Ben Hecht and the Irgun: A stone for his slingshot - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Moderator: PoFo Middle-East Mods

Forum rules: No one-line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum moderated in English, so please post in English only. Thank you.
#14422372
On the eve of Israel's war for independence, Academy Award Winner Ben Hecht gave a fundraiser for the Irgun Zvai Leumi at Slapsy Maxie's bar and tough guy joint. A few months ago, researchers found a typewritten copy of this speech in his collected papers:

am going to speak of unhappy things tonight, things you will not be pleased to hear—and things I shall find no pleasure in saying. But Menachim Beigen [sic], the Commander of the Irgun and military leader of the embattled Jews in Palestine, has cabled me from Tel Aviv asking of me a favor. He asks that I do what I can to arouse among the Jews who are not fighting in the Holy Land, the knowledge that without them the Holy Land will be lost. And with it will be lost forever the hope of the Jews taking their place as equals in the human family.

“We are fighting against great odds,” the Irgun commander says. “The enemy outnumbers us and is better equipped. His resources are unlimited. Great Britain is supplying him with its millions, its munitions, and its manpower. We have only ourselves. No nation will come to our side as ally or give us aid. We have only our brave soldiers and the long-dreaming soul of the Jews of the world. Speak to that soul wherever you can. If it can be awakened, we shall win.”

I shall speak to it tonight as well as I can. The soul of the Jew is an ancient and complicated business. It has been trained by disaster and calumny to live in caution, to hide itself cozily behind good deeds, to overlook insults, to charm its enemies, and to avoid getting its enemies angrier than they are. Thus hidden, thus full of cunning modesties and suicidal graces, it has remained nevertheless a brave soul—when destinies other than its own are at stake. It has fought and died valorously in defense of every cause but its own. Yes, it has the courage to fight and die for others. But it has hardly the guts even to speak in its own behalf. I know this soul of the Jew because I am part of it. And when the Irgun commander asks that it be wakened, he asks for a miracle. Awaken Jews into espousing their own cause—into believing in themselves—into grasping the battles of Palestine as their own bid for freedom; awaken them to knowing that victory in Palestine is a victory over anti-Semitism in every corner of the world. Commander Beigen asks for this miracle because he is a part of this miracle himself. He is the leader of an army of liberation that all the military power and political bedevilments of Great Britain were unable to dislodge.

While all the other Jews of the world and all their various synods and agencies cooed and hobnobbed with the British betrayer and usurper of their homeland; while all the other small Jews of the world let themselves be hornswoggled out of their honor and their hopes, the fighting Jews of the Irgun and their brave youthful allies named the Stern Gang—stood undaunted and uncompromising and battling as heroically as the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto. With one difference. They did not lose—not yet. The British lost.

For twenty-five years the mighty nation of Great Britain sought to steal Palestine—and failed. Because of the Irgun. Because Irgun soldiers died in battle. Because Irgun soldiers went singing to the British gallows—to hang where all the world could see—and did see—not a terrorist punished for crime but the look and sight of a Jewish patriot dying for his country. Now the Irgun asks for more miracles. It asks for us.

Let me remind you—who we have been. A few years ago in the days when the Germans were burning six million Jews in their lime pits and incinerators—a great and historic thing came to our ears. Thirty thousand Jews waiting in the ghetto of Warsaw to be taken off in the cattle cars to the German furnaces cried out to the world and to us, the Jews of the world—that they were not going to yield like sheep to the German butcher. They proclaimed that they were going to die in battle rather than let themselves be taken naked and unresisting to join the garbage pile of the Jewish dead. News of this event came over the radios of the world. It appeared in all the headlines. Thirty thousand Jews armed with pike poles, old guns and bombs made out of tin cans were giving battle to the German army in Warsaw. The German army marched upon the Warsaw ghetto with tanks, cannon, and flame-throwers. Outnumbered as in a nightmare, the Jews of Warsaw fought for twenty days, fought with wondrous valor—and with one eye on the sky.

They were waiting for help, for planes to appear and parachute weapons and supplies to them. No planes appeared. No weapons or supplies came out of the sky. No nation, fighting those same Germans, sent even a token pat on the back to these doomed warrior Jews. And from all the Jews of the world—from all of us—came not a single plane, a single gun, or a single loaf of bread to the thirty thousand who were battling not for their own survival—there was never any hope of that—but who were battling to bring a glow of human dignity to the pitiful and humiliated name of the Jews; our name as well as theirs.

They were all killed—these men and women of Warsaw who fought for the honor of their kind. And the last of them who stood in the wrecked streets of their ghetto with their ammunition used up—and the German tanks and flame-throwers wiping them out—the last of them shook their fists at the sky; not at the Germans, but at the friendless sky.

