Lebanese Child Ali Maatouk laid to rest after he was killed by an Israeli bomb - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

Moderator: PoFo Middle-East Mods

Forum rules: No one-line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum moderated in English, so please post in English only. Thank you.
#15026929
@Palmyrene
That's what war is like.
Which is why we should get to the peace part as fast as possible. :lol:



Listen kid, you don't seem to understand what I said last time.
I know that Israel killed Lebanese people, and I know we killed Israeli people. That doesn't mean we can't have peace.
In the context of the middle east, Israel is still Lebanon's natural ally since both Israel and Lebanon are minority countries, as was considered to be the case by president Bashir Jmail, and president Emil Lahoud, and many other leaders in Lebanon and many more Lebanese people.

That doesn't mean we agree with everything the Israeli government does, But we also don't disagree with everything either.



You want us to hate the Israelis and think that everyone in the middle east has the same perspective as your people do, We don't.
The long war against occupation and the regular atrocities committed under military occupation such as massacres, rapes at checkpoints, torture by intelligence agents, etc wasn't fought against Israel in Lebanon, it was fought against the Syrian government.
The historic hostilities and enemies of the various groups in Lebanon aren't in Israel, they're in Syria and the wider Arab world.


Israel, as it stands at the moment, is a country we're officially at war with, true; But everyone in Lebanon, with minor exceptions, wants peace, To the point that the prime minister will discuss the topic, and the sooner we start peace negotiations and demarcation at the border the better for both Lebanon and Israel alike.

The only people who don't want peace are Hezbollah members since they benefit from the war, but everyone in Lebanon is also starting to hate those as Hezbollah is turning more and more into just a bunch of gangs who want to take over by force; So you probably shouldn't take their standing as your base since those are making tons of enemies right now and they'll soon be nothing more than a fringe group that will be rooted out.




Trying to constantly antagonize me on the topic won't change my mind nor will change the minds of most people in Lebanon.
Neither I, nor we, are blind; We see the big picture and we all are fully aware of who our true enemies are and what is the true existential threat Lebanese people face, and it's not Israel.
#15026939
anasawad wrote:@Palmyrene
That's what war is like.
Which is why we should get to the peace part as fast as possible. :lol:



Listen kid, you don't seem to understand what I said last time.
I know that Israel killed Lebanese people, and I know we killed Israeli people. That doesn't mean we can't have peace.
In the context of the middle east, Israel is still Lebanon's natural ally since both Israel and Lebanon are minority countries, as was considered to be the case by president Bashir Jmail, and president Emil Lahoud, and many other leaders in Lebanon and many more Lebanese people.

That doesn't mean we agree with everything the Israeli government does, But we also don't disagree with everything either.



You want us to hate the Israelis and think that everyone in the middle east has the same perspective as your people do, We don't.
The long war against occupation and the regular atrocities committed under military occupation such as massacres, rapes at checkpoints, torture by intelligence agents, etc wasn't fought against Israel in Lebanon, it was fought against the Syrian government.
The historic hostilities and enemies of the various groups in Lebanon aren't in Israel, they're in Syria and the wider Arab world.


Israel, as it stands at the moment, is a country we're officially at war with, true; But everyone in Lebanon, with minor exceptions, wants peace, To the point that the prime minister will discuss the topic, and the sooner we start peace negotiations and demarcation at the border the better for both Lebanon and Israel alike.

The only people who don't want peace are Hezbollah members since they benefit from the war, but everyone in Lebanon is also starting to hate those as Hezbollah is turning more and more into just a bunch of gangs who want to take over by force; So you probably shouldn't take their standing as your base since those are making tons of enemies right now and they'll soon be nothing more than a fringe group that will be rooted out.




Trying to constantly antagonize me on the topic won't change my mind nor will change the minds of most people in Lebanon.
Neither I, nor we, are blind; We see the big picture and we all are fully aware of who our true enemies are and what is the true existential threat Lebanese people face, and it's not Israel.


I didn't read everything but I'm not trying antagonize.

