Long-forgotten, doomed-for-failure "Two States Solution" - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14985221
pugsville wrote:The Occupation degrades both the occupied and the occupier.


There is no occupation. You are inventing history here. In order for this debacle to be an 'occupation' the land in question must originally, that is predating the supposed occupation, be in a recognized possession of a legal entity, recognized by the World body such as UN or, predating it, the League of Nations.

To wit, - British-mandated Palestine had never received such a status! The Land in question is, at best, disputed land. Palestine was never, in a recorded history, a recognized country with established borders. It has always been an afterthought of a power that happened to be holding it at any time in the past 2000 years. Nobody cared for Palestine, - ever!

Palestine became important to the likes of YOU only After the Jews got their hands on it. Get it! Before that, - that is before 1947, nobody, with one exception, really cared. It was important only to one ethnic group, - the Jews! The Arabs did not care, nor the Turks, nor the Romans...I can go on! The Jews cared, - do you know why? I hope that you do, and if not, go and get some education!

pugsville wrote:...Israel negotiated in bad faith, refused to live up to it's commitments...


What? You are inventing history again! I guess, the only thing that is acceptable to you would be a wholesale departure of the Jews from Israel. Because that is what the Arabs want and totally expect to get! Anything less that that, according to the Palestinian Arabs and YOU, would be what you are saying here, - "Israel negotiated in bad faith, refused to live up to it's commitments".

Take a good hard look at the peace offers that Israel made starting with mid 1990's and proceeding to the 2008. Arabs were offered 97.5% of EVERYTHING that they asked for! And the Arabs said, NO!
You are having a nerve accusing Israel of "...negotiating in bad faith..."!

pugsville wrote: (Israel)... had has undermined and actively destroyed the two state solution


Two-state solution has never really existed and has never really been on table any way. That was a concept for the naive and gullible. The Arabs never wanted it and neither did the Israelis. Are you naive?

To Palestinian Arabs, the two-state solution is a scenario that exist as a jumping point to one-state solution - Palestine instead of Israel. The Arabs are not hiding this.

To the Israelis, the two-state solution represents a total loss of their historic and ancestral land, as well as a strategic and existentialist danger.

Two-sate solution cannot proceed an any shape or form and we knew this back in 1993. All those, - people and countries, who actually matter knew this! Yes, - there is a solution, and perhaps we will get there, but it is not what you think!

pugsville wrote: Isael has decided it would rather have more Palestinian land than peace.


The Land you are referring too, is not Palestinian land. Let me put it to you this way, - it is like me saying to you that the land that your house is built on is MINE! You might ask why? And I wold say, because I said so! If you do not comply, then I go to war. Get it?

Funny thing is that the Arabs actually went to war, lost that war, and still screaming the same thing, like a broken telephone.
Last edited by Metoo on 02 Feb 2019 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
#14985224
colliric wrote:Ultimately the aim is to get a hold on the Temple Mount, the last remaining piece of land the Palestinians control in Jerusalem.

Shameful behaviour.

Apartheid galore.

At this point the UN should ALWAYS vote against Israel.


What you are saying is delusional as well as inflammatory and simply not true. Please understand that Palestinians do not control Temple Mount, - officially Jordanian Monarch is seen as a protector of Muslim sites on Temple Mount. From a tactical perspective it is Israel that has total control of all places on Temple Mount, - Muslim and Jewish.

There has NEVER been any official statements or actions on the part of ANY Israeli Government from 1948 on, to even suggest that there is any danger to any of Muslim holly places on Temple Mount. The Mosques on Temple Mount are not in any danger and have never been in any danger. IDF will go to any length to protect it! It is the law in Israel.

Therefore, Israel does nothing shameful!

UN nearly always votes against Israel. UN does not vote against the worst perpetrators of human rights abuses with the same rate as it does vote against Israel. And yet, Israel has free elections, a recognized democracy with a functional economy, freedom of choice for all citizens, and all while being one of the most important contributor to the welfare of the World.

Sure, - according to the UN, it is countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia or dozens of failed African States or China, or Russia, etc. etc. is a better place in that regard then Israel.

There is a term for what you are advocating for, - it is called antisemitism! To put it simply, - you dislike the Jews, - admit it!

Because, on rational grounds, you can't support what you are actually saying, - so it must be deep emotional and irrational thing with you...you know, the German Nazis felt very similar, - think about it...
#14985361
skinster wrote:There's hasbara-trolling and there's hasbara-trolling^ and... :lol: I bet there's even zionists ITT thinking what is this guy? :lol: :?:

This guy is a hasbara troll.