Let me tell you why the sky under which the thirty thousand Jews died remained empty—why there was not a single package to fall from a single plane. Let me tell you also why none of the nations fighting for democracy—not even our own country—spoke up as a government officially, spoke out officially as a nation to offer aid, hope, or even that recognition of valor for which the Jews of Warsaw fought and died. The reason is this. The Allies fighting for democracy had a policy toward the Jews, a very definite and strategic policy. This policy had one basic objective—a refusal to recognize the existence of the Jews of Europe whether they died in the Warsaw ghetto fighting or were burned by the millions in the German lime pits and incinerators.

It is unpleasant to hear this. It is unpleasant to say this. But it is the truth.



I am going to name a date and a fact. Write it in your Jewish memories. This is the Moscow conference of the Allies in 1943. A great document is being drawn up by Great Britain, Russia, and the United States. This document is called officially “Statement on the German Atrocities.” And it states that the United Kingdom, the United States, and the Soviet Union have received from many quarters evidence of atrocities and cold-blooded mass execution done by the Germans. And in this Statement the Allies pledge themselves to avenge these monstrous deeds. They list—in their Statement—the wholesale massacres of Polish, French, Dutch, Belgian, Norwegian hostages. They list the peasants of the island of Crete—as German victims. They list sixty-two different categories of German victims. Every name is listed but the name of Jew.

There is no reference in this Statement to the bloody fact that three million Jews have been murdered—for no other crime than that they were Jews—and that another three million are waiting to die in the German ovens. At the time this statement is being written—a genocide bloodier than any in history is taking place—a race of people is being exterminated. And this fact has been proclaimed by the German exterminators—who stand red-handed before the world boasting of their deed—that the Jews are being wiped out—because they are Jews.

This Statement ignoring the killing of three million unarmed Jews, and turning its back on the impending murder of three more million, was signed by Prime Minister Churchill, Premier Stalin, and President Roosevelt. I know of no political gesture in history as bold and inhuman as blissful silence. A silence that was like a door closing furtively and surreptitiously on the murderer and his victim—our Jewish people.

Let me tell you why this door was closed—why the word Jew was erased not only from the eyes of the world but from its own tomb. You will believe me when I tell you … because on my honor, I tell you the truth. And it is a truth you will recognize because it has always been in your mind—as well as my own—whether you spoke it or not. The truth was that Great Britain did not want any official recognition of the Jewish massacre to be put in the record. It did not want the desperate status of the Jews recognized officially. It did not want the conscience of the world stirred up by the foulest crime in history. It did not want this done because there was only one place for the doomed Jews of Europe to go—only one place eager to welcome them—Palestine.

Great Britain did not want the world’s attention called to the spectacle of a good and noble race being exterminated. This might undermine their shabby little plan to steal Palestine for themselves. Official acknowledgement that Jews had been killed and their killing would continue until they were a race reduced to bones and ashes might startle even the befogged mind of the world of 1943 and set it crying out for a remedy. And what might this remedy be? Only this—to open the ports of Palestine given to the Jews twenty years before—and let in the Jews not yet slaughtered. The British were opposed to this remedy. British policy preferred that all the Jews of Europe be murdered—and that they die incognito in the German furnaces rather than that a single Jewish refugee enter Palestine.

Here is another fact to keep in your memories. During the height of the German massacres, two ships carrying several thousand such refugees arrived at the Palestinian port of Haifa. A man named Lord Moyne, the British governor of Palestine, looked on the thousands of men, women, and children who had come crawling out of the pogroms, blackened by the smoke of massacres; looked and refused to allow these two ships to land, and their passengers to disembark. Lord Moyne ordered the two battered refugee ships—called the Struma and the Patria—to sail off. They sailed away. He sent them back into the Mediterranean. They were blown up by English or German mines. Every human being aboard them was killed. Lord Moyne had stood at the breach. He had kept British policy intact.

And where was American policy during those wild days of a people’s extermination? Let me tell you. It stood firmly, grimly, side by side with Great Britain. Mr. Roosevelt concurred in this British plot to lock the Jews away with their German murderers—and ignore the deed—and let them all be killed rather than let the ports of Palestine be opened. President Roosevelt concurred on the Struma and the Patria.

And here is another fact to hold in your Jewish memories. Let me tell you of another secret American agreement—of President Roosevelt’s and his State Department’s concurrence in the murder of three hundred thousand Jews of Roumania [sic]. This is also not a pleasant thing to hear, nor yet to say. For Great Britain and the United States are both honorable countries—dedicated to honorable aims. And so far as it is possible for human masses to be kind and good, such kindness and goodness are to be found in the peoples of England and America. But—as always in history the Jews are the wrong yardstick with which to measure the virtues of nations, or of their leaders. But it is the only measure a Jew has—who kills him, who lets him live.


It was early in the war. Roumania was not yet overrun by German troops and officials. The Roumanian government sent out word that payment of fifty dollars a piece, it would release the Jews of Roumania before the Germans came in and started their extermination. The fifty dollars a head were to cover transportation expenses to Palestine. We published and advertised this fact, in a score of newspapers. The American State Department branded our information as a lie. Mr. Roosevelt branded the Roumanian government’s offer as a myth. There were no such Jews to be saved. And we who tried to rouse the conscience of the world to save them—we were liars and sensation makers. Pressed to take action, our government informed us angrily that it was unaware of this Roumanian offer.

