[danholo]

I find it inconceivable that the invading Jews have been granted a legitimate right to settle here, and create their own state of all things!

[Nets]

I don't think he's capable of understanding the point of the thread. It's a good exercise in identifying those who are incapable of considering other points of view. I would expect the same from Qatz or sploop!

That's a very good point, it truly does differentiate between those who can critically analyze the situation and those who are motivated purely by emotion and hatred.

Since I generally have far more of a problem with Israeli Arabs than Palestinians in the territories, here goes:

I can't live in a "Jewish State". I am not Jewish. I can't sing a national anthem that takes about my nefesh yehudi. I can't salute a flag with a Star of David on it*. I can't join an army that kills my cousins. I can't be made to feel like a squatter in my own land. "Israeli" and "Arab" are mutually exclusive terms.

*Just a note, I think the flag thing which is brought up is kind of stupid, considering all the Muslim and Christian countries with crescents and crosses on their flags, respectively. I do agree with the Israeli Arabs on the national anthem though, there should be an official alternate so that Arabs can sing "nefesh yisraeli" instead of "nefesh yehudi".

I support Israel pretty steadfastly, but there is no denying the Palestinians do have legitimate grievances.

[Dave]

The flag thing isn't stupid at all, Nets. Cross flags are the product of Christian nations, crescent flags of Mohammedan ones.

[Nets]

I'm not saying I'm stupid, I'm saying its hypocrtical when Scandinavians for example say the Israeli flag shouldn't have a Jewish star on it when they have crosses on theirs.

[Anikdote]

The Zionist nation is a widespread organization that uses it's connections to the Western world to disseminate propaganda to the great unwashed. They've stolen land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians and are traitors to the Prophet, because of these two atrocities they're existence cannot and should not be tolerated.

[Dave]

I'm not saying I'm stupid, I'm saying its hypocrtical when Scandinavians for example say the Israeli flag shouldn't have a Jewish star on it when they have crosses on theirs.

Why? Disagreeing with the basis of a Jewish state doesn't mean you have to agree that a Christian one should not exist. I do not believe that a Jewish state has a "right" to exist, but I favor setting up an overtly Christian state in the Levant.

[Arthur2sheds_Jackson]

Israel is 100% correct to respond with overwhelming force at the slightest possible sign of aggression.

After millenia of persecution the jewish homeland is not prepared to accept the slightest intention of any harm coming to its people.

Enough is enough.


How's that?

[MVictorP]

Israel is 100% correct to respond with overwhelming force at the slightest possible sign of aggression.

After millenia of persecution the jewish homeland is not prepared to accept the slightest intention of any harm coming to its people.

Enough is enough.

How's that?

That is... further than where I'm ready to go.

[kyleb]

Israel should drive out all the Arabs between the Jordan and the sea, and take more of Lebanon and Syria as well as parts of Jordan and Egypt. Then Palestinians should acquire WMDs to wipe out Israel, at which point Israeli subs should nuke the every nation in the Middle East, and lob a few at Europe and the US just out of spite.

[sploop!]

I don't think he's capable of understanding the point of the thread. It's a good exercise in identifying those who are incapable of considering other points of view. I would expect the same from Qatz or sploop!

This stoopidity almost drove me to respond to this thread. I'm glad I didn't, because it would have been angry and non-productive. Suffice to say, I think Paradigm is not really in any position to go casting stones in his glass house.

I could have just ignored the post and stayed silent, but that seems a bit of a cheat. So I'll explain why I am not going to play, instead.

In all honesty, I can't. Coming here over the past couple of years, and getting involved in the Palestine/Israel debate has pushed me further and further away from the point where I want to defend Israel, even as part of an exercise to promote understanding. I honestly cannot find a single word to say in defence of Israel. For me, defending Israel is akin to defending Apartheid or racism. I can't do it and, excuse me, but I won't do it. Obviously, this makes it difficult for me to defend myself from the faux-intellectualism of Paradigm, but there it is. Take it or leave it.

[ThereBeDragons]

What it does actually mean is that there's no point in your debating the issue since you apparently have zero common ground with those you disagree with. You're not alone; there's a multitude of posters in here either unwilling or incapable of responding according to the intentions of the OP. The only thing it really means is that debate with those who fall in the above category is likely to be supremely unproductive.

[Anikdote]

While Paradigm may:

go casting stones in his glass house.

His analysis was flawless.

[sploop!]

^ Actually, it totally wasn't. Unless he's a mind-reader.

[Sephardi]

Try #3: Maybe we should all kill ourselves for our Allah. That way we can achieve heaven, and they wont have to give any land up, it make sense!

I fail.

[MVictorP]

In all honesty, I can't. Coming here over the past couple of years, and getting involved in the Palestine/Israel debate has pushed me further and further away from the point where I want to defend Israel, even as part of an exercise to promote understanding. I honestly cannot find a single word to say in defence of Israel. For me, defending Israel is akin to defending Apartheid or racism. I can't do it and, excuse me, but I won't do it. Obviously, this makes it difficult for me to defend myself from the faux-intellectualism of Paradigm, but there it is. Take it or leave it.

I cannot agree with you, my ideological friend. Here is why.

First, this is an exercise of good will, and good will is what is going to stop this conflict in any positive way. Furthermore, good will is such a rare ressource, you should not ignore it like that.

Second; Apart from their exutory side, these boards have a purpose; to let the other side consider your point, probably so they can think about it, something many of us can't do easily given our immediate entourage. You are not convincing anybody with vinegar; try honey.

Third; Israel has got to do something good. It is a proof of intellectual honesty to recognize it. Once you do, you may find out that you are not that far apart from your edversary of the day.

[sploop!]

Third; Israel has got to do something good.

Come on, MVictor, honest as you are, surely even you don't believe this?

[kyleb]

I have no doubt Victor understands that Israel has done much good, and that focusing on such goods is how so many ignore and/or excuse the atrocities Israel continues to perpetuate. Surely you know know the same, despite your aversion to admitting as much?

[sploop!]

Israel has done much good for Israelis. It's done damn all for anyone else in the Middle East. This is true, and cannot be denied. Sadly. However, in the interests of understanding, I believe I do have something I can say and fully believe...

The Israelis themselves, as people, most of them, are probably OK - no different from the rest of us.

[Sephardi]

It's done damn all for anyone else in the Middle East.

Because those people in the Middle East want to kill them. What is Israel supposed to say? "Alright, we don't want to hurt you or hurt your feelings in any way, so we'll give you all of the land back and fuck off". Is this what you want them to say? You must know that most Arabs would want to have all of the land of Israel back. I wonder how they would feel if a Jewish "Caliphate" took over Mecca and Medina, and then when Muslims wanted a state there, we would split half of Mecca and keep Medina to ourselves.

[MVictorP]

Come on, MVictor, honest as you are, surely even you don't believe this?

They're damn efficient. You've got to give them that. I wish my country was as expertly runned.

If they wanted peace, we'll have it tomorrow (well, 30 years, more like it... but that is another can of worms). They just have to find the incentive to.

Because those people in the Middle East want to kill them.

As much as you yourself would want to "kill" the robbers that are still in your house.

(Hey, it's cool being nice, but old habits do die hard.)