You are the only Lebanese person on this forum so I wanted your opinion.
#15026954
@Palmyrene
The reason why cluster bombs hit civilian areas is that Hezbollah builds bunkers in civilian areas.
They literally use civilians as human shields. (you can refer to the various books published by Hezbollah and the various speeches on the "sacrifice for the greater cause" to see where this mentality comes from and is based on)

This is one of the main reason why Hezbollah was expelled from Baalbek and from the various areas along the Baalbek-Hermel and Baalbek-Zahleh lines during the 2012-2015 period.
Their infrastructure is developed in some southern areas and the Dahieh, but is barely established in the Beqa' which is why they were planning to expand it following the 2006 war.
If you went to Baalbek in 2011, you'd have seen that Hezbollah was trying to build checkpoints and barracks in the inner city, specifically near the court and in the old market.

If they weren't removed by force, then those would've been built in Baalbek and in times of war the inner city would've been bombed, something that no one accepted and as such it was prevented.



Is it bad that a child died? Yes. And to prevent such things from occurring in the future, the south needs to start standing up to the Hezbollah gangs and tell them to fuck off and stop building military infrastructure in civilian areas.
If they want war, then they should man up and stand on their own instead of hiding behind civilians.

Heck, this is one of the reasons that just last year when there were some brief conflict between Amal movement and the Baalbek tribes on one hand and Hezbollah on the other hand (which I'm sure you must have heard of it, that one starting in one hand about memorializing a Syrian officer in Dahieh and on the other hand about Noah Zaaiter), the conflict was highly limited and no one could do anything against Hezbollah because the Hezbollah militia responsible constantly tried to drag things into the north market in Al-Dahieh. They were trying to drag it into the market so whenever anyone dies in the crossfire, their media machine will start running to claim that we're just going in there and killing civilians and how we're the bad guys.


Funny enough, I used to view these things (about Civilian casualties) in the exact way you did until this happened last year which is why I started to look at all these media items, especially regarding Palestine and Gaza, in a much more critical manner. Having the same tactic used against your own can be a huge wake-up call.
#15026957
anasawad wrote:@Palmyrene
The reason why cluster bombs hit civilian areas is that Hezbollah builds bunkers in civilian areas.
They literally use civilians as human shields. (you can refer to the various books published by Hezbollah and the various speeches on the "sacrifice for the greater cause" to see where this mentality comes from and is based on)

This is one of the main reason why Hezbollah was expelled from Baalbek and from the various areas along the Baalbek-Hermel and Baalbek-Zahleh lines during the 2012-2015 period.
Their infrastructure is developed in some southern areas and the Dahieh, but is barely established in the Beqa' which is why they were planning to expand it following the 2006 war.
If you went to Baalbek in 2011, you'd have seen that Hezbollah was trying to build checkpoints and barracks in the inner city, specifically near the court and in the old market.

If they weren't removed by force, then those would've been built in Baalbek and in times of war the inner city would've been bombed in times of war, something that no one accepted and as such it was prevented.



Is it bad that a child died? Yes. And to prevent such things from occurring in the future, the south needs to start standing up to the Hezbollah gangs and tell them to fuck off and stop building military infrastructure in civilian areas.
If they want war, then they should man up and stand on their own instead of hiding behind civilians.

Heck, this is one of the reasons that just last year when there were some brief conflict between Amal movement and the Baalbek tribes on one hand and Hezbollah on the other hand (which I'm sure you must have heard of it, that one starting in one hand about memorializing a Syrian officer in Dahieh and on the other hand about Noah Zaaiter), the conflict was highly limited and no one could do anything against Hezbollah because to the Hezbollah militia that was responsible constantly tried to drag things into the north market in Al-Dahieh. They were trying to drag it into the market so whenever anyone dies in the crossfire, their media machine will start running to claim that we're just going in there and killing civilians and how we're the bad guys.


Funny enough, I used to view these things (about Civilian casualties) in the exact way you did until this happened last year which is why I started to look at all these media items, especially regarding Palestine and Gaza, in a much more critical manner. Having the same tactic used against your own can be a huge wake-up call.


I mean Israel also uses human shields frequently so it's not like Hezbollah is particularly bad.

And the key difference between you and me is that I'm ideologically predisposed to oppose every faction in the Middle East and I'm a politically active and independent agent.

You can just sit back and watch. You yourself have no political power even if you are a part of a clan. Given that the clan operates hierarchially, you know your place and cannot move beyond your current position.

You can only say what should happen. I can say what will happen.
#15026959
:lol: :lol: :lol:
@Palmyrene
Hierarchies aren't all caste systems, in fact, the overwhelming majority are not. There is a thing called fluidity and flexibility.

