[Maas]

no, they can't refuse.

Of course they can. At worst you get thrown in jail for 2 or 3 years for not joining in on making warcrimes.

You quoted out of context before blabbering about the Geneva Conventions

you responded to the IDF committing warcrimes vs Palestinians / making sure that what Jews stole from those 100.000's of Palestinians are not returned / making sure the right of return is not applied for 100.000's of Palestinians because of their race. That is the context where you responded to that you don't see anything unethical. Ethnic cleansing is unethical. Stealing is unethical. Raping human rights is unethical. Rather stereotypical you fail on universally accepted norms when Jews did that to Palestinians... since this is the foundation of Israels apartheid state. The main difference with South Africa is that at least them white people didn't ethnically cleanse and stole on such a large scale during the apartheid era.

[Buzz62]

Indeed, what about them ?
They lived under Jordanian occupation from 1948 till 1967. Why did nobody complain during that period ?
Only now that Israel has temporarily occupied the West Bank (after Jordan attacked Israel) are people like you howling in the wind ? Let me think about that for a while.... why would that be ?

Probably because, unlike you, most of us have a conscience.

By the way, they could have been living in an independent Palestinian state if Arafat would have accepted the Camp David accords. But no, the Arabs would not compromise on anything.

Gee...who does that sound like?

A full right of return would be the end of Israel as a Jewish Homeland. That is the only objective of the PLO, Hamas, and all the other lovable people living in the area and the antisemites everywhere else..

Don't ya just love how they've hijacked the term "Semite" completely ignoring the fact that the Palestinians are Semites as well.
Rather arrogant if you ask me...

no, they can't refuse. Israel needs to be protected from the people who would like to destroy it.
So it is very relevant. The IDF is an ethical army but deadly for anyone attacking Israel.

OK first of all...those people who would destroy Israel...are the same people who's lives were destroyed BY ISRAEL.
What goes around...comes around...eventually.
Here's you "ethical" army...

You quoted out of context before blabbering about the Geneva Conventions. Always defending the Muslim Arabs, Maas, why is that ? I am starting to have a good idea why you are singing that same tune since years here.

Ya! Me Too!
The tune goes something like this:
NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO ACT AS ISRAEL HAS!!!
It's a tune the whole world sings now Ter.
Can you hear them?
I bet you can....
Keep listening Ter...it gets louder and louder...

[redcarpet]

Rejection of the Camp David 'accords' was rational;
because it wasn't the two state solution and Israel's
own foreign minister supported that rejection.

[LehmanB]

Abu Mazen BTW wants the current situation to remain. where he has an autonomy, its a comfterble situation to both sides. A change might risk him. And will be very unstable to Israel. Perople often focus of how Palestine can't be a valid state if won't get enough land and resources, but forget same effect could be on Israel too. And unstable Israel means a conflict with its predetors.

[redcarpet]

But no, the Arabs would not compromise on anything.

ALL the concessions at Camp David in 2000 were made by Arafat.
Barak made ZERO and demanded his own Versailles treaty of victor's justice

[LehmanB]

All the resources are Israelis. The only compramise is how many resources Israel shall give.

How can Arabs compramise about something they don't have? About resources of the other? They don't compramise about anything they have, they debating of how much they shall occupy from Israel.

In Campe David Israel offered 90% of the WB. So its Israeli compramising. Arafat have had 0. No resources. So what is he to compramise about?

I frankly don't udnerstand Israel on this point. Giving 85% of its total territory for nothing. All the debates ever with Israel is on Israeli resources. This is the only discussion. Its not a negotiation between two, its of how much flesh they will bite.

Arafat BTW got a surprising amount of land and bombed the meeting- he in fact prepared to a war since 1999, and launched it soon after Campe David meeting- but the point is Arafat didn't want to stand on his feet exactly as Abu Mazen don't want.

[redcarpet]

In Campe David Israel offered 90% of the WB. So its Israeli
compramising. Arafat have had 0. No resources. So what is he to
compramise about?

None of the West Bank is part of Israel. Supposedly the biggest
'concession' by Barak was over East Jerusalem, well, that's under
Israeli military occupation. To 'offer' Arafat say 1/3rd of EJ is NOT
a concession, or 'offer' 10% of the WB is NOT a 'concession'.

All of the concessions were made by Arafat.

The closest both sides got to the two-state consensus was at Taba
in January of 2000 and Barak walked out.

[LehmanB]

In case you fell asleep in 1967: The WB belongs to Israel now. Israel has the resources. Arafat have nothing. The debate is of how much resources should Israel deliver.