It was our government that lied—not we. The truth has come out in the published letters of the State Department. There was such an offer made by the Roumanians. And our State Department wrote secretly to Arab leaders—Ibn Saud among them—not to fear an influx of Roumanian Jewish refugees into Palestine. These letters assured the Arab leaders that the United States would secretly quash the rescue of the three hundred thousand Roumanian Jews—among them fifty thousand children.

And it did. It held the breach—with Lord Moyne. It stood firm for five months—till the Germans swarmed into Roumania. And then our State department relaxed. For the Germans took care of the rest of the job of keeping the Roumanian Jews—including their fifty thousand children—out of Palestine. They were all slaughtered.



All these unpleasant things I have said to you not to arouse futile angers against villainy past and gone. I have said them only to point out the danger in which the Jew stands today. In his hour of destruction the Jew of Europe was without friends. Today in his desperate hour of rebirth the plot is still the same. The Jew is still without friends.

He fights alone in Palestine—against great odds, against increasing odds. And if we Jews whose souls are being fed and strengthened by his courage—whose status in the eyes of the world—is being forged by his valor—if we dreaming Jews of the four winds believe that any nation will ride to his aid—we are fools.

There will be no help from governments. The governments will continue to play their immemorial and secret games of sabotage against the Jews. In Palestine the outnumbered Jews battle today against an enemy officered, armed, and financed by the British. And like the Jews of Warsaw these Palestinian heroes battle with one eye to the sky. They wait for us. We are their arsenal. Not the Four Freedoms, not the good old U.S.A.—but we, the Jews of the four winds. But this you know, or you would not be here. And it is not to awaken you that I speak. You are awake or you would not be here. It is to arm your wakefulness and help you to waken others that I speak.

You will be asked—and you may even ask yourself—what is the stake of the American Jew in Palestine? What has he to gain by the birth and triumph of the new nation of Israel? I will answer this question, first, with another question. What did the American Jews lose in the mass murder of the six million Jews of Europe? That which he lost—he will never lose again if there is a nation in Palestine called Israel. For only a Jewish nation sitting among the other nations of the world will be able to prevent ever the mass executions of Jews that have been going on since the year Four Hundred.

In the fifteen hundred years of their wooing of Europe, the Jews have never been able to halt a pogrom. In fact, the more important, the more assimilated the Jews in a given country became, the more certain was their ultimate status in that country—disfavor and destruction. Out of this one fact—that they were a people who could be slaughtered with impunity—that there was even honor to be won in their slaughtering—has risen much of the anti-Semitism that hangs likes an ever-darkening cloud over the world’s Jewry. When the sky is clear above you, you may be sure the cloud is elsewhere. It shifts from nation to nation, from century to century. It does not go away. All the relationships made the Jews, all the honors won, all the medals hung on them have not been enough to move even our own most civilized of countries to raise a hand in their behalf—when the hour of doom struck in Europe.

Here is our record as American Jews—in that pogrom. We allowed ourselves to be bamboozled by the British policy in Palestine—which was also the American policy—of keeping the Jews out of the Holy Land. We went along with the delusion that the British and American governments were kindly governments and kindly friends of the Jews. We could not believe otherwise, being who we are and where we are, part of those governments.

We went along—cheering for those governments who with their mighty right hand were winning a war against the Germans—and with their sly left hand locking the Jews of Europe away with their exterminators—by closing the ports of their only refuge—Palestine. We cheered a war—and we cheered the extermination of six million Jews.

Behind the cloak of pretended military emergency, the British—and their American State Department concurrers—plotted the future of Palestine—a Palestine to be held by the British as a military base—a Palestine to be handed over to an Arabian puppet king—already established in Trans Jordan [sic] by the British. And as a sop to what was known as Jewish world opinion the British explained that they could not let the Jews into Palestine during the war—and during their extermination—because German spies might come in with them—and German sympathizers.

These are the same British who whistled the Grand Mufti and his colleagues back from their Hitler honeymoon—and spread a red carpet for their re-entrance into Palestine. They were Nazis, they had fought on the German side in the war. But this was a minor facet of their natures—a peccadillo to be forgotten and condoned in the light of the more important fact that they hated Jews and were willing to help the British drive the Jews out of Palestine.

Only one group of Jews in the world did not concur in these secret plottings and underminings of Jews. This was the Irgun Zwei Leumi—that fought and publicized with their blood each step of the robbery—whether it was robbery of honor, freedom, or land. And with their help, for they are now being forged into the fabric of the new Jewish state—the State of Israel will not, when the time comes again—be as daft and dizzy as we American Jews were. It will not be spun about by the fear of divided loyalties as we were. It will not be duped by the siren song of patriotisms that ignore the carnage of the Jews.

