[shmatthew]

Few days ago, Egypt proposed ceasefire for both Israel and Hamas. Israel accepted the truce and tried to make peace with Hamas.
Hamas, on the other hand, rejected the truce because of political reasons such as:

claiming they had only found about it through the media and were angry that it did not deal with some of the group's major demands: a conclusive end of Israel and Egypt's blockade on Gaza, and the release of certain prisoners from Israeli jails.

(http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... rael-hamas)

Now, here's the question.
If Hamas could have prevented the hundreds of people from dying by accepting the truce, why didn't they accept it?
The answer is quite simple. Hamas' goal is not peace. Its goal is to destroy Israel including women and children. That's why Hamas started launching rockets at civilian population in Israel causing Israel to fight back in self-defense.
If Hamas wanted peace, they wouldn't have rejected the truce to ceasefire. They would have accepted it because it could save Palestinian lives.

But they didn't even try to save the lives of Palestinians. Instead, they kept firing rockets at Israel knowing that Israel will fire back.
That tells us only one thing: Hamas don't care about Palestinian lives or Israeli lives. They don't care about whether women or children die.
As a matter of fact, Hamas exploits their death to gain sympathy from the world and condemn Israel for fighting back.

Hamas is ultimately guilt of forcing Israel to fire back and rejecting the ceasefire truce.
Hamas should have accepted the truce to save Palestinians' lives.
But they didn't. Therefore, Hamas is ultimately guilty of death of Palestinians.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

Gaza has been under siege from Israeli forces by land air and sea for almost a decade now. They don't have building supplies their short on water electricity and space, in fact the only thing they have an abundance of is people. As callous and ruthless as it may seem 200+ people out of 1.8million is like a drop in the ocean. Unless they can get Israel to call of the siege it must keep these hostilities going or those 200+ casualties will be all for nothing.

[dcomplex]

jessup, you do not let food/humanitarian aid in during a siege. It is a legal blockade. Hamas should just surrender and the blockade will be lifted. They won't because their goal is still destroying Israel. Fine, then we will maintain the blockade.

[Wrath_014]

jessup, you do not let food/humanitarian aid in during a siege. It is a legal blockade. Hamas should just surrender and the blockade will be lifted. They won't because their goal is still destroying Israel. Fine, then we will maintain the blockade.

You do let food and humanitarian support in, that is why the blockade is legal.

[Saeko]

If Israel was interested in peace, then why did they break the most recent ceasefire agreement?

Heck. Why did they break just about every ceasefire agreement?

Why would Hamas agree to a ceasefire if it knew Israel would break it anyway?

[dcomplex]

What ceasefire did Israel break?

[OllytheBrit]

Now, here's the question.
If Hamas could have prevented the hundreds of people from dying by accepting the truce, why didn't they accept it?
The answer is quite simple. Hamas' goal is not peace. Its goal is to destroy Israel including women and children. That's why Hamas started launching rockets at civilian population in Israel causing Israel to fight back in self-defense.
If Hamas wanted peace, they wouldn't have rejected the truce to ceasefire. They would have accepted it because it could save Palestinian lives.

But they didn't even try to save the lives of Palestinians. Instead, they kept firing rockets at Israel knowing that Israel will fire back.
That tells us only one thing: Hamas don't care about Palestinian lives or Israeli lives. They don't care about whether women or children die.
As a matter of fact, Hamas exploits their death to gain sympathy from the world and condemn Israel for fighting back.

Hamas is ultimately guilt of forcing Israel to fire back and rejecting the ceasefire truce.
Hamas should have accepted the truce to save Palestinians' lives.
But they didn't. Therefore, Hamas is ultimately guilty of death of Palestinians.

My compliments on a thoughtful post. (and as it happens, it was exactly that personally-held stance which has just resulted in me being chucked off another forum because it infuriated that forum's liberal moderators! 'abuse of power' or what?) I'm afraid that most of the (it has to be said) 'shallow' rationale over here - public and liberal 'talking heads' - is sympathetic towards the Gazans though, and the Israelis are the 'devil incarnate'; indeed, the evidence of Hamas' obvious contempt for the Gazans exemplified in the above assertion (which I've highlighted) seems to be the elephant in the room. And the BBC never misses an opportunity to introduce its bias by laying much emphasis on the child casualties.

[Saeko]

What ceasefire did Israel break?