We don't have a caste system, nor does the overwhelming majority of tribes.
Most clans and tribes operate under layers of representation, and anyone can work to build hem\her self up in rank.
#15026966
anasawad wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:
@Palmyrene
Hierarchies aren't all caste systems, in fact, the overwhelming majority are not. There is a thing called fluidity and flexibility.

We don't have a caste system, nor does the overwhelming majority of tribes.
Most clans and tribes operate under layers of representation, and anyone can work to build hem\her self up in rank.


Yet there are fixed roles correct? Roles that must be maintained whether they are necessary or not and whether the person filling the role fulfills it. Furthermore, those in lower ranks are subservient to those in higher ranks. If it doesn't have fixed roles or linear subservience, it isn't a hierarchy.

The point is that you know the amount of power specific positions in the hierarchy have and you are self aware of your own place within it. Furthermore you know how much effort would be required to attempt to gain political power. And you reject said power. If it was so easy, you would've done it by now.

My instincts tells me that, at a certain level, there is a limit to how high you can go because, at a certain point, genetics matters alot more than merit does and the positions you could have is limited to your genes. It's either that or it's way too much undesirable work to get to that power.
#15026975
@Palmyrene
Yet there are fixed roles correct? Roles that must be maintained whether they are necessary or not and whether the person filling the role fulfills it.

:|
Roles being fixed doesn't mean the people who fill them are fixed.
The role of a president or a CEO is fixed, there will always be a president, doesn't mean the same guy will always be president.

Furthermore, those in lower ranks are subservient to those in higher ranks. If it doesn't have fixed roles or linear subservience, it isn't a hierarchy.

And here we go with the propaganda speak again.

1- There are laws that binds everyone.
2- The people in the higher ranks are filling these ranks because they were elected or chosen to be there, they weren't just born to fill certain specific ranks. We're not living in an absolute feudalist monarchy.

The point is that you know the amount of power specific positions in the hierarchy have and you are self aware of your own place within it.

And if I wanted more power, I can just work for it.

Furthermore you know how much effort would be required to attempt to gain political power.

Just like everything else, work is required to get it.

And you reject said power.

Power in what?
Who said I reject the current structure in the Baalbek clans?

If it was so easy, you would've done it by now.

1- Nothing is easy to get. That's life in general, not just political power.
2- No, actually, I wouldn't have. I could've pursued a high ranking position in the military or in politics, but I didn't. I have my own dreams and pursuits.
Not everyone wants to hold leadership positions. I know, shocking.

My instincts tells me that, at a certain level, there is a limit to how high you can go because, at a certain point, genetics matters alot more than merit does and the positions you could have is limited to your genes

:eh:
What the hell are you on about?
There is no limit based on genes, what you think we live in the middle ages?

It's either that or it's way too much undesirable work to get to that power.

Ofcourse it's too much fucking work.
You think that influence and power and high ranks are easy to get? It requires decades of work and tons of sacrifices.
Most people don't want or are not willing to put the effort into it Which is why very few are at those positions.

To reach such positions, you need to put everything in your life on hold and work and compete for decades with time tables of 70+ hours a week to be able to get to such positions and even then the competition is so intense and vicious that you can be outcompeted and lose your position even when you're "on top".

If it's easy, everyone would've done it.
And to expect it to be easy is immature at best.
#15026977
Palmyrene wrote:So? Children have to be bombed?


How obsessed are you against Israel that you imply that an explosive device from 2006 exploding in 2019 is "bombing children" ?

It is Hezbollah (and Hamas) that have obscured the difference between civilian and military targets. They shoot rockets with explosive heads into Israel and just hope Israelis will die, military or civilian, they don't care. Israel bombs sites from where rockets are fired against its people and lo and behold, that site is among the civilian population.

And then they (and you) come whining in the West and showing pictures of injured and dead children. (that is skinster's main hobby also).

Edited for grammar
Last edited by Ter on 17 Aug 2019 05:26, edited 1 time in total.
#15026980
anasawad wrote:@Palmyrene
:|
Roles being fixed doesn't mean the people who fill them are fixed.
The role of a president or a CEO is fixed, there will always be a president, doesn't mean the same guy will always be president.


My point is that you can't claim to be flexible while having fixed roles.

If you have fixed roles that means that people conform to the whims of the hierarchy; the hierarchy does not conform to the whims of people. Thus, it is not flexible.

And here we go with the propaganda speak again.