If you don't agree it means you're an antisemite, get it? :knife:


LOL! You are funny...when you have nothing to say, you fall back to usual pearls...Still, - stand-up comedy is not for you. Do not give up your day-time job.

Although, it is amusing to see how hard it is for you to squeeze out a thought...like I said, - LOL!
#14985501
I actually had something to say; pointed out you're an obvious hasbara troll, someone who is paid to go online and attempt to polish the turd known as Israel. You think this is the first time I've come across your ilk? :D

I mean if you want to even come across as being genuine try the "Israel is a democracy and really tries hard for peace while militarily occupying and holding in a concentration camp 5+ million people" lines instead because they're a little more non-hasbara-y, since some people on this board actually believe that shit, compared to the stuff you posted (which was very amusing btw)
#14985734
The UN since 1948 became illegitimate organization dominated by third world shitholes
We arent going to recieve orders from Uganda or Cuba
UN told Israel to remove the fence which has actually saved lives and stopped the suicide bombing wave
UN told Israel to receive the so called "refugees" from 1948 a suicidal move

Why should Israel listen to the UN? I see no reason to do that
#14985740
Zionist Nationalist wrote:Why should Israel listen to the UN? I see no reason to do that


The organisation was designed to be democratic, every country has a say no matter how small. Including yours.

The idea of the UN was to stop WW3, and if Israel doesn't want to encourage a third world war, they should reconsider much of their actions.

Anti-Semitism is on the rise again worldwide because of the brutal actions of the Kinesset and the Apartheid state of Israel.

Want to help the Diaspora Jews? Listen to the UN and at least consider what they are proposing. Will result in a worldwide reduction of Kinesset-themed anti-semetic attacks.

I'm currently reading Flavius Josephus and his The Jewish Wars.... Remember when the Jews didn't listen to the Roman "UN" Empire the first time? Didn't turn out very good.
#14985743
colliric wrote:
The organisation was designed to be democratic, every country has a say no matter how small. Including yours.

The idea of the UN was to stop WW3, and if Israel doesn't want to encourage a third world war, they should reconsider much of their actions.

Anti-Semitism is on the rise again worldwide because of the brutal actions of the Kinesset and the Apartheid state of Israel.

Want to help the Diaspora Jews? Listen to the UN and at least consider what they are proposing. Will result in a worldwide reduction of Kinesset-themed anti-semetic attacks.

I'm currently reading Flavius Josephus and his The Jewish Wars.... Remember when the Jews didn't listen to the Roman "UN" Empire the first time? Didn't turn out very good.
You still havent provided any reason to why Israel should listen to to the UN suicidal demands from Israel

anti semitism actually benifiting the state of Israel as it attract Jews from around the world thats exactly what the government wants
#14985745
Zionist Nationalist wrote:anti semitism actually benifiting the state of Israel as it attract Jews from around the world thats exactly what the government wants


I know it's what they want.... But the Diaspora is going to be hurt badly and you know it. Personally I think Israel is selfish. Basically trying to implode the Diaspora and have all Jews "make aliyah".

P.s. The Jewish Wars is awesome, currently reading about Titus campaign. Great companion to the New Testament's "The Apocalypse" version of the same Jerusalem events.
#14985945
Metoo wrote:There is no occupation. You are inventing history here. In order for this debacle to be an 'occupation' the land in question must originally, that is predating the supposed occupation, be in a recognized possession of a legal entity, recognized by the World body such as UN or, predating it, the League of Nations.

To wit, - British-mandated Palestine had never received such a status! The Land in question is, at best, disputed land. Palestine was never, in a recorded history, a recognized country with established borders. It has always been an afterthought of a power that happened to be holding it at any time in the past 2000 years. Nobody cared for Palestine, - ever!
.

Well you just wrong. The UN, the Interntal Court of Justice, teh Red cross and vast majority of countries agree that it is an occupation. (as Israel has at times, their position has never been consistent)

The British got legal opinion during the mandate, which told the mandate was a separate recognized contry with established borders.

You may disagree and have a different opinion but it is the over whemingly minority position that the bodies the exist to rule of these matters disagree with,.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... ettlements

Metoo wrote:Palestine became important to the likes of YOU only After the Jews got their hands on it. Get it! Before that, - that is before 1947, nobody, with one exception, really cared. It was important only to one ethnic group, - the Jews! The Arabs did not care, nor the Turks, nor the Romans...I can go on! The Jews cared, - do you know why? I hope that you do, and if not, go and get some education!

facile wrongness. The People living there cared. To say otherwise is a fundamental dishonest..

