[dcomplex]

Godstud, everything you wrote is a misrepresentation or an outright lie. First of all, there is nothing stopping an Arab Israeli from enrolling his kids in a Hebrew-language school. The Labor party's policy was to leave the Arab schools poorly funded so the Arabs would be forced to speak Hebrew . The Likud has reversed this policy and has undertaken to increase funding for Arabic-language and bilingual schools.

Next, there were in the past discriminatory policies regarding land leases to Arabs and underfunding of their districts, but this has much to do with the fact that the Arab parties are all anti-Zionist and therefore have no chance to appear in a coalition government.

Next, all marriage in Israel is religious, meaning that marriages can only be officiated by religious officials, who enforce bans on intermarriage. It is the same reason why Israel does not have gay marriage. However Israel recognizes foreign marriages, which is why many mixed couples marry in Cyprus.

Next, Arab citizens have full civil and political rights, and there are even affirmative action programs for Arabs enrolling in University.

Palestine Arabs, i.e. the Jordanians who stayed in Israel after 1967, have the status of aliens occupying unincorporated Israeli territory. They are not citizens, and we hope they will go back to Jordan because most of them are antisemites and terrorists (or at least terrorist supporters).

Israel is not apartheid in any way, even though a large fraction of our Arabs (maybe 20%) are a fifth column.

As I said, you are an antisemite posting polemical op-eds by demagogues to justify your prejudice.

[Wrath_014]

Yes.

At least you're not a hypocrite..I respect that.

Yes, I actually believe that. If fighting the Palestinians were to become more expensive for the Israelis (which is to say, higher risk for Israel), it would have one of two effects:

• 1. It would cause Israel to be more careful when attacking Palestine (which is to say, no longer just killing hundreds of people while yawning in boredom), because cost of doing so would be greater, or
• 2. It would lead to a full scale war and Palestine would be removed from the map.

Either way, it would mean that something has changed. If it ends up being the worst case scenario - option 2 - then that could be a pretext for European intervention to finally settle the problem and finally impose a peace agreement between the two sides by force 'in order to stop a genocide'. That would produce a two-state solution, probably.

1. It is expensive already. The Defence budget is by far larger than all others including not less serious matters such as wellfare and education. Trust me, the Israelis feel very well the war.

2. Had Israel intentions were to "kick" them out (You said full scale war inorder to remove them off the maps), the IDF wouldn't be so cautious harming inoccents. Plus, the IDF would use much cheaper weapons that create far more damage, because the "gloves are off".

3. It's best for the Europeans to stay out, because they would mostly do damage to both sides by rushing things up. The solution must come from both nations.

4. Again, if there was a genocide here, would the numbers be much higher. I invite you to take a look at Syria. Over 170,000 people were killed during a period of 3 years (Jul. 10, 2014), this is a genocide. For a comparsion, In all Israel - Arab wars including the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, the death toll is much much smaller.
Here is another quick example, look how Da'ash (ISIS for you) butchers the locals in Iraq.

5. Throwing terms in to the air that are strongly irrelevant to this conflict, not doing you any good (I'm talking in general) when trying to P.R the Palestinian side, it shows some sort of a desperate move to catch people's attentions.
It's like me shouting "Offside" in a basketball match, same same.

Oh come on, we are both hating here.

I hate who ever hates me, I don't generally hate all Arabs just becuase they are Arabs.

Speaking out against what Israel does, is not antisemitism.

You are right. But, some use the Anti Israeli "flag" to hide their true agenda......

Actually, this couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not particularly bothered either way about Israelis or Palestinians, and for what it's worth, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they all killed each other. It would save a great deal of trouble. What bothers me is the incessant claims that Israel is this beacon of civilisation and restraint, and that we in the West should somehow automatically root for them. Or, more ridiculous still, that we should commit money, soldiers and material to defend Israeli interests. When you respond to the murder of a couple of teenagers with air strikes, you don't get to make that claim. I don't think I'm alone in saying that a lot of people are getting sick of this pathetic saga.