Why don't we start with the 2008 ceasefire agreement? According to the IMFA, Hamas was required to cease all rocket and mortar attacks, and, again, according to the IMFA, did do so. Israel, on the other hand, was required to lift its blockade of Gaza. Not only did it not do so, but on November 4th it launched an operation in Gaza that resulted in the assassination of several Hamas members.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel ... eport-2009

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert resigned in September because of a police investigation into his alleged involvement in corruption and fraud, but remained in office pending legislative elections scheduled for February 2009. Peace talks between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority (PA) continued, but neither the peace agreement that US President George W. Bush had undertaken to broker before the end of the year, nor any other concrete progress was achieved by the end of 2008. On the contrary, at the end of the year the Gaza Strip was under an unprecedented level of bombardment – by air, land and sea – by Israeli forces. In addition, the Israeli authorities did not fulfil their undertakings to ease restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the OPT and to remove illegal Israeli settlements established in recent years. A ceasefire agreed in June between Israel and Palestinian armed groups in Gaza held for four and a half months, but broke down after Israeli forces killed six Palestinian militants in air strikes and other attacks on 4 November.

[OllytheBrit]

Why don't we start with the 2008 ceasefire agreement? According to the IMFA, Hamas was required to cease all rocket and mortar attacks, and, again, according to the IMFA, did do so. Israel, on the other hand, was required to lift its blockade of Gaza. Not only did it not do so, but on November 4th it launched an operation in Gaza that resulted in the assassination of several Hamas members.

Because too many would-be suicide bombers were detected trying to cross into Israel to do what they do best?

[dcomplex]

Israel never agreed to lift the blockade until Hamas accepts the Quartet conditions. Israel didn't break any ceasefire either in 2008. That was Hamas by firing rockets.

[Heisenberg]

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Hamas wants peace - least of all Hamas. There are a couple of issues here:

(1) Fighting back with massive, disproportionate air strikes is exactly what Hamas wants Israel to do. And yet, Israel still does it. Because Israel has the pigheaded, self-righteous inability to recognise this, it will continue to lose the propaganda war.

(2) Hamas and Israel both know that Hamas' rocket attacks are completely ineffective. Over the last 15 years, there have been 15,000+ rocket and mortar attacks, causing a total of 28 deaths. This simply does not justify massive aerial bombardment of civilian areas. The Iron Dome system is a perfectly valid piece of "self-defence" kit as it is, if Israel is actually interested in that.

The main thing to remember here is that neither side has the moral high ground. Neither side wants peaceful coexistence. They both want to subjugate the other. If you think Israel is some peaceful victim in all this, I don't really know what to say. It's a military superpower surrounded by hilariously ineffective Arab armies and a few pests in Gaza. It also causes far, far more civilian casualties than Palestinian attacks do, by virtue of its total military superiority. The "self-defence" argument simply does not hold.

[Saeko]

Because too many would-be suicide bombers were detected trying to cross into Israel to do what they do best?

Again, according to the IMFA itself, Hamas did everything it could to cease its hostilities against Israel. You are aware that there are multiple militant groups in Gaza, and not just Hamas right? Hamas is simply too small and too disorganized to control all of them. Unless these would be suicide bombers were members of Hamas, there was no justification for Israel assassinating Hamas members.

[Saeko]

Israel never agreed to lift the blockade until Hamas accepts the Quartet conditions. Israel didn't break any ceasefire either in 2008. That was Hamas by firing rockets.

Your unsourced and completely unsubstantiated claim carries a lot of weight in this discussion.

[OllytheBrit]

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Hamas wants peace - least of all Hamas. There are a couple of issues here:

(1) Fighting back with massive, disproportionate air strikes is exactly what Hamas wants Israel to do. And yet, Israel still does it. Because Israel has the pigheaded, self-righteous inability to recognise this, it will continue to lose the propaganda war.

What should Israel do then, degrade the IDF until it has the same military force as Hamas?

(2) Hamas and Israel both know that Hamas' rocket attacks are completely ineffective. Over the last 15 years, there have been 15,000+ rocket and mortar attacks, causing a total of 28 deaths. This simply does not justify massive aerial bombardment of civilian areas. The Iron Dome system is a perfectly valid piece of "self-defence" kit as it is, if Israel is actually interested in that.

And the same question - what should Israel do then, temporarily cease fire until the 'numbers' match up? Or maybe instead of incursions by air or on the ground, adopt Hamas' tactics and just keep firing HE rockets into Gaza? Now that would be the anti-Israel liberals on the defensive??

The main thing to remember here is that neither side has the moral high ground. Neither side wants peaceful coexistence. They both want to subjugate the other. If you think Israel is some peaceful victim in all this, I don't really know what to say. It's a military superpower surrounded by hilariously ineffective Arab armies and a few pests in Gaza. It also causes far, far more civilian casualties than Palestinian attacks do, by virtue of its total military superiority. The "self-defence" argument simply does not hold.