The Arabs don't offer anything to Israel. All the negotiations between Israelis and Arabs are merely on Israli resources where Arabs offer nothing but words. So here is the formula of all the peace talks (Egypt till Palestinians) : Israel gives resources, the debate is of how much resources the Arabs will will to take from the Israelis, Arabs give none resources they have (they have much more reources than Israel have BTW).

For instance the minor peace agreement between Israel and Jordan in 1994:
Israel will give to Jordan amount of land in the size of Gaza Strip.
America will delete all the extrenal debt of Jordan (few billions dinars).
Israel will give to Jordan 50 million Cubes of water.

Jordan gives: nothing.

Both sides get: formal relations. In the case of Jordan it allowed also practical cooporation between minestries, and economic freedom.

Anyway the formula is: Israel gives its resources. You may prefer these resources to be Arabic but it doesn't change the fact hese are Israeli resources.

I think that Israel put too much energy on survivng their direct wars, and forgot the Arab mastery of power in other field. Arabs have had constantly one target: get more resources. While Israel seeked also good relations yada yada. I think that Israel shold change this shameful occuasion.

Again, only compramising Arabs might do is on how much they will bite from Israel. And Palestinians, including Arafat, made 0% compramising, and in fact went to wars anytime it was close to a deal. Arafat launched a war he prepared 2 years ahead. And he got it- the conflict still goes on, and all questions are still open. He didn't predict that also Jews will spread, since usualy Arabs multiply faster so he thought time will be his friend, but hey, orthodox Jews multiply much faster than Arabs, so it kinda opened all forecasts. Well, if the Palestinians wants to occupy my holy land they should return to the negotiation table, and descuss how much land should I deliver to them.

[oscar]

"The WB belongs to Israel now...."

And with it, the responsibility of incorporating the WB inhabitants into a "Greater Israel". Israel is now (and has effectively been for decades) an Apartheid State denying the WB muslim Semites a say in the governance of "Greater Israel" or even providing a semblance of the same basic human rights as it provides for "full-fledged" Israeli citizens.

When Israel started building the "illegal settlements" in the WB, they started taking on the obligations of "incorporating" the WB inhabitants within it's State. It's a fallacy to label Israel a "democratic state" when it denies a large segment of it's population a say in it's governance.

[LehmanB]

Well our democracy survived very well despite Arabic population that doesn't have democratic heritage, and the challange of regions under a military supervision; which are now under autonomic mannagement and supervised by our supreme court and military in foreign policy issues.

The problem now is not what you think - the souprime court mannagement- but rather their own regimes which are rather faschists are dark (Hamas, PLO). But since this is less now at the responssibility of Israel, that doesn't interrupts our democracy again.

I also don't think Israel will launch Apartheid policy since things will deteriorate much faster and before the need to change the system. Because Arabs are now influenceing the system- we feel their negative effect much sooner, so there is no bubble that will explode like in south Africa, unless the WB will be annexed or something. Hence I think they should be expelled or remained in an autonomy. And again, democracy doesn't mean pacifism, actualy pacifism is what will ruin our democracy.

Anyway, all negotiations are on Israeli resources, what it gave, what it should give, so its funny for me to hear how tough is for them to compromise. How Israel "misses" chances. How Netanyahu refuses to talks to give more of his own lands - what do you want from him?

Now Abu Mazen demanded releasing prisioners as a condition to revive the talks on taking more Israeli lands. He puts conditions to Israel before negotiating on the resources he will take from Israel, got the absurd??
(The extra resources are lands without Arabs since Arabs are all under autonomy or citizens in proper Israel. )

[oscar]

What is the status of the WB ? Is the WB part of Israel or not ? If it is not, when will the Israelis depart ? If it is, when will the WB Muslim Semites be given the citizenship rights they deserve ?

The current policy: gradual encroachment of jewish "illegal settlements" in the WB suggests an unofficial policy gradually evicting Palestinians from "choice" land in the WB while denying the Palestinians the same rights granted to Israeli Arabs in the more "settled" parts of Israel. It IS a de facto "Apartheid" state. The so-called Palestinian National Authority is a fiction which answers to the beck and call of their occupiers; they can do nothing without the approval of the Israeli government, including protests against Jewish settlers taking their land, reception of foreign aid, etc.

Abbas should be pushing for citizenship rights for the West bank muslim Semites because it becomes clearer with each new jewish development in the West Bank that Israel has very little interest in a two State solution.

[LehmanB]

You have to differ nationalistic policy and Apartheid. It seems that in your eyes apartheid is good, but nationalistic policy of Jews is not.

[Maas]

The WB belongs to Israel now.