I don't think you know what propaganda is. This is me explaining my ideology and opposition to hierarchy. If you call this "propaganda" then you're speaking propaganda too.

And let's not forget this is a political forum. Discussing our ideologies is the point.

1- There are laws that binds everyone.
2- The people in the higher ranks are filling these ranks because they were elected or chosen to be there, they weren't just born to fill certain specific ranks. We're not living in an absolute feudalist monarchy.


So? That doesn't change the fact that those on the lower ranks are subservient to the higher ranks. If they weren't, they wouldn't be called "lower ranks" or "higher ranks". Literally nothing you said here challenges my point.

And you've just said earlier in another conversation that princes rule the top of the hierarchies and they are not democratically elected by the people. Neither are the people in the middle ranks who are voted on by the shiekhs I believe.

And none of these representatives are immediately recallable and I'm pretty sure other influencers like wealth or social standing determine power as well so it's more akin to a conservative liberal democracy than a meritocracy.

And if I wanted more power, I can just work for it.


You would've done it by this point or at least gotten enough power to influence things.

Just like everything else, work is required to get it.


Read in context.

Power in what?
Who said I reject the current structure in the Baalbek clans?


See? This is why you read the whole thing. I never said that. I said you reject political power in your own clan.

1- Nothing is easy to get. That's life in general, not just political power.
2- No, actually, I wouldn't have. I could've pursued a high ranking position in the military or in politics, but I didn't. I have my own dreams and pursuits.
Not everyone wants to hold leadership positions. I know, shocking.


Not leadership positions but merely substantial power in your clan. You know, just enough to move things in the orientation you want.

If you cared this much about politics you would've went into it if it was that easy just to get into a position with some influence. If you didn't then you either don't want to get into politics and have no idea what exactly is required to get to the higher levels of tribes or you're hiding information.

:eh:
What the hell are you on about?
There is no limit based on genes, what you think we live in the middle ages?


You did say it relies on kinship and the princes aren't elected.

Ofcourse it's too much fucking work.
You think that influence and power and high ranks are easy to get? It requires decades of work and tons of sacrifices.
Most people don't want or are not willing to put the effort into it Which is why very few are at those positions.

To reach such positions, you need to put everything in your life on hold and work and compete for decades with time tables of 70+ hours a week to be able to get to such positions and even then the competition is so intense and vicious that you can be outcompeted and lose your position even when you're "on top".

If it's easy, everyone would've done it.
And to expect it to be easy is immature at best.


1. I highly doubt that's the reason why so little people are in those positions.

2. Please describe exactly what is required to reach a significant position in your clan.
#15026981
Ter wrote:How obsessed are you against Israel that you imply that an explosive device from 2006 exploding in 2019 is "bombing children" ?


I still think US mines in Iraq from the 2000s are the US government's fault so it's not an Israel specific thing.

Remember I'm an anarchist. I'm like, 100 times more consistent than you are.

It is Hezbollah (and Hamas) that have obscured the difference between civilian and military targets. They shoot rockets with explosive heads into Israel and just hope Israelis will die, military or civilian, they don't care. Israel bombs sites from where rockets are fired against its people and lo and behold, that site is among the civilian population.

And then they (and you) come whining in the West and showing pictures about injured and dead children. (that is skinster's main hobby also).


This is basically just whataboutism. Israel irresponsibly plants a mine that blows up a child because they don't care and you bring up Hezbollah. Don't worry. Both of them will be gone soon enough. Rest easy.

Idk why you even defend Israel so ardently. It's not like Israel cares about your support nor does it even have interests in protecting the Jewish population given how it treats non-Ashkenazi Jews. Why are you attaching your identity to a state? That's so dumb.
#15026984
[quote="Palmyrene"]I'm like, 100 times more consistent than you are.[/quote]
:lol: :lol:

[quote="Palmyrene"]This is basically just whataboutism. Israel irresponsibly plants a mine that blows up a child because they don't care and you bring up Hezbollah.[/quote]
This is not whataboutism. Hezbollah is the reason all of these tragedies happened when they cowardly started a war against Israel in 2006.

[quote="Palmyrene"]Idk why you even defend Israel so ardently. It's not like Israel cares about your support nor does it even have interests in protecting the Jewish population given how it treats non-Ashkenazi Jews. Why are you attaching your identity to a state? That's so dumb.[/quote]
According to skinster, I am being paid to defend Israel. Somebody must have cashed the cheques, damn ! lol.