Most Jews did not care about Palestine. Very few tried to immigrate to Plasticine in 2,000 years. Jews leaving Europe vastly preferred to go to the Americas when they had a choice. In the late 1920 more jews were leaving Palestine than arriving.


Metoo wrote:What? You are inventing history again! I guess, the only thing that is acceptable to you would be a wholesale departure of the Jews from Israel. Because that is what the Arabs want and totally expect to get! Anything less that that, according to the Palestinian Arabs and YOU, would be what you are saying here, - "Israel negotiated in bad faith, refused to live up to it's commitments".

Take a good hard look at the peace offers that Israel made starting with mid 1990's and proceeding to the 2008. Arabs were offered 97.5% of EVERYTHING that they asked for! And the Arabs said, NO!
You are having a nerve accusing Israel of "...negotiating in bad faith..."!



Two-state solution has never really existed and has never really been on table any way. That was a concept for the naive and gullible. The Arabs never wanted it and neither did the Israelis. Are you naive?

Make your mind up which argument you are running. Are you just illogical?


To Palestinian Arabs, the two-state solution is a scenario that exist as a jumping point to one-state solution - Palestine instead of Israel. The Arabs are not hiding this.
Metoo wrote:To the Israelis, the two-state solution represents a total loss of their historic and ancestral land, as well as a strategic and existentialist danger.

Where people lived thousands of years ago is of no matter when deciding such matters now, as a principle for determining borders is one of the stupidest imaginable, Is everyone to go back to where their ancestoprs where 2,000 years ago? really?

The Palestinians are the only ones facing an existential threat.

Metoo wrote:Two-sate solution cannot proceed an any shape or form and we knew this back in 1993. All those, - people and countries, who actually matter knew this! Yes, - there is a solution, and perhaps we will get there, but it is not what you think!

Whats the alternative? The Two state solution id the only possible peaceful solution. Teh One state solution is unworkable in the long run.

Metoo wrote:The Land you are referring too, is not Palestinian land. Let me put it to you this way, - it is like me saying to you that the land that your house is built on is MINE! You might ask why? And I wold say, because I said so! If you do not comply, then I go to war. Get it?

It's the reverse. It;s the Israels seizing land by forces and pushing out the long established populations.
#14985947
Zionist Nationalist wrote:The UN since 1948 became illegitimate organization dominated by third world shitholes
We arent going to recieve orders from Uganda or Cuba
UN told Israel to remove the fence which has actually saved lives and stopped the suicide bombing wave
UN told Israel to receive the so called "refugees" from 1948 a suicidal move

Why should Israel listen to the UN? I see no reason to do that


If your actually built the border wall on Israeli land no one would have a problem with it.

It;s just the Israelis used it as a massive land grab, abd made the lives aof many Palestinians much worse but cutting people off from their land and communities.

Why should people who flee their homes in time of war , lose everything and be denied the right to return to their homes?

There is no reasonable argument that the 1948 refugees were an threat. The problem was that teh Israleis wanted expanded borders, whoch would havbe made the ruling class a minority.
#14986022
pugsville wrote:If your actually built the border wall on Israeli land no one would have a problem with it.


Except that for many Arabs, Israel has no right to any land.
Even if 80% or even 90% of the Arabs would agree with an Israel within 1967 borders, they will still come up with the millions of descendants of the refugees having a right of return, destroying Israel as a Jewish homeland.
And the terrorists from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PLFP, Hezbollah, or Iran, can then threaten and shoot rockets in a much diminished territory of Israel.
As they say, thanks but no thanks.
#14986052
Ter wrote:Except that for many Arabs, Israel has no right to any land.
Even if 80% or even 90% of the Arabs would agree with an Israel within 1967 borders, they will still come up with the millions of descendants of the refugees having a right of return, destroying Israel as a Jewish homeland.
And the terrorists from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PLFP, Hezbollah, or Iran, can then threaten and shoot rockets in a much diminished territory of Israel.
As they say, thanks but no thanks.


So Israel can annex as much and as little of other people's land as it likes?

For many Israelis the Palestinians had no right to ANY land.

Remember Israel that invaded Palestine. NOT the other way around.

SO Israel can deny Palestinian civil, property, political and human rights just forever?

Israel can occupy the west bank militarily for security reasons without a massive wholesale program of settlement of dispossession. Security is NOT a reason for these actions. Desire for the land and disregard for the long standing population is.
#14986054
pugsville wrote:So Israel can annex as much and as little of other people's land as it likes?