No part of the WB, including easy Jerusalem, is recognized as part of Israel by any country on this planet besides Israel. Israel got nothing to give in the eyes of the world, since its not theirs. It really is that simple. That you and your fellow hate mongering zionists for your Jew state disagree, is an absolutely irrelevant opinion.

[LehmanB]

You just said this: you don't recognise reality. Well, nothing to add.

[Maas]

You just said this: you don't recognise reality.

The reality is that in the UN, time and time again = the entire world says what is Israel and what is not.
And the West Bank, including East Jerusalem is not part of it. So they can't give it. It's as simple as that.
They can only end their occupation, and return what Jews from Palestinians stole obviously based on race

Abbas should be pushing for citizenship rights for the West bank muslim Semites because it becomes clearer with each new jewish development in the West Bank that Israel has very little interest in a two State solution.

Abbas was born in what is now Israel. No doubt he is a victim of Jews who ethnic cleansed and stole his property, and has the right to return that the nation of the Jew trashes only because he isn't a Jew. And that is apartheid done by the Israeli government, voted in by Jewish Israeli to make it so, and executed by the IDF that as good as the entire Jewish population takes part of.

[Tailz]

Tailz wrote: Jewish people live peacefully inside Arab cities, just as there are Arabs who live peacefully inside Jewish cities inside Israel.

Wrong.

Wrong? So there are Jews who do not live peacefully in Iran, in Egypt, in other Arab countries? While your also saying that the Arabs who live in Israel, are not generally peaceful?

There are Jews who live in Arab majority cities, and do so in prosperity - just as there are Arabs who live in Israel in the same condition. Heck there is a village in Israel itself that is promoted for the harmonious coexistence of its Arab and Jewish population!!

But if you believe in that, that explains your talks about disarming Israel, deleting its ethnic decleration, and belief this will be the case of Nelson Mandela. I think that you rather sound more and more non-realistic.

Are you daft? I didn't write about disarming Israel, or deleting and ethnic declaration. What I did write about was fostering equality.

Why are you so scared of equality between Jews and Arabs?

Maas wrote: making sure that what Jews stole from those 100.000's of Palestinians are not returned

Wrong again ! There are by this time millions upon millions of Arabs that claim to be Palestinians. They thought that having ten to seventeen children each whilst the UNWRA and the EU feeds them will create a demographic weapon. Tell you what, it didn't work and it will not work. They are now in the fourth generation and still no dice. The Arabs wanted it all and got nothing. Those Jews will not move. That time has past. Too bad for people who do not like the Jews and/or the Israelis. The Jews will not be slaughtered again. Never again.

The threat posed by the Palestinians is not comparable to that of the Holocaust was to the Jewish people, so why are you invoking the holocaust as a means to justify oppressing the Palestinians as if they posed a holocaust threat?

Really now Ter? you are so much better than that to stoop to such a crutch. I don't think anyone here is promoting the idea of wiping out the Jews from Israel, at least I am not and I don't think Maas is ether. So why do you fall back on the "Never again." crutch that the holocaust has become to justify Israel's actions in relation to the occupation?

All your doing is creating a narrative where the Palestinians pay for the crime of the holocaust.

[Ter]

The threat posed by the Palestinians is not comparable to that of the Holocaust was to the Jewish people, so why are you invoking the holocaust as a means to justify oppressing the Palestinians as if they posed a holocaust threat?

I wasn't. The existence of Israel as a Jewish Homeland is a guarantee that there will be no repeat of the Holocaust by anyone. I was not referring to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians. I know they do not pose an existential threat to Israel.

[LehmanB]

Are you daft?

Well if you don't understand that your calling for my disarming me is practically calling for a destruction of Israel, that we have a serious gap. I even wrote that you live in a pipe dream, naming you are not rationaly evil. And you still insist not to understand my point of view.

In previous talks you insisted ethnic states are wrong, and Israel shall receed its ethnical entity.

Now I think that we have a problem with debating if you insist you don't write anything, my interpretation have no grip. It makes you in a position of holding the rope in both edges and it makes progress impossible.

Now Jews can't live peacefuly in arab regions here in Israel, where Arabs can live peacefuly in Jewish regions. And I mean both safety and crime (theivery). About greater question- Arab countries expelled million Jews out, so only few families left in Egypt or Iraq or Syia, and they suffer abusements in all Arab and Islamic countries. In Iran they live abit better, though under restrictions that are similiar to restrictions on Jews that were existed in Europe in the mediaval- this is the top Arabic-Islamic liberalism today. But its not my point- my point is where this is underline.

[Buzz62]

Now Jews can't live peacefuly in arab regions here in Israel, where Arabs can live peacefuly in Jewish regions. And I mean both safety and crime (theivery).

I am an Israeli Arab. Conflicted and stressful are two of the easier words to pick. Where do I start?