Seriously; I visited the place several times, I have friends there and they are very nice people.
Also, imagine this forum with everyone being anti-Zionist ? That would be terribly boring, with very short threads.

Also; my identity is not linked to any state. My parents came from countries A and B, I was born in country C as a refugee and I lived and worked in countries D and E. My wife was born in country E but her ancestors came from country F. I have two children living in country C and two living in country E.

Also, funny : I cannot speak the mother tongue of either of my parents and my children in country E cannot speak my mother tongue.
#15026988
@Palmyrene
My point is that you can't claim to be flexible while having fixed roles.

If you have fixed roles that means that people conform to the whims of the hierarchy; the hierarchy does not conform to the whims of people. Thus, it is not flexible.

Just read up on what people mean when they say a flexible or fluid hierarchy.

So? That doesn't change the fact that those on the lower ranks are subservient to the higher ranks. If they weren't, they wouldn't be called "lower ranks" or "higher ranks". Literally nothing you said here challenges my point.

That, however, does not mean absolute power, or as you said, on the whims of the higher ranks.

And you've just said earlier in another conversation that princes rule the top of the hierarchies and they are not democratically elected by the people. Neither are the people in the middle ranks who are voted on by the shiekhs I believe.

Tribes in the greater middle east operate under layers of representative elections under a decentralized structure with significant autonomy to each unit.
Princes and Princesses are part of dynasties. Dynasties are elected to rule by a council, and are replaced if they failed to fulfill their duties.
Each unit elect a leader, and the collective of leaders of each layer elect leaders to the layer above them until it reaches the final layer which is where a dynasty is elected as an entity rather than individuals.
A prince doesn't hold power in and of himself in a tribe, the dynasty holds power, and it holds power purely because it was given that power by the council.

And none of these representatives are immediately recallable and I'm pretty sure other influencers like wealth or social standing determine power as well so it's more akin to a conservative liberal democracy than a meritocracy.

If one failed to fulfill his\her duties, then they're removed and replaced.
Wealth doesn't hold any role in clans and tribes since unitary communal ownership is the standard. Meaning those who operate in the frame of their tribe don't own wealth, they just manage it for the benefit of their clan which itself operates in its own benefit and the benefit of the wider tribe.

A billionaire tribesman is someone who doesn't own his wealth but rather managing his\her clan's wealth.
Their high living standards (i.e. that of a billionaire or a millionaire) is part of the reward for their position and it's dependent on how much return they generate.

Social standing on the other hand is an entirely different topic, and since political power in a representative system is dependent on social influence, then your standing in society is an important factor.
It is a meritocratic since you need to work for social influence, you're not born with it.

You would've done it by this point or at least gotten enough power to influence things.

Why?

Why would I give up the comfy family life I work to build and maintain, and pursue political power instead?

See? This is why you read the whole thing. I never said that. I said you reject political power in your own clan.

When did I ever say that? :eh: :eh:

So not pursuing political power now means that I can't pursue it or that I want to abolish the structure completely?

Are you listening to yourself man?

Not leadership positions but merely substantial power in your clan. You know, just enough to move things in the orientation you want.

I already do that with my vote.

Clans aren't big or anything, you do realize that right? A clan is the smallest construction unit in a tribe.
And the Baalbek clans are far away from the center so we've significant autonomy and as such votes have huge influence.

If you cared this much about politics you would've went into it if it was that easy just to get into a position with some influence.

Who the fuck said it's easy to get influence or high ranking positions? It requires tons of work and effort.

If you didn't then you either don't want to get into politics and have no idea what exactly is required to get to the higher levels of tribes or you're hiding information.

:knife: :knife:
There are many ways to get into high ranking positions and I'm fully aware of them. I simply have my own pursuits that I'm working to build.
Why the fuck would I spend years working in things I don't like, holding responsibilities I don't want to hold, only to get political power to push the same policies we already have in place?


You did say it relies on kinship and the princes aren't elected.

A tribe is based on kinship.
You, as a foreigner, are not allowed to hold positions of power in my tribe because you're not of kin. You need to be a member of the tribe to be able to pursue a political career in it, just like you need to be a citizen of a nation to be able to pursue a political career in it.
Is this really hard to understand?

And dynasties are elected. DYNASTIES.

1. I highly doubt that's the reason why so little people are in those positions.

It is.