First, the current round of attacking is not because the cowardly murder of Gilad Sha'er Z"L, Naftali Frenkel Z"L and Eyal Ifrach Z"L (HAY"D). It's because of :
1. Hamas is weak, and they though that if they could start a war with Israel and drag Israel to Gaza, they will regain their power amongest the Arab world.
2. The crisis between the Abu Mazen and Hamas, which Abu Mazen refuses to pay 40,000 Hamas's clercks in Gaza.
3. Hamas desperatly needs money because the Egyptians closed the tunnels from their side and Israel is fighting against those tunnels from its side too.
4. The money that the UN representative tried to smuggle to Gaza, was confiscated by Israeli forces (Hamas is pissed about that, the money was sent from Qatar).
5. They claim that the arrest of 59 Hamas former terrorists (or not former, as some of them did return their bad deeds), is a casus beli.
6. Let me be clear about that, the rocket fire started couple of months before. It was really in small numbers, but still they broke the cease fire.
For 3 or 4 days staright, Israel sent a message to Hamas that "Calm will be answerd with calm", but Hamas wanted to this esclation because it serves him well. Hamas is responsible for the "adventure" it took the entire Gaza strip.
7. Hamas was cornered, lost its friends in Syria (Took side against Assad) and Egypt (Since, Sisi is in power), Hamas wants to be a key player in the region.
This is how it tried to do so.


For another subject :
You guys claim that Israel is indiscriminately fires towards crowded population. Here is a fact that counters your arguement.

[youtube]PuL-OA84p54[/youtube]

Hamas's real intentions concerning its people

[youtube]EXxAdzSHyC4[/youtube]

The call of Hamas spokeperson to the Gazans to act as a human shield.

[youtube]UXZEzbT0H1s[/youtube]

Weapons caches inside neighberhoods.

[youtube]0e3xv7pI93M[/youtube]

[youtube]a5kosi4elOE[/youtube]

[youtube]CMO-_qEpgg0[/youtube]

Israel breaches international law at will, breaks Geneva Conventions, and is an apartheid state. Yes, that makes it a shithole, much like South Africa used to be...

Does the term 'apartheid' fit Israel? Of course it does

Here is another one of your attempts to demonize Israel. Like i've stated above, your attempts to throw terms that are irrelevant to this conflict as a desperate and populist move inorder to catch people attention (Like me shouting "offside" in a basketball match).
Had Israel was a true Aparthied state (not only for you pro Palestinians), do you really think the world wouldn't act? Why does the world still treats Israel as a democratic state?

Yes, by definition, Israel is the homeland for the Jews. Yet, as stated in the Israeli Declaration of Independence, minorites rights are guaranteed and protected.

Still, that doesn't stop you guys to thorw terms like Aparthied and Ethnic Cleansing, because you don't have to be held responsible for that (It's free to name call and to thrash). There is no system in Israel that even remotly closed to what was in South Africa (I even took those 7 rules that created the aparthied and debunked them one by one in realtion to Israel). Heck, you can ask the Israeli Arabs why they DON'T want to live in any Arab state, WHY they strongly oppsed a plan to move some villiages near the West Bank to Palestinian hands in any peace agreeement.
I even herd a saying "Like you Jews kissing the Mezuzah when you wake up, Israeli Arabs kiss the blue ID (Israeli citizenship)".

So please, cut the nonsese and stick with the reality. Yes, things aren't perfect and the Palestinians don't get their full rights, but that is a something that we need to change, but from that to aparthied is a long road. Heck, a freaking ocean.

Oh and, I inivite you to visit here.

[dcomplex]

South African Apartheid. “Apartheid,” the Dutch-Africaans term for separation, was the social order of the former South Africa. It meant exactly that. The Black majority of the nation and the so-called Colored were kept strictly apart in all aspects of life. White domination over the native population was mandatory. For instance: Non-Whites had to carry a “passbook.” Passbook infringement could lead to deportation to one of the Bantu “homelands.” Blacks and Coloreds were being kept from a wide array of jobs. Black-White sex was a serious jail-time criminal offense. Hospitals and ambulances were strictly separated. Whites enjoyed free education until graduation. Not so for Blacks, whose education was strictly limited by the oppressive “Bantu Education Act.”

What are the facts?

South African Apartheid. “Apartheid,” the Dutch-Africaans term for separation, was the social order of the former South Africa. It meant exactly that. The Black majority of the nation and the so-called Colored were kept strictly apart in all aspects of life. White domination over the native population was mandatory. For instance: Non-Whites had to carry a “passbook.” Passbook infringement could lead to deportation to one of the Bantu “homelands.” Blacks and Coloreds were being kept from a wide array of jobs. Black-White sex was a serious jail-time criminal offense. Hospitals and ambulances were strictly separated. Whites enjoyed free education until graduation. Not so for Blacks, whose education was strictly limited by the oppressive “Bantu Education Act.”

By law, no mixed sports were allowed. Park benches, swimming pools, libraries, and movies were strictly separated. Blacks were not allowed to purchase or imbibe alcoholic drinks – etc, etc, etc. And that is only a partial and small list of the many abusive impediments that non-Whites suffered under the South African apartheid regime.