I did not say that anywhere.
I personally think the settlements should not have happened and the Arabs can get the whole of the West Bank.
For Jerusalem an equitable solution needs to be sought.
But that is just me.

In my opinion, the land is not the biggest problem, it is the demand that the millions of descendants of the original refugees can flood into Israel proper. The Arabs are using the demographic weapon and that cannot be allowed. Removing refugee status for those descendants that have acquired different nationalities is a good first step.
#14986061
Ter wrote:I did not say that anywhere.
I personally think the settlements should not have happened and the Arabs can get the whole of the West Bank.
For Jerusalem an equitable solution needs to be sought.
But that is just me.

East Jerusalem is in the west bank.


Ter wrote:I
In my opinion, the land is not the biggest problem, it is the demand that the millions of descendants of the original refugees can flood into Israel proper. The Arabs are using the demographic weapon and that cannot be allowed. Removing refugee status for those descendants that have acquired different nationalities is a good first step.


Well if Israel let the refugees return home it would not have been a problem.
#14987231
skinster wrote:I actually had something to say; pointed out you're an obvious hasbara troll, someone who is paid to go online and attempt to polish the turd known as Israel. You think this is the first time I've come across your ilk?


LOL!...No, really, - LOL! You are a classic demagogue of Marxist-Leninist-Bundists flavor, right out of 1915-1917's time frame. Look, at WHAT YOU DO, - when you can't attack my reasoning , YOU ATTACK ME PERSONALLY! Classic!

I am sure that you had "....come across (my) ilk...". And I am sure you failed miserably, debating my "ilk", just like you failed miserably debating me. You have nothing to say and you said nothing, - you just baselessly accuse, point fingers without merit and spew hatred as you go. Shame!

You know, - the Arabs of Palestine are suffering from the same illness as you do,- morbid stupidity and mental impotence! Just like you, they can't reason, form a course of action and ultimately win. They are, like you, losers! The history has shown this time and again...there, - prove me wrong!

skinster wrote:I mean if you want to even come across as being genuine try the "Israel is a democracy and really tries hard for peace while militarily occupying and holding in a concentration camp 5+ million people" lines instead because they're a little more non-hasbara-y, since some people on this board actually believe that shit, compared to the stuff you posted (which was very amusing btw)


LOL! Do you even know the definition of democracy? No matter...where did you get this 5 million people? Who did you count? You can't even form a coherent thought on the subject here! Perhaps English is a problem for you? Well, - learn first and argue later.

I already explained to you, that you cannot in one sentence ask for freedom and threaten the people who hold the key to said freedom. Get it? Let me make it simple for you to understand, - you can't ask a jailer to free you while threatening the jailer with violence immediately upon your release. Get it now? You can't have it both ways, - one or the other!

If Arabs of Gaza want freedom from blockade, all they have to do is reform their thinking and their actions. This is all. All they have to do is to accept Israel as a neighbor, Jews as rightful occupants of their own country, stop violence and be generally nice. Very simple. Otherwise, they get the harsh treatment. And you may complain all you want, - nobody cares, because your complains do not produce a solution to this conflict.
#14987246
pugsville wrote:Well you just wrong. The UN, the Interntal Court of Justice, teh Red cross and vast majority of countries agree that it is an occupation. (as Israel has at times, their position has never been consistent)

The British got legal opinion during the mandate, which told the mandate was a separate recognized contry with established borders.

You may disagree and have a different opinion but it is the over whemingly minority position that the bodies the exist to rule of these matters disagree with,.


I know what the majority of the world thinks of Israel holding the West bank. They call it occupation. So, what? The world does not have a legal mechanism to solve this problem, so the World can call it anything the world wants to call it. Is it an occupation? Perhaps…perhaps not. Who is to adjudicate this issue?

The world however agrees that it is much better to solve the problem diplomatically, which exactly what is being done. Please do not automatically accept one position over the other.

Israel, in its current approach, has a good case. Multiple offers have been made to the Arabs, - all rejected by the Arabs, and not even one substantive offer made to Israel from the Arabs. This is the game that is being played right now. This game will have a victor, just not today or tomorrow.

pugsville wrote:Most Jews did not care about Palestine. Very few tried to immigrate to Plasticine in 2,000 years. Jews leaving Europe vastly preferred to go to the Americas when they had a choice. In the late 1920 more jews were leaving Palestine than arriving.