Growing up in an environment that by definition embraces inequality by design is uncomfortable. It is not the naming that bothers, but the implementation and expectations people set. "This is a Jewish Country!" people would argue when faced with questions about equality.

It's 2012, and not a single mainstream party in Israel would call out for defining the state as the state of all its citizens. Attempts to do so by groups or parties would shun them into the "radical" bucket.

Having people disagree with you that equality is a basic right is highly demoralizing.

Setting the stage: Arabs make for about 18 percent to 20 percent of Israel's citizenry.

Looking at more practical policies that affect Arab society in Israel:

Lack of Urbanization
Since the formation of Israel, more than1,900 Jewish-majority community settlements (small towns) were formed and numerous modern cities.

No modern [mixed] city has been built with the Arab community in mind. The main basic barriers for adopting cities who are mainly designated for Jews:

Arab schools, as the school systems is separate by default (Most Jews and Arabs learn in separate schools).
Difficulty in building Arab cultural hubs: cafes, community centers, youth bodies (Without critical mass, there's little financial sense to open any of those).

Arab society is predominantly living in 100+ year old villages. While the infrastructure was upgraded years ago (electricity, Internet, etc.), they are still 100+ year old villages. They are not subjected to a structured plan to urbanize. This leads to horrid in-society effects:

Significantly more religious with no alternative in sight
Clan mentality remains a dominant factor, as the surrounding habitat does not allow for a city-life experiences: More privacy, families are spread out in more distant areas, multistory buildings that boost the family vs. community ratio.
Due to No. 2, municipality level politics are rigged: one clan votes to Clan No. 1, the rest to Clan No. 2, who in turn slice the cake to the whomever voted them in.
No. 3 makes it nearly impossible to actually fix problems in a village.
Lack of adequate infrastructure prevents modernization. This is especially evident when contrasted with Arabs, especially students, living in Israeli cities like Haifa. Life tyles are no different than their peers in London, Tel Aviv, ir Munich.


Education is a big one. Recent articles in mainstream Israeli media show 20 percent to 37 percent less investment in the education budget reaching Arab students.

This obviously leads to a chain reaction: 28 percent of Arab high-school students graduate (eligible for Bagrut), compared with 51 percent in the Jewish sector

Eleven percent of university undergrads are Arab, 9 percent of graduates, 7 percent of masters students, 3 percent of Ph.D students, and 2 percent of university academic staff.

This leads to vast socio-economic gaps between the two communities, leading to higher crime rates and lowered aspirations and hopes.

In the booming high tech industry in Israel, less than 4 percent of the workforce is Arab.

On the other hand, there's alienation:

Arabs in Israel are not part of the public discourse on how the country is and will be shaped.
Polls in recent years have stopped polling Arabs, specifically mentioning that polls reflect Jewish opinion.
Political parties in the government are elected based on slogans such as "No Loyalty, No Citizenship," suggesting to the Jewish majority that the Arab citizens are somehow collectively not loyal.
Different periods of time brought media onslaught on all popular Israeli TV, repeating mantras like "Arabs are ticking bombs" or "Israeli Arab leadership is inciting hatred and radicalism." All carried out by mainstream, in-government politicians. No other than the current prime minister has called Israeli Arabs "The real demographic threat."
Racism in its purest forms. Remarks on superiority are common. Phrases like "We're not like that, we're not Arabs" are thrown in any negative context.
Every time there's confrontation with an Arab country or militia, we're pitted with the "Others," and racism levels spike for a while
The occupation of Palestinians. We're by definition Palestinians, and folks from the West Bank and Gaza are literally family to many. Seeing them living under military occupation, while we live in relative freedom, mixes feelings even more.
Leading city municipality/community leadership in Israel openly call for racist behavior such as not renting or selling flats to Arabs (Carmiel as an example).


On the flip side. Life is relatively comfortable for the Arab middle class and higher.

Those who meet the socioeconomic bar cannot help but enjoy access to good public health care, purchasing power that satisfies most ordinary people, and decent-paying jobs, even for the working class.

Life is super safe compared to the region. Basic freedoms are mostly upheld by the law and physical attacks due to racism seldom occur. For the more fortunate among us, higher education and hard work are fantastic tools to get ahead into a better life.

Do excuse me for posting this anonymously, as life opportunities in Israel become vastly more limited for me if my name is Googled up and this post is surfaced.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/11/23/what_does_it_feel_like_to_be_an_israeli_arab.html

Errr...you were saying Sir?

[LehmanB]

You don't know the situation Buzz. There are plenty of Arabs in Jewish areas. daily work, buy. And I even talk and know some. and its one direction of relations.