Israeli Equality. To tar Israel with that kind of brush is utterly malicious. The exact opposite is the case. Not one single apartheid practice applies to Israel. Israel is by far the most racially mixed and tolerant nation in the entire Muslim Middle East. Arabs, who are about 20% of Israel’s population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens. The total equality of all Israelis is assured in Israel’s founding document. All non-Jews (which means primarily Muslim Arabs) have full voting rights. At present, eleven Arabs sit in Israel’s Knesset (parliament): Three Arabs are deputy speakers. Arabs are represented in Israel’s diplomatic service all over the world. Arab students may and do study in all Israeli universities. All children in Israel are entitled to subsidized education until graduation, without any restrictions based on color or religions. In short, Muslim Arabs and other non-Jews are allowed everything that Jews are allowed, everything that non-Whites were not allowed in apartheid South Africa.

But, yes, there is one difference: Jewish Israeli men are obligated to a three-year stint in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and serve in the reserve until they are 50 years old. For Arabs, this service is voluntary. Except for the Druze, hardly any Arabs volunteer to serve in the armed forces.

Israel has granted permanent residence and full citizen rights to a large number of legal and illegal foreign workers and their families – from the Philippines, Eritrea, Colombia, Nigeria, and from many other countries. Nobody, of course, is forced or requested to convert to Judaism as a condition of their being allowed to stay. Israel has accepted a shipload of Vietnamese refugees who had sought asylum. No Arab country has accepted a single one of those refugees. Israel has brought in about 70,000 black Ethiopian Jews, who have become fully integrated citizens of Israel. Everything that Blacks were not allowed to do in South Africa is totally open to non-Jews in Israel.

The “Apartheid Wall.” Another reason for which left-wing zealots and anti-Semites like to refer to Israel as the “apartheid state” is the fence between Israel proper and the territories. This fence (which is indeed a fence and not a wall over most of its length) was constructed at great cost in order to prevent the suicidal attacks that had killed hundreds of Israelis and grievously wounded thousands more. Thankfully, this “wall” is exceptionally successful and has totally prevented any such attacks since its completion. There is little question that this separation fence is the cause of inconvenience for some of the Arab population. But it is an annoyance that they have brought about themselves. And, of course, there are walls for protection all over the world. The Chinese invented it hundreds of years ago. Our own country has a long, high, very sophisticated wall across our border with Mexico. It is a wall, not to keep out criminals who want to kill Americans, but people who want to come here only in search of a better life. To call the Israeli fence an “apartheid wall” is an expression of ignorance and of malevolence.

Israel is a light unto the nations. It has, regrettably, many enemies – all or most of the world’s Muslim nations and left-wing ideologues who mostly hate the United States and who consider Israel to be America’s cat’s-paw in the Middle East. The reality, of course, is that Israel is the exact opposite of an apartheid state. It is a country in which all residents, all citizens, enjoy the same full rights. All other countries in the Middle East are benighted theocracies, ruthless tyrannies, or mostly both. To call Israel an apartheid state is an expression of ignorance, anti-Semitism, and malice.

http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_121.html

[ArtAllm]

Israel breaches international law at will, breaks Geneva Conventions, and is an apartheid state. Yes, that makes it a shithole, much like South Africa used to be...

Does the term 'apartheid' fit Israel? Of course it does.
The Jewish state (for so it identifies itself, after all) maintains a system of formal and informal housing segregation both in Israel and in the occupied territories. It's obvious, of course, that Jewish settlements in the West Bank aren't exactly bursting with Palestinians. In Israel itself, however, hundreds of communities have been established for Jewish residents on land expropriated from Palestinians, in which segregation is maintained, for example, by admissions committees empowered to use ethnic criteria long since banned in the United States, or by the inability of Palestinian citizens to access land held exclusively for the Jewish people by the state-sanctioned Jewish National Fund.

Jewish residents of the occupied territories enjoy various rights and privileges denied to their Palestinian neighbors. While the former enjoy the protections of Israeli civil law, the latter are subject to the harsh provisions of military law. So, while their Jewish neighbors come and go freely, West Bank Palestinians are subject to arbitrary arrest and detention, and to the denial of freedom of movement; they are frequently barred from access to educational or healthcare facilities, Christian and Muslim sites for religious worship, and so on.