However muddled such a Jewish state of Israel may be, it will have a long memory—and a clear head toward Jews. And when the time of pogrom comes again—it will raise a clear voice, backed by a strong arm—for Jews. And this is the only weapon the Jews need to prevent another time of butchery. For the world is not a place of evil. The conscience of the world is a Godly and aspiring one. Its head is perpetually in a fog, but there is a light in its heart. A clarion voice such as will come from the nation of Israel—and such has never come from the scattered, duped, and bewildered Jews wooing their way in other lands—such a voice will halt the pogroms and mass executions of tomorrow.

Tonight the battle rages in the land of Israel. Let us also look on our record as American Jews toward this present war. We Jews made this war possible. We concurred in it. Not only we American Jews who think only of America, but the Jews who were already planning the future of Palestine. They, too, concurred in this war and abetted the enemy. They did worse. They blessed it—to win a smile of approval from the British, their good friends. I will explain: Twenty years ago when the British held Palestine under a League of Nations mandate—to prepare a Jewish homeland in Palestine—that was their assignment and their sworn task—twenty years ago the British in defiance of that mandate sliced off a major chunk of Palestine—called it Trans Jordan and handed it over to a puppet king named Abdullah.

There was an outcry from the Jewish patriots of Palestine—from the Irgun Zwei Leumi. But these were merely Palestinians. The great and important Jews who handled the future of Palestine were English citizens and American citizens. These accredited leaders of Jewry thought the rape of Palestine by the British and the lawless invention of an Arab state by the British—an unfortunate but an unpreventable thing. They protested—but never loudly enough to jeopardize their standing as British or American citizens. They protested—but they were good sports about it. And the warnings of the Irgun leaders that Great Britain was preparing a war against Palestine—the war that is going on now—were drowned in the polite concurrences of English and American Jews.

The British were able openly and lawlessly to finance this Arab state in Trans Jordan—on loans given them by the U.S.A. They proceeded openly to pour military equipment into the Arab state, to send thousands of British officers and strategists to King Abdullah’s side, to ship him planes, tanks, and all their latest military gadgets—and to pay the salaries of his army. This is the army—the Arab Legion—that fights the Jews today. Not the Palestinian Arabs who have lived in friendship with the Jews—but this British trumped up Legion—fattened by British gold and British propaganda for a generation.

And why did the British do this? Why this long and foresighted plan against the Jews? The answer is that the Arabs make better British Colonials than the Jews. The answer is that the Arabs, do they win Palestine, will not harass British trade and prestige in the east by building up a thriving industrial nation. The answer is that the Arabs will create a nation content to live off Great Britain, content to be its not too civilized vassal, cohort, and uncompetitive ally. And the Jews if they win—will not be that—despite the fact that an English citizen sits today as the first president of Israel. This is a hope for the British—but a small one. The Jews of Palestine—being shot down today by British guns, blasted by British planes, will be Jews when they win—a nation and not a vassal suburb of Downing Street, London.



And what have we American Jews to gain by the triumph of the Jewish nation now battling in Palestine? We are a happy people in the U.S.A. But we are happy as Americans, not as Jews. Not entirely happy—as Jews. The slaughter of our kind in Europe has left a wound in our spirits that our victory as Americans in the war has not entirely healed. It is a Jewish wound kept always open by the fear of the future. And despite the honors and positions we have won in America, we are no different as Jews than our fathers and grandfathers in Europe. We are like them, as Jews—uncertain, despairing, disenchanted, and always singing ourselves to sleep with the happy news that we have friends in court.

The Jews have always had friends in court—but they have never won a verdict. They have been always a noise without power, a talent without roots, a homelover without a doorstep of their own. They have worn fine clothes—and remained a fine nobody. They have always been going somewhere—but they have come from nowhere. And a man who comes from nowhere is a lesser man than one who comes from a place. There is always mystery and suspicion about such a man.

The nationalized soul of every nation, however civilized, abhors instinctively the nationalistic vacuum out of which the Jew is perpetually emerging. Having no land of his own, the Jew is looked on as a man who would—if given the chance—usurp the land of his host.

This has been true even of our own melting pot—a pot in which every immigrant has fused away his antecedents—except the Jew. A man from Sweden, Ireland, Luxemburg, Hungary, Italy—as soon as he loses the accents of those places—can become an American without suspicion or hyphen attached to him. The Jew, with or without accent—can become only an American Jew.

This is part of our stake in Palestine. A Jewish nation will remove our mystery and give us origins and permit us to thrive in the world—on an equal footing with other nationals. We can paradoxically become American then—for we will not be carrying around in our souls the confusion of what we are—and spreading this confusion among our always easily confused neighbors.

