Long-forgotten, doomed-for-failure "Two States Solution" - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14981382
Hi,

My name is Ron. I am new here.

As I see it, this long-forgotten notion of a de-militarized, Jewish-State-accepting Palestinian state is an obvious failure that still resonates through the halls of every major decision-making party / mediator.

As I see it, peace did not stand a chance in the first place.

Since the establishment of the terrorist movement, Hamas, and the world's subsequent denial of it being what it has always been - a terror organization, peace was doomed for failure.

Just imagine how it would have turned out, if all Western countries had made sure to declare this rogue entity a barrier for peace and stability, right from the get-go.

No political / financial ties. Total US ban on financial assets and money transferring. No co-operation, non-whatsoever with any entity, including the Palestinian Authority -- total isolation and denial of the right to hold outspoken declarations of the annihilation of the State of Israel.

Where would we be now?

The PA would have its A, B and C territories. It would be totally independent. The whole region would flourish and there would be neighborly co-operation on geographical and financial endeavors, cementing the Middle East as a power of goodness, success and freedom.

But, as we all know, the world has always been and will forever be blind as to how cruel they are, even with their own citizens.

Hamas has no regard for human rights, no qualms about killing people, practically just for the fun of it. Hamas uses children as human shield and bombs its own life-line - border-crossings that provide food and medicine for a decaying population, ripped off of any hope for a better future.

In my opinion, Hamas is far more detrimental for the Palestinians than it is for Israel. They would have long-ago had a state of their own.


THE WORLD IS TO BLAME -


Russia / Muslim countries / myopic Western countries - they're all to blame! If Israel had been bluffing this whole time, not willing to co-operate with peace / giving territories, IT would have been the one isolated and backed into a corner that would have coerced it to negotiate.

Israeli public opinion / election results would have made it impossible for our leaders to perpetuate violence and death.

Instead, we have a potential terror base enveloping Israel on all sides. Hamas would no-doubt seize power of newly-given territories, as it did in 2007, while throwing PA officers off rooftops into their death.

Neither Israel nor the PA is to blame. THE WORLD IS TO BLAME!
#14981388
MyRon wrote:In my opinion, Hamas is far more detrimental for the Palestinians than it is for Israel. They would have long-ago had a state of their own.


Violence was a strategic blunder. If they went the passive resistance route there wouldn't be an ethno-apartheid Israeli state today.


One argument is that, by its nature, indiscriminate violence against civilians cannot effectively coerce, and thus does not work. Even in war, the side that resorts to terrorizing civilians first is most likely to lose, and targeting civilians rarely extracts meaningful concessions. Targeting civilians is a bad strategy because it is slow, radicalizes populations against peace and tends to be perpetrated mostly during long wars of attrition by desperate states.

For opposition groups in particular, engaging in violence against civilians communicates that they have uncompromising maximalist objectives: whatever the opposition group’s strategic objectives might be, once they kill, the greater population will assume that the group wants to destroy their way of life. This turns public sentiment against any legitimate concerns the group, or a broader movement, may have had and makes the government less likely to make concessions. With public backlash extended against moderates and radicals alike, even moderates in the broader movement become alienated. In other words, terrorism is polarizing. In contrast, non-violent movements don’t polarize the public against their requests, and are more likely to succeed in gaining policy concessions from governments.

If indiscriminate violence is so ineffective for gaining concessions from governments, then why do resistance groups still use it? One answer is to shift the question: what is violence effective for? The answer to that depends on what groups’ real goals are, and this is key for determining how to stop them. Terrorism may not be useful for coercing a government to capitulate to policy demands, but that may not be the terrorist group’s aim. While polarizing society may make it harder to get the government to make policy concessions, it may help them to achieve other goals: maintaining power, attracting supporters, and gaining notoriety.

One way terrorism can be effective is called spoiling. Spoiling refers to attacks that derail peace talks and other forms of cooperation. Groups spoil when they feel excluded, when they benefit from conflict, or when they are more extreme than a moderate alternative and want to radicalize the opposition. In this case, terrorism can be effective precisely because it is so polarizing. While these minority-led attacks can make it harder for the overall movement to get concessions directly, they benefit the more extreme minority by preventing agreements that they find unacceptable and keeping them from being sidelined in a more moderate agreement. Terrorism can also empower extremist groups: continuation of the conflict gives the extremists a platform. Moreover, by using violence, they often provoke a backlash by the government and general population that alienates or angers the larger movement, driving up support for the radical group. For example, Hamas used attacks to derail any peace agreements, polarizing both Israelis and Palestinians. By provoking a response from Israel, threatened Palestinians saw Hamas as their defenders, thereby empowering extremists.
https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blo ... -they-want
#14981462
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Hamas is an acronym of the Arabic phrase حركة المقاومة الاسلامية or Harakat al-Muqāwama al-Islāmiyya, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement". The Arabic word 'hamas' (حماس) means "courage" or "zeal".[53] The Hamas covenant interprets its name to mean "strength and bravery".[54][55]


I always find it helpful to try and understand how people or movements perceive themselves. And in the context of this thread, they are the single barrier to peace in the Middle East. So, I guess that does take a measure of all of the above adjectives.
#14981660
MyRon wrote:But what boggles the mind is - just how gullible the international community can really be. Most European countries see it as legitimate resistance, pursuing independence, ridding its people from the claws of "occupation".