2. Please describe exactly what is required to reach a significant position in your clan.

There are many ways.
You can either pursue a career in the defense forces, The court, politics by simply being part of campaigns and movements (i.e. organizing) and pushing for new policies and solutions, or economics by managing businesses owned by the clan and growing in them and expanding them.

I just realized that all our previous conversation is gone for nothing since you didn't even comprehend any of what I said.
A clan is the smallest construction unit of a tribe. A clan leader is elected directly by members of the clan.

In my tribe, The Hazzar tribe, each group of clans are a branch which the leaders of all the clans elect the leader of our branch (Baalbek clans are just a branch, and a mixed one that is), branches are grouped into bloodlines, bloodlines are groups into sub-tribes (regular tribes generally), and those are groups under one umbrella tribe, i.e. the Hazzar tribe. (The final level is where our dynasty, the Timurs, are elected by the council)
All organize with each other, but since we're far away from the center, then we have much higher autonomy and thus the power structure is far less complex.
#15026990
:lol: :lol:


It's true though.

This is not whataboutism. Hezbollah is the reason all of these tragedies happened when they cowardly started a war against Israel in 2006.


I'm not sure cowardly is the word you'd use for starting a war with Israel. The methods argueably are, but the action isn't. Generally I'd find the resistence of regular Palestinians to be far more impactful.

According to skinster, I am being paid to defend Israel. Somebody must have cashed the cheques, damn ! lol.


I don't care about what she thinks. Don't bring other people into it.

Seriously; I visited the place several times, I have friends there and they are very nice people.
Also, imagine this forum with everyone being anti-Zionist ? That would be terribly boring, with very short threads.


I've quite frankly seen the opposite. I would guess they're very racist people but they've treated even non-Arabs poorly like Chinese people.

And having friends in a particular country doesn't necessarily mean that you have to defend every action of said country. I have friends in all sorts of countries but I hate each and every one of their countries :)

The issue isn't anti-Zionism, it's just Islamophobia. Generally posters here support Israel due to just complete fear of Muslims. Those people tend to just blindly defend Israel every time. If you got rid of that behavior we could actually discuss Israel in an honest and intellectual way.

Instead we have to spend 1000 pages just trying to convince people like you that Israel is not the perfect little angel without flaws you think it is and that's pointless.

Also being pro-Israel doesn't necessarily make you Zionist.

Also; my identity is not linked to any state. My parents came from countries A and B, I was born in country C as a refugee and I lived and worked in countries D and E. My wife was born in country E but her ancestors came from country F. I have two children living in country C and two living in country E.

Also, funny : I cannot speak the mother tongue of either of my parents and my children in country E cannot speak my mother tongue.


Then there's no reason for you to defend Israel.
#15026991
anasawad wrote:@Palmyrene
Just read up on what people mean when they say a flexible or fluid hierarchy.


I have. The hierarchies aren't very fluid in hindsight.

Did you think I started out as an anarchist?

That, however, does not mean absolute power, or as you said, on the whims of the higher ranks.


I never said they held absolute power. I said that they are subservient to the higher ranks.

And generally hierarchies are very easy to manipulate into de facto absolute power. Especially decentralized ones.

Tribes in the greater middle east operate under layers of representative elections under a decentralized structure with significant autonomy to each unit.
Princes and Princesses are part of dynasties. Dynasties are elected to rule by a council, and are replaced if they failed to fulfill their duties.
Each unit elect a leader, and the collective of leaders of each layer elect leaders to the layer above them until it reaches the final layer which is where a dynasty is elected as an entity rather than individuals.
A prince doesn't hold power in and of himself in a tribe, the dynasty holds power, and it holds power purely because it was given that power by the council.


Define "unit". And who does the council consist of?

And collective power is still power. What are the duties that a dynasty must fulfill.

If one failed to fulfill his\her duties, then they're removed and replaced.


Who removes them?

Wealth doesn't hold any role in clans and tribes since unitary communal ownership is the standard. Meaning those who operate in the frame of their tribe don't own wealth, they just manage it for the benefit of their clan which itself operates in its own benefit and the benefit of the wider tribe.

A billionaire tribesman is someone who doesn't own his wealth but rather managing his\her clan's wealth.
Their high living standards (i.e. that of a billionaire or a millionaire) is part of the reward for their position and it's dependent on how much return they generate.