And we will not seem like the remnant of some stubborn religious sect given to weird and alien religious practices. Without losing our religion we will lose our two-thousand-year-old dangerous identity as religious fanatics—an absurd identity, but an identity ready made for the devilish schemes of bigots and rabble rousers; an identity that has brought intolerance and disaster down on us. We will lose that identity, for the land of Israel will have a flag, an army, and a congress to prove we are like other people—and that we stem from a normal state and not be black magic out of a hole in the past.

But there is a stake beyond these stakes of convenience and aggrandizement that we Jews have in the battle for Palestine. Is that battle lost—we Jews, all of us, are lost for another seven generations. We will have made our bid for human national status—whether we helped or hid our heads in a bag—and if this bid fails we will become a gabby and empty people, a gabby and defeated people—more so than ever in our history.

We will become losers. And this name will track us down in every city and village of America—and fasten itself to us. Not losers of a war—every nation has had that tag on it, but losers of the right to exist as anything but what we have been—the dubious guest in the house. If our bid for a flag and a homeland fails, we will all of us stand guilty before the world of an unworthiness. And this unworthiness we will, for a change, have deserved—if it comes to us. It is our duty to see that it does not come to us. It is in our power to prevent its coming. We will win—if the long dreaming soul of the Jew is wakened. Thus speaks the leader of the Irgun forces.

Let me remind you—once more—who this leader is and who these Irgun fighters are. Menachim Beigen and his troops are the Terrorists. That was what they were called when their stalwart hearts launched the battle against the British betrayers and invaders of their homeland. They are the same not-to-be-vanquished and not-to-be-silenced soldiers whose underground fight wrenched the Jewish situation out of the sly British hands; whose unceasing attacks and demands swept away the political fogs behind which the British were silently maneuvering the Jewish state into limbo.

These men and women of the Irgun stood alone. They had no friends in any court—not even the Jewish court. The common people of Palestine loved them, hid them, glowed with pride over them. But the accredited leaders of the long Jewish negotiations for a homeland looked with terrified eyes on this heroic spearhead of Jewish freedom—the Irgun. These leaders joined with all the other nervous, flag-frightened Jews of the world—in denouncing them. And for years the soldiers of the Irgun who fought with a British noose around their necks were called gangsters and terrorists, pirates and lawbreakers—as were the handful of intrepid folk who once rallied to the new flag raised above Lexington and Bunker Hill.

But this is past. The denunciations are done with. The accredited leaders of the world’s organized Jewry survive now or die forever behind the army that has come out of the Palestinian underground. And the Jews of the world who called names and were fearful, are proud today of these same Terrorists. For history has revealed them in their true guise—not that of Terrorists but of champions risen to restore the people of Israel to their lost estate as human beings. The Irgun is a dedicated army. It leads the fight. And beside it fights the brave army of the Haganah. They were political rivals of the Irgun. They are brothers in arms tonight.



Jewish money has poured into a thousand causes. But there was never any cause in Jewish history like this one. In Palestine, the ancient land of miracles—another miracle is happening; a miracle as sweet as any recorded in the Testament. A two-thousand-year-old dream of the Jews is coming true—a dream of manhood hidden away in the prayers and lamentations of two thousand years. [Two paragraphs in the original text crossed out by Ben Hecht.]

In these dark centuries that have never ended—the Jews carried the dream of Israel in their hearts. The Hebrew Nation of David and the Kings had been hammered to bits—but the bits refused to die. Every Jewish poet, every rabbi, and every worker at his bench kept alive this dream. In Spain after a thousand years of torment—the Jews still sang of their Jerusalem and their Holy Land. Jehuda Halevy [sic], the Hebrew poet of Spain, wrote of a homeland no Jew had seen for a thousand years:

Jerusalem, oh City of Splendor, oh bright home of the Jews—our spirit flies to you from many lands. In the East—in the far land of the cedar and the lemon trees our hearts lie. And our souls dwell beside the sun gone down on Israel.

The sun is no longer down. A champion fights in Palestine. He will not surrender. But he calls on us. He needs us.

If he loses, he will lose because we did not put a gun in his hand.

He will lose because we—and not he—were too small for the hour of Jewish destiny.

He will lose because the Jews of the world dreamed away the days of battle.

But these are only words I speak—words to wake up Jews if there are any asleep. He will not lose. No cause that had behind it the sweet and powerful dream of freedom—has ever lost. This dream does not stand on the battlefields alone. It stands in us.

There are twenty-eight million Arabs. There are British wealth and British officers—and British military equipment. There are eight hundred thousand Jews—besieged and encircled by this Goliath tonight.

A David stands against Goliath. I ask you Jews—buy him a stone for his slingshot.


source: http://jewishreviewofbooks.com/articles/735/a-stone-for-his-slingshot/
#14422512
"Here is another fact to keep in your memories. During the height of the German massacres, two ships carrying several thousand such refugees arrived at the Palestinian port of Haifa. A man named Lord Moyne, the British governor of Palestine, looked on the thousands of men, women, and children who had come crawling out of the pogroms, blackened by the smoke of massacres; looked and refused to allow these two ships to land, and their passengers to disembark. Lord Moyne ordered the two battered refugee ships—called the Struma and the Patria—to sail off. They sailed away. He sent them back into the Mediterranean. They were blown up by English or German mines. Every human being aboard them was killed. Lord Moyne had stood at the breach. He had kept British policy intact."