The International Community isn't gullible. Israel violated the 1948 agreement and every other UN approved agreement. Hence the International Community has been burnt way too often to ever trust the Kinesset.

The International Community is acting accordingly.

I mean you implied and @Zionist Nationalist just plain said he wants to send 3 Million innocent people into the Sea just because of "Israel must be totally 100% safe for all 100% of the time, so just kill 3 million Gazans".

Disgusting.

THE EXACT SAME THINKING HITLER WAS APPLYING WHEN HE SAID WE NEED BREATHING ROOM.
#14981776
colliric wrote:The International Community isn't gullible. Israel violated the 1948 agreement and every other UN approved agreement. Hence the International Community has been burnt way too often to ever trust the Kinesset.

The International Community is acting accordingly.


Are you kidding me?

There have been HUNDREDS of "UN resolutions" condemning Israel, many of which are resolutions that have do with human rights.

How many have there been condemning Syria? Russia (invading Ukraine, bashing homosexual people, etc.)? Sudan, Iran...?

The list goes on.

UN = United Minions

There are 57 Muslim member states in the United Minions, most of which have abhorrent human right laws - dictatorships that preach Israel about "right" or "wrong".

As for European countries - Anti-Semitism is almost as old as history (and STILL rampant in Europe).

So, don't give me UN resolutions as indication of how "immoral" Israel is.

The 1948 UN resolution called for the division of Israel and Palestine - two states. Arab countries declared war, warning Palestinians to keep away, since they were going to annihilate the Jews. Guess what? - Israel won!

So, don't give me any bullsh!t about history.

As for what Zionist Nationalist said - I can't control him, anymore than I can control you (nor would I want to).

The only thing I can do is EDUCATE you, so that you would have more information and better understanding of how it really is around here.

(Note: My main post did not mention the UN. It is not a body I respect. It is hypocritical, run by thugs (rogue "leaders" of rogue states, i.e. no human rights, none whatsoever))

Please, educate yourself, when engaging in serious debate.

<3
#14981780
Zionist Nationalist wrote:I didnt said the gazans should be thrown to the sea I said we need to let them the opportunity to immigrate

I suggest sending them to Sweden or Germany

Isn't that the same as Hitler? He didn't want the Jews thrown into the sea, he wanted them to emigrate to Palestine. It was only when he met with the Mufti of Jerusalem that he abandoned his Zionism and anti Semitism, started to respect the "rights" of the Palestinians and the invitations for Waansee were sent out.
#14981804
Isn't that the same as Hitler?

maybe I dont really care.


Rich wrote:He didn't want the Jews thrown into the sea, he wanted them to emigrate to Palestine. It was only when he met with the Mufti of Jerusalem that he abandoned his Zionism and anti Semitism, started to respect the "rights" of the Palestinians and the invitations for Waansee were sent out.

The European globalists seem to love them so much why dont they just take them? its a win win for both sides
#14981905
The OP is ahistorical dogshit.

Hamas came to be as a resistance org created directly because of brutal Israeli actions as well as spawned by Israel itself at its very beginning, to counter socialist resistant orgs like the PFLP.

Hamas came to be in the 1980s, decades after Israel's ethnic cleansing and occupation of Palestine which began in the 1940s.

Also, this notion that Hamas are any threat whatsoever to Israel's military might is also dumb as all shit, considering the former are living inside a concentration camp and could be annihilated entirely if Israel decides to show us on whatever day, the extent of its savagery.
#14983881
skinster wrote:Hamas came to be as a resistance org created directly because of brutal Israeli actions


Where do you get this? Hamas is not a response to “brutal Israeli actions”. Hamas is a response to Israel’s existence! Hamas says so! Why don’t you simply repeat what Hamas is already saying? Do not invent things! Hamas is ON RECORD stating that Hamas wants to get rid of Israel, period! Hamas is not responding to Israeli actions at all. Israel does not have to do ANYTHING and Hamas still is not happy. GET IT?

skinster wrote:…as well as spawned by Israel itself at its very beginning, to counter socialist resistant orgs like the PFLP.


