[dcomplex]

No, I am saying that right to life supersedes right to land. Blame the Europeans, but how dare you tell us we should have let ourselves be killed for your insane definition of morality. A people being hunted down in varying degrees over time has every right to do what it must to SURVIVE.

Hobbes talks at length about this in Leviathan.

Yes, it was unfortunate for the Arabs that they found themselves deluged with Jews fleeing persecutions and mass murder, but keep in mind that they chose war over cooperation, not the Zionists. The Nakbah was military disaster, the failure of the intolerant Arabs to expel the Jews from Palestine.

Since you have admitted that the Jews had necessity on their side, you cannot judge the Zionists as free agents. All other rights are subordinate to life, and we chose life.

[pugsville]

So any group finding themselves subject to persecution have the right to take any action against any people (not the authors of their persecution) to achieve some safe haven. Who gets to to judge what actions are allowable and what persecution threat is enough? So the Zionists given the large scale persecution of jews just get a complete free hand? SO the moment that persecution ceased with the demise of the Nazi regime their actions were not justifiable?

A group wronged by another group have no right to address their plight by inflicting a further (if lesser) wrong on a completely different group.

The Palestinians are subject to more persecution now. Does their right to freedom from persecution override the right for a Israel to exist?

[dcomplex]

Absolutely. Any people subject to murderous persecution is 100% justified to take any necessary action to survive if there is no help given willingly. Full stop. That does not mean "by any means possible", but rather " by all means necessary". It is immoral to ask people to die quietly and avoid rocking the boat.

But anyway, the Palestine Arabs would have a case if they didn't have the obvious solution right in front of their faces, namely to stop committing or attempting to commit atrocities and terrorist attacks on Israel.

[pugsville]

But who gets to judge what is necessary ? It's a pretty vague concept. Like much of your "morality" it's very subjective and all sides in a conflict can claim actions were "necessary", "retaliation" or "deterrent". Who gets to judge that these things are allowable,

Perhaps if the Zionist had focused their energy of immigration bans in the west rather than palestine they would have been successful and many many more might have been saved?

Your Morality says it's perfectible justifiable to place bombs in markets and kill random civilians, that crimes can be carried out against innocents. The Idea of this "utility" argument of judging morality requires one to see all end results of actions and have some sort of scale measuring this suffering against that suffering. In the End these moralities are just flexible enough to justify anything.it is the Morality of Terrorists.

[dcomplex]

Necessity is hard to discern at the time, but so is morality. In hindsight, we can see that the Zionists were right in their predictions.

[pugsville]

How about treating others as you wish to be treated yourself.

The criminal act by one party does not entitle the victim to commit another crime on a third innocent party.

[dcomplex]

Sure it does when the act is done under coercion, like for instance a genocide. In a situation of coercion, you can always choose death, but the law does not find you guilty of acts committed under coercion.

[wat0n]

Yes in the abstract Zionism is a Jewish Nationalist movement. But as the Region concerned was NOT where they lived and in fact had a native population, their goal would mean dispossession of the native population.

Zionism required Entry by force into the region, sizing control and the suppression or removal of the native population. No different from any other foreign colonization.

By what right does any group of Foreigners impose their rule by force on the native population? How is Zionism different from any Colonization?

Really how can you not see the blinding obvious?

I wonder about the same, how can you not see the obvious that the Zionists clearly did not aim to oppress the Palestinians or else they would have never accepted the division of the land at the time?

The Zionist ideal could have been realized by dividing the land, as it was offered during the Mandate, and accepted by them - be it out of realism as they were the weaker side or idealism for reaching a peaceful solution, the fact is that most were able to realize that some sort of compromise was needed then.

[rmadison]

The, "We didn't start it! They did!", argument, is a very childish way to look at it. The people who have the ability to STOP it, are the Israelis. Will they? Not while they can continue to settle and take more land, they won't.

Childish? Why, because it exposes the abject intolerance of the arab muslims? Show us a single group with whom the arab muslims have tolerated sovereign rights in the mideast - I know plenty whom the arab muslims are oppressing and ethnically cleansing from there, yet you and the rest of the anti-Israel whiners never seem to mention them, so I'll do it for you: coptics, chaldeans, maneachans, maronites, eastern orthodox, assyrians, azeri, bahai, kurds, etc.

by entering info serious dialogue tom resolve the fundamental problems the cause the conflict.

"Serious" dialogue? As opposed to the fake dialogue from losers like arafat, who get 99% of what they want, yet refuse to make peace? Remind us how you negotiate with hamas, whose position is "we do not recognize the right of israel to exist, and we seek the worldwide death of all jews."

Why don't you offer a rational starting point for negotiations there

While there are some extremists who can never be appeased nor should be, the vast bulk of the Palestinian population would not support them.

What an amazing idea, so original...the "vast bulk" of lebanon does not support hezbollah, yet they manage to start wars with israel. The "vast bulk" of gaza despises hamas, yet they are still in control there starting 3 wars in 4 years with israel - just incredible. Tell us how effective the broad public's hatred of an oppressive dictatorship can be in reality.

http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/07/31/ ... rotesters/

Hamas suppressing wartime dissent, shooting to kill Palestinian protesters

[pugsville]

How was the partition any sort of comprise ? It was a maximal solution to partition. Why were they entitled to any sort of partition at all? Why do foreign immigrants have the right to force partition upon the native population.

The Early Zionist leadership was expansionist. And some now more latter was clearly there agenda,.

Israel started it''s fair share of wars.

I dont support Hamas they are terrorists who dont support civil or human rights.

[wat0n]

How was the partition any sort of comprise ? It was a maximal solution to partition. Why were they entitled to any sort of partition at all? Why do foreign immigrants have the right to force partition upon the native population.

The Early Zionist leadership was expansionist. And some now more latter was clearly there agenda,.

Israel started it''s fair share of wars.

I dont support Hamas they are terrorists who dont support civil or human rights.

In which way, exactly, is partitioning the land a maximalist position?

[redcarpet]

Remind us how you negotiate with hamas, whose position is "we do not recognize the right of israel to exist,

An entirely reasonable position, as there's no such thing as a nation-state having a 'right to exist'. It's totally made up.

[QatzelOk]

As long as my people are looked after bugger the rest.

This is the motto of every mafia.

Selective compassion (for one's own gang only) is not natural. It's a perversion of naturally occurring compassion for other creatures. Among gangs, compassion for outsiders is intentionally limited in order to make a large profit from hurting these same others.

Others are often describe in completely negative terms (terrorist, barbarian, savage) in order to eliminate any naturally occurring compassion, particularly during one of the mafia's hits.