I personally believe that all Israel wants is to be able to live in peace alongside its neighbour. It's probably all the 'man on the Gazan omnibus' wants too if the truth is known, but Hamas won't allow it.

[Saeko]

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Hamas wants peace - least of all Hamas. There are a couple of issues here:

(1) Fighting back with massive, disproportionate air strikes is exactly what Hamas wants Israel to do. And yet, Israel still does it. Because Israel has the pigheaded, self-righteous inability to recognise this, it will continue to lose the propaganda war.

What should Israel do then, degrade the IDF until it has the same military force as Hamas?

And the same question - what should Israel do then, temporarily cease fire until the 'numbers' match up? Or maybe instead of incursions by air or on the ground, adopt Hamas' tactics and just keep firing HE rockets into Gaza? Now that would be the anti-Israel liberals on the defensive??

I personally believe that all Israel wants is to be able to live in peace alongside its neighbour. It's probably all the 'man on the Gazan omnibus' wants too if the truth is known, but Hamas won't allow it.

For the record, I agree with Heisenberg completely.

If Israel wants peace, then what it should do is wipe the Palestinians from the face of the Earth. Of course, that would invite all sorts of hell from the West, so that's off the table.

The other option it has is to recognize Palestine as a sovereign state, and if Palestine dares attacks Israel, then let the UN deal with them.

[OllytheBrit]

Again, according to the IMFA itself, Hamas did everything it could to cease its hostilities against Israel. You are aware that there are multiple militant groups in Gaza, and not just Hamas right? Hamas is simply too small and too disorganized to control all of them. Unless these would be suicide bombers were members of Hamas, there was no justification for Israel assassinating Hamas members.

I wasn't aware as a matter of fact! So why does Hamas get all the publicity then? Don't the other 'multiple militant groups in Gaza' complain because they're being side-lined? Out of curiosity, do you think it would be a good idea if Israel retaliated in kind, and launched rockets into Gaza on a tit-for-tat basis?

[Saeko]

I wasn't aware as a matter of fact! So why does Hamas get all the publicity then? Don't the other 'multiple militant groups in Gaza' complain because they're being side-lined? Out of curiosity, do you think it would be a good idea if Israel retaliated in kind, and launched rockets into Gaza a tit-for-tat basis?

Because they are the official, elected government of Gaza.

Out of curiosity, do you think it would be a good idea if Israel retaliated in kind, and launched rockets into Gaza a tit-for-tat basis?

I don't know. I'm no expert in military strategy. But if Israel wants peace, then see my previous post.

[OllytheBrit]

For the record, I agree with Heisenberg completely.

If Israel wants peace, then what it should do is wipe the Palestinians from the face of the Earth. Of course, that would invite all sorts of hell from the West, so that's off the table.

The other option it has is to recognize Palestine as a sovereign state, and if Palestine dares attacks Israel, then let the UN will deal with them.

Would that it were so simple!

[dcomplex]

Yeah the UN would solve it by sending nukes to Gaza for them to use on us

[Heisenberg]

What should Israel do then, degrade the IDF until it has the same military force as Hamas?

How about not responding to every single provocation with massive, disproportionate bombing campaigns? You realise this is primarily a propaganda war, right? All Israel's ludicrously over-the-top responses do is serve to make it look like the aggressor. A bit of restraint would go a long way, and might actually get people focusing on Hamas' actions. Besides, as I've already said, the Iron Dome system means that Hamas' rockets will never cause any serious damage. 28 deaths in 13 years is barely a rounding error - more people are killed in car accidents every day. Responding to every Israeli casualty by inflicting several hundred times that number on Gaza doesn't solve anything.

And the same question - what should Israel do then, temporarily cease fire until the 'numbers' match up? Or maybe instead of incursions by air or on the ground, adopt Hamas' tactics and just keep firing HE rockets into Gaza? Now that would be the anti-Israel liberals on the defensive??

This, as ever from you, is barely coherent rubbish. Ceasing fire would not magically cause the Israeli casualty rate to increase. The Iron Dome (i.e. defensive) system does not cause Gazan casualties. Simply letting it do its job would suffice.

I'm amazed that the right wing somehow manages to see Israel as some poor, defenceless little rabbit in the face of Big Bad Hamas. It's absolutely laughable. I've asked this question before and have never received a response: did the British army respond to the IRA by large-scale punitive air strikes against Dundalk or Dublin? Since they didn't, why is it so important that Israel does just that to Gaza?