Social standing on the other hand is an entirely different topic, and since political power in a representative system is dependent on social influence, then your standing in society is an important factor.
It is a meritocratic since you need to work for social influence, you're not born with it.


Are you speaking for your own tribe or tribes as a whole? And what do you mean by manage it? Do you mean that tribes operate like corporations?

Why?

Why would I give up the comfy family life I work to build and maintain, and pursue political power instead?


Not absolute political power, just a good enough position to influence politics. That's all.

When did I ever say that? :eh: :eh:

So not pursuing political power now means that I can't pursue it or that I want to abolish the structure completely?


You didn't say that. I did. And I never said you wanted to abolish your clan. That's something you thought of yourself.

I already do that with my vote.

Clans aren't big or anything, you do realize that right? A clan is the smallest construction unit in a tribe.
And the Baalbek clans are far away from the center so we've significant autonomy and as such votes have huge influence.


Only on a local level do the votes matter.

Who the fuck said it's easy to get influence or high ranking positions? It requires tons of work and effort.


I never said it would be a high ranking position.

:knife: :knife:
There are many ways to get into high ranking positions and I'm fully aware of them. I simply have my own pursuits that I'm working to build.
Why the fuck would I spend years working in things I don't like, holding responsibilities I don't want to hold, only to get political power to push the same policies we already have in place?


So you agree with whatever policies your clan has?

A tribe is based on kinship.
You, as a foreigner, are not allowed to hold positions of power in my tribe because you're not of kin. You need to be a member of the tribe to be able to pursue a political career in it, just like you need to be a citizen of a nation to be able to pursue a political career in it.
Is this really hard to understand?


That's not the reason why I said that. My implication is that, at a certain level, kinship matters more than merit.

And dynasties are elected. DYNASTIES.


What's funny is that you emphasized dynasties.

There are many ways.
You can either pursue a career in the defense forces, The court, politics by simply being part of campaigns and movements (i.e. organizing) and pushing for new policies and solutions, or economics by managing businesses owned by the clan and growing in them and expanding them.


1. The state defense forces?

2. The actual Lebanese legal system?

I just realized that all our previous conversation is gone for nothing since you didn't even comprehend any of what I said.
A clan is the smallest construction unit of a tribe. A clan leader is elected directly by members of the clan.

In my tribe, The Hazzar tribe, each group of clans are a branch which the leaders of all the clans elect the leader of our branch (Baalbek clans are just a branch, and a mixed one that is), branches are grouped into bloodlines, bloodlines are groups into sub-tribes (regular tribes generally), and those are groups under one umbrella tribe, i.e. the Hazzar tribe. (The final level is where our dynasty, the Timurs, are elected by the council)
All organize with each other, but since we're far away from the center, then we have much higher autonomy and thus the power structure is far less complex.


You definitely didn't say this in our prior interaction.
#15026995
@Palmyrene
Define "unit".

The smallest unit is a clan. However each layer has its own. So basically whatever the construction unit of that layer is.

And who does the council consist of?

Representatives.
Elected ones.

It's in the term layers of representation.

And collective power is still power.

What now you're against power existing in general?
You do realize that could never happen right?

What are the duties that a dynasty must fulfill.

Primarily:
1- Organizing relations inside the tribe (basically diplomats so there isn't any conflicts between the various clans, branches, bloodlines, etc)
2- Foreign relations (with other states, nations, tribes).
3- Leading the army when at full war.

Though the key functions are the first two. (EDIT: Not as simple of a task as it may look from outside)

Who removes them?

The council that put them there.

Are you speaking for your own tribe or tribes as a whole?

My tribe.
You started by asking about my own tribe didn't you?

And what do you mean by manage it?

It means he\she manages the money and his\her reward is part of the generated returns.

Do you mean that tribes operate like corporations?

Not all of it. Groups more accurately.
Companies and businesses are established to generate profit for the treasuries and to fund all sorts of things.
This can be done on any level. A clan leader can expend some of the tax money to be invested in order to increase revenues. A branch leader (elected by a council of clan leaders), bloodline leader, etc.
Investments generally can and are done on any level.

That ofcourse doesn't mean private property doesn't exist, I have a private business. But if someone wants to skip the troubles at the early stages, he\she can just ask for investment or work in an already existing one.

The levels of this practice vary between tribes, but in my tribe, it's the norm, which is why if you looked at the Iranian, Central Asian, and eastern European and Russian economy, our investments are all over the place.