There are SO many historical inaccuracies in this pretty short paragraph. The Speech was propaganda and contained a fair few outright lies in this paragraph.

Lord Moyne was in Cario not on the beach in Haifa. Neither sinking was by English or German Mines, and they were survivors from the Patria.

The Struma never reached Palestine. It was most likely sunk by a Soviet Submarine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struma_disaster

The Patria never sailed out of Haifa it was sunk by a bomb placed by the Haganah. 267 people were killed by a Jewish Bomb there deaths lie at the feet of those who planted the bomb not the British,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_disaster

The Irgun were a terrorist organization who carried out many many attacks killing innocent people. Terrorists and Murders. The Fact the so many Israelis and supporters still laud and support these murderers is pretty sad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
#14422542
pugsville wrote:"Here is another fact to keep in your memories. During the height of the German massacres, two ships carrying several thousand such refugees arrived at the Palestinian port of Haifa. A man named Lord Moyne, the British governor of Palestine, looked on the thousands of men, women, and children who had come crawling out of the pogroms, blackened by the smoke of massacres; looked and refused to allow these two ships to land, and their passengers to disembark. Lord Moyne ordered the two battered refugee ships—called the Struma and the Patria—to sail off. They sailed away. He sent them back into the Mediterranean. They were blown up by English or German mines. Every human being aboard them was killed. Lord Moyne had stood at the breach. He had kept British policy intact."

There are SO many historical inaccuracies in this pretty short paragraph. The Speech was propaganda and contained a fair few outright lies in this paragraph.

Lord Moyne was in Cario not on the beach in Haifa. Neither sinking was by English or German Mines, and they were survivors from the Patria.

The Struma never reached Palestine. It was most likely sunk by a Soviet Submarine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struma_disaster

The Patria never sailed out of Haifa it was sunk by a bomb placed by the Haganah. 267 people were killed by a Jewish Bomb there deaths lie at the feet of those who planted the bomb not the British,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_disaster

The Irgun were a terrorist organization who carried out many many attacks killing innocent people. Terrorists and Murders. The Fact the so many Israelis and supporters still laud and support these murderers is pretty sad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks


The inaccuracies were based on what was known at the time. Details did not come out on the Patria and Struma til later, but the essence is true, with the Royal Navy sending refugees back to their demise.
#14422561
The inaccuracies I pointed out were pretty obvious, they are gross misrepresentation of the facts. Complete fabrications.


The Sturma NEVER reached Haifa. Well known at the time,

The Patria was blown up by the Haganah, though at the time Zionist blamed the British knowing full well it was thier own actions.

IN NEITHER CASE was the Royal Navy involved . It was the Turks he sent teh Sturma back out and the Haganah who bombed the Patria.

Even with the benefit of hindsight your grasp of the basic facts in both cases is extremely poor.
#14422572
pugsville wrote:The inaccuracies I pointed out were pretty obvious, they are gross misrepresentation of the facts. Complete fabrications.


The Sturma NEVER reached Haifa. Well known at the time,

The Patria was blown up by the Haganah, though at the time Zionist blamed the British knowing full well it was thier own actions.

IN NEITHER CASE was the Royal Navy involved . It was the Turks he sent teh Sturma back out and the Haganah who bombed the Patria.

Even with the benefit of hindsight your grasp of the basic facts in both cases is extremely poor.


The Struma was refused permission to disembark on request of the Palestine administration. Ben Hecht was not himself in Eretz Yisrael but in America. He also talks about burning Jews in lime pits, which is impossible. The lime was used to disinfect the mass graves, not to dissolve the bodies.
#14422594
The Sturma was actions of the Turkish Government. Direct and Primary responsibility lie with the Turkish Government.

The British was opposed to it going on to Palestine. But were there talks about it going anywhere else? Why did teh British have particular responsibility to accept their refugees and indeed only in Palestine? The US or some other nation could have chosen to accept these refugees and made an offer. Teh British are no more liable or responsible than any other government.

There are two different issues.
(1) the acceptance of Jewish Refugees fleeing from Europe. And in this case the shame of refusal is pretty universal. Almost all countries h=should have accepted more of this Refugees.

(2) Immigration to Palestine, which most Political and Zionist. It's not a refugee issue.


Ben Hecht while he may not have known of the Hagnagh bombing the Patria. The fiction and lies that Lord Moynes ordered them to sail from Haifa would have been deliberate lies. The Struma never got anywhere near it. The Patria never left.
#14422609
pugsville wrote:The Sturma was actions of the Turkish Government. Direct and Primary responsibility lie with the Turkish Government.