What? Where do you get this? Hamas is a creature of Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas says so! Why don’t you simply repeat what Hamas is already saying? Do not invent things!

Hamas is ON RECORD stating that Hamas Hamas was established in 1987, and has its origins in Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood movement, which had been active in the Gaza Strip since the 1950's and gained influence through a network of mosques and various charitable and social organizations. In the 1980's the Brotherhood emerged as a powerful political factor, challenging the influence of the PLO, and in 1987 adopted a more nationalist and activist line under the name of Hamas. GET IT?

Hamas’s counter to PFLP was in a fact that PLFP was too timid. GET IT?

I have one word for you, - EDUCATION! Do yourself a favor, get some education, otherwise you appear less then intelligent, and all can see it. Not smart! Do you really want to be known as a simpleton around here?

skinster wrote:Hamas came to be in the 1980s, decades after Israel's ethnic cleansing and occupation of Palestine which began in the 1940s.


Where do you get this? What occupation? British-mandated Palestine was partitioned, - you do know that, right? Do you understand what partition is all about, - you know, - kind of like ‘Jews to the left and the Arabs to the right’ as it were…?

How many times do you need to be told that partition envisioned a coexistence of two ethnic groups, - the Muslims and the Jews. That planned coexistence was confronted by the Muslim Arabs in a form of an all-out war against Israel in 1948. How many times do you need to be told that the outcome of that war was that the Arabs lost and the Jews won?

The Arabs associated with Hamas still contest the result of that war, - they contest it today! How many times do you need to be told that Hamas views all Israel as an occupied Arab land, in contradiction to the original partition by UN in 1948.

So, - yes, - according to Hamas Israel occupies Arab land, but by anyone else’s standards Israel does not occupy the land in question. Certainly, UN has no problem with Israel since Israel is a UN member.

Be specific! Are you objecting to Israel’s existence or you are objecting to some of the land that Israel is holding right now in a dispute with Palestinian Arabs? Be specific!

Stop that ‘ethnic cleansing’ nonsense, - if you ask a Jew, you’d be told that it is the Arabs who invaded Judea and pushed the Jews out. So, all are guilty of asserting themselves in the name of liberation. You must find a better argument.

I will tell you that Israelis will never leave their ancestral land, and at best, the Arabs may get an Area A, some (very few) parts of Area B and Gaza strip, - at best. Most likely outcome is a compensation deal plus land in a distant future. The Jews will never leave. There is more than enough land to accommodate all the Arabs elsewhere.

The only possible exception to this might be if the Arabs give up belligerence and, over many years, demonstrate that they can live together with the Jews. So far, such an outcome is a complete impossibility.

So, - a totally demilitarized Palestinian state on the land designated by Israel might come to be. This is not an ‘aggression’ or ‘ethnic cleansing’, - this is a response to an original and on-going refusal by the Arabs to deal in good faith with Israel. This is what ‘you’ get when 'your' actions are less then intelligent, - as you should be familiar with this concept, - like you… with all of you posts here, - less then intelligent!

Palestinians have not done anything smart, - ever!

skinster wrote:Also, this notion that Hamas are any threat whatsoever to Israel's military might is also dumb as all shit, considering the former are living inside a concentration camp and could be annihilated entirely if Israel decides to show us on whatever day, the extent of its savagery.


LOL! You got something right! Israel is not afraid of Hamas. True! Don’t cry a river here, - nobody cares! Tell me, - if Hamas is so weak, why fight Israel?

Let me enlighten you, - Hamas is not a threat to Israel in an existential sense. Hamas is a threat to Israel in a tactical sense, like an annoyance. That annoyance may become a serious problem if not watched carefully, like cancer. Further, - no Israeli Government, ever, want to contemplate a total war in Gaza, - that would mean death to too many people. So, Israel fights small conflicts only and waits for the better times when Arabs in Gaza, and in general, smarten up. GET IT?
Last edited by Metoo on 29 Jan 2019 17:30, edited 1 time in total.
#14983927
skinster wrote:Unhinged zionist alert.

"Hamas is a danger! No Hamas isn't! Where did you get that?!" :lol:


Zionist... Yes, you might say that, no problem.

Sorry, dear skinster, I can't dumb it down for you any more than I already have.

Clearly your reading comprehension is low or your IQ is below average. Either way, I am sorry... I can't make my posts any clearer. Good luck out there...
#14984286
Israel has always wanted the entirety of the land. Zionist leaders of the past were more honest than the way some of them pretend today, even though some of them continue to sound savage AF.

Anyone who thinks a two-state solution can still exist should read The Two State Delusion, even if it is a bit gross and zionist-y in part.

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