Not absolute political power, just a good enough position to influence politics. That's all.

Yea, but I don't need to. All the safety net programs I want are already in place.
Our semi-non-interventionists and inactivity are a good thing since it allows us to grow economically without having to constantly be in the way or having others in our way, so that's good.
And the inactivity of my tribe allows much greater autonomy and freedom for everyone (inside of it atleast) which is great.

And most tribes in the middle east are already in this non-interventionist out of the way trend this century and are focusing on growing economically. Though, the degrees of success varies.

Only on a local level do the votes matter.

Sure, but you're governed on a local level.
The queen doesn't intervene in our affairs.

This type of decentralization has existed with us for the past 3000 years or so, and there is a reason why it lasted so long.
When autonomy and freedom is guarenteed, no one will try to overthrow the system.
Now, sure, there is competition to who gets the higher ranks, simply because many want the prestige and rewards, but it's political competition, so not bad.

So you agree with whatever policies your clan has?

At the moment, yea, our way of life is good.
The safety nets are good.
The law is loose where it's essentially you're free to do whatever you want as long as you don't harm others.
(laws are made and applied locally (based on who's in the area), so this isn't done by one clan, it's by all the clans in the area)
And the lack of pressure from above and the distance from the center makes it even better.

That's not the reason why I said that. My implication is that, at a certain level, kinship matters more than merit.

On what level?
Dynasties you mean?
If a dynasty is elected to reign, then that dynasty has duties to fulfill (all its members have those duties) and it organizes among itself how to manage those duties.
They get extra perks (financially speaking) if they manage to please everyone and stay in power, and that's ok because that's what the job is.

1. The state defense forces?

The tribe's defense force. i.e. our army.

2. The actual Lebanese legal system?

The tribe's courts.
That big building in the inner city of Baalbek, that's the court where the council is.
You work your way up in there.

You definitely didn't say this in our prior interaction.

I did. I gave you the general structure of a tribe.
This time I just elaborated on my tribe specifically.
But all tribes are constructed in a similar structure and layers. With minor variations caused by the size of each tribe.
In my tribe, since it has had several mergers (with other tribes, it's a very old tribe), it has a couple of extra layers of councils and representatives.
#15026996
Palmyrene wrote:And having friends in a particular country doesn't necessarily mean that you have to defend every action of said country.

I do have serious criticisms but in discussions with fanatical people who want to see Israel destroyed, there is no way I can voice those, there would be no merit in that.

The propaganda being spewed here against Israel is so primitive, so naive, with wounded and dead children, only showing one side of the conflict, saying people get murdered, assassinated even if they were shooting AK47s, and so on. This has lead many non-obsessed posters to see how ridiculous that propaganda is and those anti-Zionist posters have lost all credibility. Except for their fellow zealot anti-Zionists.
Look at the opinion poll about Israel. About 50% of posters here do no longer buy into the propaganda.
#15026997
Ter wrote:I do have serious criticisms but in discussions with fanatical people who want to see Israel destroyed, there is no way I can voice those, there would be no merit in that.


I'm an anarchist so there's no compromising on that but most other posters are willing.

The propaganda being spewed here against Israel is so primitive, so naive, with wounded and dead children, only showing one side of the conflict, saying people get murdered, assassinated even if they were shooting AK47s, and so on. This has lead many non-obsessed posters to see how ridiculous that propaganda is and those anti-Zionist posters have lost all credibility. Except for their fellow zealot anti-Zionists.
Look at the opinion poll about Israel. About 50% of posters here do no longer buy into the propaganda.


Saying Israel is performing genocide (as in, the actual UN definition of genocide) isn't propaganda. Neither is saying that Israel treats non-Ashkenazi Jews poorly nor is saying Israel uses human shields nor is saying Israel is trying to cover up it's human rights abuses nor is saying Israel is doing anything else that I wrote in my thread about Israel news.

That isn't propaganda. That's fact and Israel has confessed to those facts several times. You're defending a country that already admitted to the crimes it committed. It's not possible to have a legitimate conversation about Israel if you keeo acting like this.

And the poll is not comparable to the amount of users here. Check the poll now.

If it ever came down to it, I would pick fascism ([…]

EU-BREXIT

I note that you posted a graph that actually back[…]

PS: Just quickly; the 'RA pretty much lost their '[…]

I don’t. You see, when my father and mother divo[…]