The British was opposed to it going on to Palestine. But were there talks about it going anywhere else? Why did teh British have particular responsibility to accept their refugees and indeed only in Palestine? The US or some other nation could have chosen to accept these refugees and made an offer. Teh British are no more liable or responsible than any other government.

There are two different issues.
(1) the acceptance of Jewish Refugees fleeing from Europe. And in this case the shame of refusal is pretty universal. Almost all countries h=should have accepted more of this Refugees.

(2) Immigration to Palestine, which most Political and Zionist. It's not a refugee issue.


Ben Hecht while he may not have known of the Hagnagh bombing the Patria. The fiction and lies that Lord Moynes ordered them to sail from Haifa would have been deliberate lies. The Struma never got anywhere near it. The Patria never left.


The whole world agreed to allow Jews to settle in Palestine, and Britain renegged for political expediency, to appease the Arabs, who were the violent ones.
#14422799
The World did not agree to allow Jews to Settle In Palestine. France Britain, Italy and Japan. four nations who in the wake of WW1 were expanding their colonial empires through the league of nations mandate system.

What right did they have to rule and determine the future of Palestine?

What rights did native Palestinians have ?

The Entire Mandate system was pretty much wrong, it was racist paternalism at best, and rampant imperial colonialism in the main. The Imperial powers did very little to prepare their mandates for independence, the supposed main aim of the mandate system.

How was the Mandate of Palestine prepared for independence?And what were the rights of the Zionists and Native Palestinians in this context?


Here Palestine is provisionally recognized as a independent nation by the league of nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Ma ... of_Nations

"The preamble of the Mandate document states that the Mandate is granted to Britain "for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations". That article states that "(...) [C]ommunities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone." Throughout the period of the Mandate, Palestinian leaders cited this as proving their assertion that the British were obliged under the terms of the Mandate to facilitate the eventual creation of an independent Arab state in Palestine."

Article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine.
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/2FC ... CF007BF3CB

"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes. - See more at: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/2FC ... R7zAQ.dpuf"


Zionist settlement was always aiming at an independent state. This is a clear change in the rights and position of other sections of the Populations. The Balfour Declaration was always a vague document that could never be successfully reconciled. It was intentionally vague so various people could be encouraged to interrupt as they wished.
#14422830
The league of nations had provisional recognised Palestine as a Nation. Britain had administrative control, but The Mandate primarily was preparing the state of Palestine for Independence, the articles added to allow for Jewish settlement clearly say nothing could be done the changed the rights or position of the native population, granting any sort of Jewish state clearly changes the rights and position of the natives. Jewish rights in the mandate are always qualified by being secondary the rights of the native population and at the total discretion of the mandate power, Britain. It was a Jewish home IN Palestine, clearly not ALL of palestine but a limited area at the discretion of the mandate authority. All obligations to the Zionists were clearly discretionary not compulsory, and subject to preserving the rights and position of the native population.
#14422834
pugsville wrote:The league of nations had provisional recognised Palestine as a Nation. Britain had administrative control, but The Mandate primarily was preparing the state of Palestine for Independence, the articles added to allow for Jewish settlement clearly say nothing could be done the changed the rights or position of the native population, granting any sort of Jewish state clearly changes the rights and position of the natives. Jewish rights in the mandate are always qualified by being secondary the rights of the native population and at the total discretion of the mandate power, Britain. It was a Jewish home IN Palestine, clearly not ALL of palestine but a limited area at the discretion of the mandate authority. All obligations to the Zionists were clearly discretionary not compulsory, and subject to preserving the rights and position of the native population.



It says civil or religious rights, not national or political rights. The mandates commission interpreted this always to mean that Jews would be granted national rights, that is, the rights to form a state. When the British extended autonomy to the Arabs for them to form an "Arab Agency" (mirroring the Jewish Agency), the Arabs refused to participate, since doing so would recognize the authority of the mandate.

Read the protocol of the 1939 meeting of the league mandate commission. The commission accuses Lord MacDonald of abrogation of the mandate with the introduction of the white paper.

http://www.mideastweb.org/league_mandates_report_1939.htm
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/D54DB2B34342AE5D052565E9004F24DF
#14422846
"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes."

"Rights and Position" how is this phrase to be interrupted?

The Arabs wanted a representative body representing all of the population of palestine. The Jews managed to stop this. The Arabs were opposed to partition, setting up a Arab Agency they felt would led to partition. What was wrong with a democratic elected representative body? Surely totally in line with the primarly mandate responsibility of preparing Palestine for independence?


" The mandates commission interpreted this always to mean that Jews would be granted national rights, that is, the rights to form a state" have you got a reference for this? Your link does not say this (well I could be missing something could you quote the exact bit that refers to rJewish national rights and the right to form a state?)
#14422853
pugsville wrote:"The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes."

"Rights and Position" how is this phrase to be interrupted?

