil Arabs?

[dcomplex]

Just imagine if there had been a Soviet Republic set up in Texas in 1919 led by a Black men, you telling me that Americans would 't have been genociding Blacks. Jews had a prominent role in finance, entertainment. They had completely outsized presence in lawyers and doctors. Jesus! Blacks were murdered just for sitting on the wrong bus seat. Anti Black racism in America was a million times worse than anti Jewish racism in Germany.

The current world order has been created on innumerable, murders, countless acts of violence, rape, intimidation, torture, terror and rape. Westerners and Zionists seem to think that morality is some sort of musical chairs where they can stop the music when ever they want and expect everyone to respect the possession of their ill gotten games. But its worse than that because the West and Israel will still happily murder people like its going out of fashion. Their militaries can be getting up to all sort of atrocities, they can be funnelling arms to the Khmer Rouge, even seeking to murder their own innocent people like in the Lavon affair. but their politicians still wank off about human rights, laws of war and natural justice.

For Christ;'s sake give it a rest. And don't think I'm just blaming the politicians. The average western voter is nor more concerned with the human life of those seen as the other than the politicians, probably less so.

We must always remember that the Lavon affair was the time Israel got caught. How many times did Israel actually get away with it. How many times did Israel murder its own people so as they could blame the evil Arabs?

Talking about Israel really brings the nazis out of the woodwork. I will not deign to respond to this.

[Tailz]

Talking about Israel really brings the nazis out of the woodwork. I will not deign to respond to this.

Writes the guy championing ethnic cleansing. Pot, kettle, black.

[dcomplex]

Writes the guy championing ethnic cleansing. Pot, kettle, black.

Yes because the Jews were in a 100 year long armed ethnic conflict with Germany, right..

Explain to me how wanting to win a 100 year shooting war, resorting to a population transfer is the same as the holocaust.

If anything I am more like a Czech nationalist after WW2:

[url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–50)[/url]

The long-term goal of Nazi Germany was to Germanize or eradicate the population of Poland, Czechoslovakia and certain western parts of the Soviet Union. Nazi Germany's Generalplan Ost envisioned the eventual extermination of between 45 to 70 million "non-Germanizable" people from Central and Eastern Europe, but they lost the war before these aims could be achieved. The expulsions were part of the geopolitical and ethnic reconfiguration of postwar Europe; in part spoils of war, in part political changes following the war, and in part recompense for atrocities and ethnic cleansings that had occurred during the war.

If you replace "Nazi" with "Arab", and "non-germanizable" with "Jew" and fiddle with the numbers, you get Arafat's plans in 1974 revealed in his speech in Khartoum.

Collective punishment is the right and proper retribution for collective crime

[Tailz]

One of the aims of the bombing campaign was undoubtedly to exterminate a significant part of the German population.

ahhh, no. The objective of the bombing campaign of the Allies when it came to the population, was to de-house workers, because doing so causes a drop in production plus it strains the societies ability to re-house those people. Obviously this is a problem when you consider that people live in those houses that are going to be destroyed. Thus the objective was not to kill people, but to cause a drop in production. But the means towards that end causes massive casualties to the population.

The bombing campaign was not aimed at extermination the german population. Had it been aimed at such, the methods employed would have been very different. But we are talking about a method of waging way that is highly inaccurate, where you would be lucky if any bombs dropped within 5 miles of the target point.

This clearly falls within the category of genocide.

It is because of this that the bombing campaign has been such a highly charged topic, and if I remember, no campaign medals have been awarded for it. But it must be remembered, the objective of Bomber Command was not, as you wrote, to exterminate the german population, but to attack war industry. The blunt unguided destructive force of Second world War bombing meant doing so from the air was always going to be highly destructive to anyone and everyone. Lets not forget that when the Allies even attempted to use strategic bombing to support ground attacks, many a bomb load fell on Allied forces with the terrible consequences of friendly fire.

Yes because the Jews were in a 100 year long armed ethnic conflict with Germany, right..

Explain to me how wanting to win a 100 year shooting war, resorting to a population transfer is the same as the holocaust.

Ethnic cleansing is wrong, no matter how you try to make excuses for it.

If anything I am more like a Czech nationalist after WW2:

[url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–50)[/url]

So because someone else does something, that makes it ok for you to do it?

[dcomplex]

So because someone else does something, that makes it ok for you to do it?

This is how "state practice" works in international law, so yes.

When the dictators, if the dictators, are ready to make war upon us, they will not wait for an act of war on our part. They did not wait for Norway or Belgium or the Netherlands to commit an act of war.

Their only interest is in a new one-way international law, which lacks mutuality in its observance, and, therefore, becomes an instrument of oppression.

“The State of Israel has arisen. And, it has arisen only thus – through blood, through fire, with an outstretched hand and a mighty arm, with sufferings and with sacrifices. It could not have been otherwise…It has been difficult to create our state. But it will be still more difficult to keep it going. We are surrounded by enemies who long for our destruction. And that same oppressor, who has been defeated by us directly, is trying indirectly to make us surrender with the aid of mercenaries from the south, the north, and the east. Our one-day-old state is set up in the midst of the flames of battle….There must be no surrender, no favoritism. There must be reciprocity. Enmity for enmity, aid for aid, friendship for friendship.

[...]

Whoever does not recognize our natural right to our entire homeland, does not recognize our right to any part of it. And we shall never forego this natural right…We cannot buy peace from our enemies with appeasement. There is only one kind of “peace” that can be bought – the peace of the graveyard, the peace of Treblinka. Be brave of spirit and ready for more trials. We shall withstand them.

[Tailz]

This is how "state practice" works in international law, so yes.

So because the USA is boycotting the international criminal courts so that its own soldiers will not be tried by said court, all nations should boycott the ICC?

[dcomplex]

So because the USA is boycotting the international criminal courts so that its own soldiers will not be tried by said court, all nations should boycott the ICC?

Yes, because the ICC is a bad joke.

Was William Tecumseh Sherman a war criminal or a brilliant general who defeated the south's morale?

[pugsville]

Again you are saying there are no moral standards only strength and force. Is targeting civilians a crime which should be condemned or not?