Meanwhile, Palestinian citizens of Israel must contend with about 50 state laws and bills that, according to the Palestinian-Israeli human rights organization Adalah, either privilege Jews or directly discriminate against the Palestinian minority. One of the key components of Israel's nationality law, the Law of Return, for example, applies to Jews only, and excludes Palestinians, including Palestinians born in what is now the state of Israel. While Jewish citizens can move back and forth without interdiction, Israeli law expressly bars Palestinian citizens from bringing spouses from the occupied territories to live with them in Israel.

The educational systems for the two populations in Israel (not to mention the occupied territories) are kept largely separate and unequal. While overcrowded Palestinian schools in Israel crumble, Jewish students are given access to more resources and curricular options.

It is not legally possible in Israel for a Jewish citizen to marry a non-Jewish citizen. And a web of laws, regulations and military orders governing what kind of people can live in which particular spaces makes mixed marriages within the occupied territories, or across the pre-1967 border between Israel and the occupied territories, all but impossible.

And so it goes in all domains of life, from birth to death: a systematic, vigilantly policed separation of the two populations and utter contempt for the principle of equality. One group — stripped of property and rights, expelled, humiliated, punished, demolished, imprisoned and at times driven to the edge of starvation (down to the meticulously calculated last calorie) — has withered. The other group — its freedom of movement and of development not merely unrestricted but actively encouraged — has flourished, and its religious and cultural symbols adorn the regalia of the state and are emblazoned on the state flag.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html

Also, dcomplex, I think it's more ANTI-ZIONISM that you are seeing, moreso than people against Jews. That's something different.

...

Why are you making claims and comparing Israel to peoples and places that have nothing in common with Israel? You should stop doing the, "But look at ______! They treated someone worse than we are treating Palestinians!" argument. It only undermines your position.

Great Smell of Brut... I am not talking to you. Why don't you trying arguing a point, instead of attacking people.

Very good summary!

And why do the Zionists get away with their crimes?

Because of the so-called "Holocaust Industry"!

They imprison people in many western countries because some people dare to say that they do not believe in the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz and in the existence of an order to exterminate all Jews.

But on the other hand Zionists can deny or justify the Nakba, the Deir Yassin massacre, and the collective punishment of German and Japanese civilians in WWII.

There are obvious double standards, that are enshrined in laws of many countries, that claim that they respect the freedom of speech and regard all people as equals.

If you only have the freedom to deny or justify the crimes of Zionists and the Allies in WWII, then this is not true freedom of speech!

[dcomplex]

LOL, holocaust deniers again.

[Great Smell of Brut]

Israel did not exist in WW@ why are you trying to hold them reponsible for attacks on German or Japanese civilians?

[ArtAllm]

Because he is an antisemitw just like godstud. Birds of a feather and all...

I am an anti-Zionist and a pro-Semite, because I condemn the crimes of Zionists (who are wannabe "Semites", speak migrants who do not speak any Semitic language as their inherited native language and who are descendants of various non-Semitic pagans who converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages, like Khazars, Slavs or Berber tribes from North Africa) against the Semitic population of Palestine who are the true descendants of Hebrews.

Zionists are the true "Semite-Haters", because they hate the native Semitic population of Palestine!

[dcomplex]

*Removed* I am not going to bother debunking what you've said because you've made up your mind, evidence be damned.

[Not only are ad homs generally lousy arguments, the line between them and Rule 2 violations are often blurry. Instead of pushing boundaries, trying steering clear of them. - G.]

[Great Smell of Brut]

especially the nonsense abouews being converts from berbers and Khazars.

[danholo]

I wouldn't put Godstud and ArtAllm on the same page, ever.

[Maas]

Israeli Equality. To tar Israel with that kind of brush is utterly malicious. The exact opposite is the case. Not one single apartheid practice applies to Israel.

That is totally incorrect.
The right to return only applies to Jews. An Arab, when it got ethnically cleansed by Jews, is by law not able to return. By law the Jewish state can than steal his property. The Jewish state -where there is no room for Arabs... it's in the name- with those apartheid laws managed to thieve the property of 100.000's of people.

The Arabs that were not ethnically cleansed are discriminated at every turn. The amount of money spend on the education of an Arab child is 1/2 of what a Jewish child recieves. And because of that, the Jewish state turns their Arabs in to 2nd class citizens from the start.


And I suspect you're completely aware of that as well, and got your excuses ready with lengthy and trolling monologues explaining that these apartheid laws are justified.

[dcomplex]

See, Israel ethnically cleansed nobody. It won a civil war that the Arabs started. They have no right to return because they lost the war that they started and supported. If the Arabs had won, do you think they would give Jews a right to return?