You are inventing history here. The Jews have always lived in Judea or Palestine if you prefer. Always…uninterrupted, from the time they settled the land 4500 years ago. There have always been Jewish villages in the past 2000 years. Look up the published data.

Most immigration to Palestine happened in the past 200 years, - both Arabs and Jews came there. Again, look up the census available on the net! You have no idea where the Jews preferred to live. Do you have a study that asked that question? Some Jews preferred Canada, some America and some preferred Israel! You are simply generating here. Generalization are not an intelligent argument to have!

The fact is this, - in 1947 there were 1.2 million Arabs and 600,000 Jews in Palestine. The fact is this, - in 1947 the world decreed the establishment of a Jewish State. This is all you need to know.

pugsville wrote:...Make your mind up which argument you are running. Are you just illogical?


I gave you logic! Do you read?

I said, that Israel cannot be accused of negotiating in bad faith because Israel put on the table multiple peace offers and the Arabs walked away from all of them, while suggesting nothing in return, short of the demand that Israel simply cease to exist and the Jews pack up and leave. I know that the Arabs did not say this the way I said it, but their demand would lead to exactly the outcome as I said it.

Further, - I said that the 2-state solution was never really an objective goal of anybody. It was a leap-service to the naïve and gullible. Both Arabs and Israelis understood that. They played that game for the naïve and gullible.

This is not illogical and I am not illogical. The logic was this, - it is to put forward a solution that the parties in question can live with, while placating the world with a fugue leaf of a possibility of a settlement that the naïve and gullible have envisioned. It’s a game!

Israel can never agree to what the Arabs are demanding and the Arabs can never agree to the Israeli position, - so the 2-state solution was an approach as a way of showing the naïve and gullible world that the effort is being made.

Israeli proposals, in 1993, 2000, and 2006 were a way to show the world the intransigence of Arab’s position. Israelis analyzed that the Arabs would never agree, but Israelis still had to try. The Israeli proposals were genuine, as those proposals would have led to a compromise. It is just Israelis had no real hope of success here.

Arabs, with Arafat in the lead at the time and Abbas currently in office, had demonstrated their political impotence and overall desire to get rid of the Jews by any means possible. So, - no deal!

Do not accuse me of being illogical. It only seems that way to you, because you did not manage to follow the argument. Try again!

pugsville wrote:Where people lived thousands of years ago is of no matter when deciding such matters now, as a principle for determining borders is one of the stupidest imaginable, Is everyone to go back to where their ancestoprs where 2,000 years ago? really?


I agree. Past history is only one facet of an argument to look at. I am not saying that the history is the ONLY reason to Israel’s existence. Not at all.

While it is a fact that the Jews have always lived in Judea and never left the land, Israel’s existence came as a result of UN’s decision in 1947. Both the Arabs and the Jews can make the same argument, - both have lived in the land for a very long time, - the Jews lived there much longer, but it is not relevant to the discussion here. The relevant part is the UN’s decision and Israel’s ability to defend the land, - nothing else.

pugsville wrote:The Palestinians are the only ones facing an existential threat.


I disagree. Palestinian Arabs have many choices. They chose the misery that they are in right now. They could have chosen coexistence, but they chose a fight they cannot possible win. So, - they have no right to complain, and you must look at the totality of a history that happened over the past 70 years and not just pick and choose as you please.

pugsville wrote:Whats the alternative? The Two state solution id the only possible peaceful solution. Teh One state solution is unworkable in the long run.


There will not be a 2-state solution to this problem, ever. There will not be a 1-state solution either.

What is most likely to happen is that Jordan will assume the responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs, while Israel will allow the Arabs to stay where they are today. I can see that over many years, most Arabs will be persuaded to move, not kicked out.

pugsville wrote:It's the reverse. It;s the Israels seizing land by forces and pushing out the long established populations.


Really? You really want to have this childish argument? You say it is my toy and I say no, - it is mine! In the end, I would win, because I hold a bigger stick. Do you really want to indulge in this childish game?

The Jews IS a long established population!

Look, - the Israelis have a right to be exactly where they are and so do the Arabs. The land in question is disputed, as this land was never a part of any recognized country. So, - the dispute must be solved either diplomatically or in a direct combat.

I think that you should recognize that Israel is not flexing the muscle as much as Israel can. Any other country in Israel’s position would have gone to a total war and would win and put an end to this. There are ample examples in recent history for this, - look at what happened to Tamils in Sri Lanka. Israel does not want to eradicate the Arabs from Judea. Israel wants to find an accommodation.

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