The Arabs wanted a representative body representing all of the population of palestine. The Jews managed to stop this. The Arabs were opposed to partition, setting up a Arab Agency they felt would led to partition. What was wrong with a democratic elected representative body? Surely totally in line with the primarly mandate responsibility of preparing Palestine for independence?


" The mandates commission interpreted this always to mean that Jews would be granted national rights, that is, the rights to form a state" have you got a reference for this? Your link does not say this (well I could be missing something could you quote the exact bit that refers to rJewish national rights and the right to form a state?)



No way you read the whole protocol. Read the two sessions after MacDonald joins the meeting.

It goes into this in detail, and the Mandates commission was the authoritative body to decide whether or not a policy was in material breach of the mandate.
#14422871
The document makes almost no clear decisions or about the meaning of the mandate and jewish national home and the protection of the rights and position of the native population means,

They do all agree however that the imposition of the Jewish National Home on the Palestinians is a clear unfair injustice, and that no people in the world would agree to such imposition.

They all agree clearly that the Palestinians had national rights (though what the means vis the Jewish National Home is very very vague). The discussions do not resolve any of the issues with any clarity.
#14422944
layman wrote:Allowing the creation of a jewish homeland is one of the bigger mistakes the British empire made.

They are ungrateful, racist, extremist and unfriendly to our interests. We should have left it to the arabs.


Ernest Bevin tried to do that, and we had to kick the perfidious brits out by force. If the Brits didn't keep renegging, we would have much better relations.

Also the Brits horrifyingly closed the borders of the mandate just at the beginning of the holocaust. You should watch this short lecture:

[youtube]Vfno9biEJcM[/youtube]
Last edited by dcomplex on 17 Jun 2014 12:20, edited 1 time in total.
#14422945
pugsville wrote:The document makes almost no clear decisions or about the meaning of the mandate and jewish national home and the protection of the rights and position of the native population means,

They do all agree however that the imposition of the Jewish National Home on the Palestinians is a clear unfair injustice, and that no people in the world would agree to such imposition.

They all agree clearly that the Palestinians had national rights (though what the means vis the Jewish National Home is very very vague). The discussions do not resolve any of the issues with any clarity.


Nice skim-job. What they actually argue is that they cannot approve the White Paper as it is in material breach of the mandate and logically stupid. One mandates commission member actually asks MacDonald if he takes them all to be fools.
#14423446
Dcomplex - please cut and paste the parts that you think say that. It seems little more than a long rambling conversation, Can you piont to anywhere where anything is settled and there is decisive decision or declaration?

The Opening post is a speech by a Propagandist who
(1 ) is telling outright lies in order to vilify people.
(2) while raising funds to support terrorism,
(3) and explicitly supporting terrorist murders.
#14423458
"M. Rappard therefore found it difficult to accept Mr. MacDonald's interpretation. It was not a verbal quibble, but something fundamental, because, if the authors of the mandate
were to make of the establishment of a national home an obligation only in so far as it did not prejudice the political and social rights of the existing inhabitants, Palestine could certainly not become the living home of another numerous and energetic people: for that would be incompatible with the complete freedom of the native inhabitants."

"One point which struck M. Rappard in Mr. MacDonald's statement was his comment on the meaning of civil and religious rights, which limited the action of the mandatory Power in its obligation to establish in Palestine a National Home for the Jewish people. Mr. MacDonald defined those civil and religious rights as those political and social rights which a free people in such circumstances were entitled to retain. M. Rappard felt some difficulty in accepting that meaning. Was it not a matter of principle that in interpreting a text one should so construe it as not to make it self-contradictory? The fundamental political and social rights of a free people surely included the right to object to the establishment, within the boundaries of their country, of a national home of another people. To say that it was a duty to establish a National Home for the Jews in Palestine without doing anything which might prejudice the political and social rights that a free people should be entitled to retain did not make sense, because that free people was bound to object. M. Rappard was inclined to believe therefore that the intention of the authors was to put a narrower meaning on the term "civil and religious rights". The same terms were used in the Preamble and in Article 2 of the mandate where they applied to "all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion". M. Rappard thought they should naturally be taken in the same sense in both passages."

It is not just M. Rappard, but he is the first. You have to read each member's arguments. The conclusions reject MacDonald's arguments and refer the matter to the whole league, which never met again, since WW2 started.

Also, how were the Irgun members "terrorist murderers"? Did they target civilians outside of attacks for deterrence and reprisals for killings of Jews?
#14423472
So random bombs in market places and such are OK if the justification is reprisal for some other attack ? They clearly targeted civilians and the British, they are clearly terrorist murderers. Do you support or condemn their actions? How is planting a bomb and randomly killing civilians not a terrorist murder?

He did not occupy czechoslovakia. The people ther[…]

No one would be arrested if protesters did not dis[…]

Nope! Yep! Who claimed they were? What predat[…]

Russia-Ukraine War 2022

It seems a critical moment in the conflict just ha[…]