Immigration policy does not need to import sworn enemies who tried to prevent the birth of the state.

[ArtAllm]

Israel did not exist in WW@ why are you trying to hold them reponsible for attacks on German or Japanese civilians?

Please read my posts more attentively!
I was not talking about Israelis, I was talking about Zionists!

Even such "decent" Zionists, like Albert Einstein (who was not an Israeli), were advocating the collective punishment of ALL Germans as a group (though group punishment is prohibited by international law).

If somebody is committing group punishment, then he is committing a crime!

If somebody is calling for a collective punishment, then he is instigating to a crime.

Why do so many Zionist racists get away with their instigation to crimes?

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.603468

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.602675

[Godstud]

I have no discrimination, or hatred against Jews. I hate Israel, as a nation, because of what it does. That's all.

Calling everyone a jew-hater, antisemite, etc., just because they disagree with you, isn't a valid way to support your arguments.

Present facts instead of attacking the person you disagree with, otherwise you look a little silly.

[Maas]

See, Israel ethnically cleansed nobody.

They ethnically cleansed something like 700.000 men, women, children, and elderly.. based on their race. It's the racists who make their race collectively responsible and not what some specific people did. And you parrot that dogma. Also to claim that winning a war is what justifies the Jewish state to install apartheid laws,... is still installing apartheid laws.


Mind you. With your line of thinking. If ever Iran wins a war with Israel. Than you would agree Iran has the right the push all the Jews in the sea and take over their property... BY LAW. And you would not consider that its racist / would not consider that as applying apartheid. And that is very disturbed.

[ArtAllm]

No, you are an antisemite becausw you are a Jew-hater. I am not going to bother debunking what you've said because you've made up your mind, evidence be damned.

I believe that you are a "Goyim-Hater", because you seem to hate people who expose the crimes of Zionists against the native Semites of Palestine.

I will not bother to debunk your opinion, but I am sure that you yourself hate some prominent Jews (like Shlomo Sand or Gilad Atzmon, to mention only two of Jews I do respect).

There are a lot of Jews that share my opinion, and Zionists hate these Jews.

If I was a Jew-Hater, then I would hate all Jews without any exception, just because these Jews are of a supposed "Semitic" origin.

But that is not the case, I do not hate ALL Jews, I just hate SOME Jews who call themselves "Zionists", who claim to be "returning Semites" and who are Goyim-Haters who hate the native Semites of Palestine.

BTW, if you you hate some Jews, like the two I have mentioned, then you can also be called a "Jew-Hater".

Or do you believe that Zionists are entitled to decide what Jews and Semites can be hated?

[Great Smell of Brut]

I have no discrimination, or hatred against Jews. I hate Israel, as a nation, because of what it does. That's all.

Calling everyone a jew-hater, antisemite, etc., just because they disagree with you, isn't a valid way to support your arguments.

Present facts instead of attacking the person you disagree with, otherwise you look a little silly.

You look silly because you don;t actually understand basic logic or terms like hypothetical, straman or fallacy. You think you look clever by throwing them aorund whereas you just look like a fool.

You are an anti semite because you single them out when their neighborurs are worse. However IT IS possible that you are so ignprant of the other ARab states that you don;t actually realise what murdrers they are.

Mass on the other hand doesnt realise that there are plenty of Arab Jews that his Co-religionists forced out of Muslim countries.


If the stupid Palestinians converted to Judaism then they could become Israeli citizens. After ll their ancestor converted to islam for no better reasons.

[Heisenberg]

If the stupid Palestinians converted to Judaism then they could become Israeli citizens. After ll their ancestor converted to islam for no better reasons.

And if the "stupid Israelis" converted to Islam, Hamas wouldn't want to wipe them out. I suspect you wouldn't advocate this, though.

[Great Smell of Brut]

Its not the Israelis who are whining. Its the Muslims. The tony nation of Israel is triumphant. If I were a Jew I would be truly proud.

[dcomplex]

Maas, it did not do any such thing. The official start of hostilities was immediately after the Arabs rejected a partition and began trying to kill Jews. Most Arabs were not expelled but in fact fled their homes in the face of the advancing Jewish army. There were several cases of expulsion where Arabs occupied strategically important terrain, and the Jews had to remove them because they were a hostile enemy population (often hiding irregulars). The Arabs should have considered that it is wrong to murder and mutilate Jews for any reason, but unfortunately, the Jews had to fight.

The Druze and Bedouin who joined the Jewish side are now citizens. The Jews had nothing against those Arabs who were not trying to kill Jews or supporting those killing Jews