A different two-state solution - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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#15069337
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict might be resolved by the creation of two states: Israel, incorporating the Golan Heights and the West Bank, and a separate Palestinian Gaza.

Palestinians within the West Bank would become full citizens of Israel. Minus Gaza, Jews would still be a majority in the enlarged nation. However, to avoid the “right of return” being used as a demographic weapon, new immigrants to Israel would have to be divided equally between Jews and Palestinians, perhaps with a limit of 5,000 each per year. The admission of other foreign workers would be discouraged or banned to enable Palestinians to more fully integrate into the Israeli economy.

The walls and checkpoints in the West Bank would be gradually dismantled.

Gaza would be occupied, governed and demilitarized by forces and administrators from the United Nations and/or a moderate Arab nation such as Jordan for a period of ten years, after which the Gaza residents would be granted full, independent statehood.
#15069345
First time an Israeli PM got serious about peace with Palestine, he was shot. Next time, it was just a coma.

Politicians got the message.

So the slow motion ethnic cleansing will continue, just like it has for the previous 50 years.
#15070242
As an incentive for Hamas leaders in Gaza to cooperate, many would be granted non-security related administrative posts under the supervision of the occupying forces. In addition, Israel would hold in trust an area of land extending one kilometer into Israel along the entire Israel-Gaza border, which would be ceded to Gaza if the 10-year transition is completed peacefully.

My proposal recognizes “facts on the ground” in terms of Israeli settlements, eliminates the apartheid-like treatment of Palestinians and addresses Israeli concerns about Hamas threats from Gaza.
#15070264
@Robert Urbanek I give you a B- for creativity and an A- for daring.

Because the Arabs want it all, "from the river to the sea", and the Israelis no longer believe that "land for peace" is realistic.

If the Arabs claim that they would accept an Israel within the borders of pre-1967, why did they not accept the Jewish Homeland before 1967 ?
#15071444
Palestinians were okay with accepting 22% of their land under Arafat, despite being offered 45% in the Balfour Agreement.

But as it happens, Israel controls 100% of the land and pretends it cares about peace, while continuing to build over Palestinian homes and bodies in the occupied territories.

And people like Ter merely hasbara for the Zionists, knowing full well that Israel does not seek peace, merely land, and we also know this because Israel refuses to declare it borders because how else could it expand into neighbouring countries (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc.)

The Israelis learned well from the Nazis, more better because they have the West supporting their bidding.

Israel is a terrorist state, built on terrorism 71 years ago and something it continues to enact today on the millions it occupies or has forced into a concentration camp named Gaza (something even liberal world leaders admit).

Anyone who thinks Israel is a poor nation merely seeking to live peacefully is willfully ignorant because all the information is out there and has been since Israel's day of dot. You might be forgiven for not realizing the score in the 60s or 70s but from the 80s onwards, lol at your stupidity or aforementioned willful ignorance.
#15071486
skinster wrote:Palestinians were okay with accepting 22% of their land under Arafat, despite being offered 45% in the Balfour Agreement.


There skinster goes again with her lies.
Arafat refused the peace deal.
The Arabs want their Palestinian State PLUS the return of the refugees so they can overwhelm the Jewish ?Homeland and transform it into Islamic Shit Hole Number 58.

Anyway, I am still waiting for an answer to my question:
Ter wrote:If the Arabs claim that they would accept an Israel within the borders of pre-1967, why did they not accept the Jewish Homeland before 1967 ?


:roll:
#15072307
skinster wrote:Arafat refused to give up any more than 22% of Palestine.


Even your article admits that the return of the refugees was to remain on the table.

Besides:

Ter wrote:The Arabs want their Palestinian State PLUS the return of the refugees so they can overwhelm the Jewish ?Homeland and transform it into Islamic Shit Hole Number 58.


and

Ter wrote:Ter wrote:
If the Arabs claim that they would accept an Israel within the borders of pre-1967, why did they not accept the Jewish Homeland before 1967 ?


No answers...
Just repeating the slogans and the lies
#15076806
it is important to look at why many people, some of whom a re otherwise intelligent, fall for every lie put out by (perhaps self appointed) Palestinian spokespersons. The principle seems to be “ anything said by a member of an (allegedly) oppressed group is true” which rests on the deeper postulate “not to believe something said by an (alleged) victim is to continue their victimization.” there is always a chance that pointing out liberals’ neurotic beliefs will help them out of the hell they inhabit.
#15077629
Jedothek wrote:
it is important to look at why many people, some of whom a re otherwise intelligent, fall for every lie put out by (perhaps self appointed) Palestinian spokespersons. The principle seems to be “ anything said by a member of an (allegedly) oppressed group is true” which rests on the deeper postulate “not to believe something said by an (alleged) victim is to continue their victimization.” there is always a chance that pointing out liberals’ neurotic beliefs will help them out of the hell they inhabit.



Israel will never approve anything.

They've had a half century, and the only consistent thing they've done is to keep taking land.

Which they will keep doing.

The end result should be obvious even to the oblivious.
#15085858
late wrote:Israel will never approve anything.

They've had a half century, and the only consistent thing they've done is to keep taking land.

Which they will keep doing.

The end result should be obvious even to the oblivious.


Look, Israel does not have to approve anything any longer. Today Israel is not interested in the solution that was on the table in 1993 or before 1993.

In fact, today Israel is only interested in dictating the solution that is only in the interest of Israel and Israel only. Israel's message to the Palestinian Arabs is simple,- take it or leave it... either way is fine.

...and rightly so!

History is full of opportunities and when they are missed, as Palestinian Arabs routinely demonstrated over the past 70 years, those opportunities do not come back, nor they are offered back. The only way to get them back is through direct combat or by excepting a lesser opportunity.

Israel would welcome a military solution. Palestinian Arabs ...not so much.

Palestinian Arabs played the game poorly and they lost! We all know that, including you. Do not expect a do over from Israel, or from any other country for that matter, as history does not allow for that, so expecting it or demand it, as you do, is unreasonable.

Best case scenario for the Arabs is to grab what they can today and run, and they know it.

It is just a matter of time, perhaps in another 20 years, when the Arabs would see the Trump's Plan like a panacea and not a disaster, but, if history is any guide, it would also be too late for that too.

...and Israelis would most likely have the last laugh all the way to the bank.

...and rightly so! Think about it...
#15085981
skinster wrote:Israel bombed Syria again today, reminding me of this:


A short history of how Zionists stole Palestine by an Israeli historian:


LOL!
What are posting? Some videos with bankrupt opinions. I have news for you, - nobody cares for their views or for the views you profess. Haven't you noticed that your posts have not been taken seriously by anybody here and for a long time now.

You may complain about Israelis stealing Arab land all you want, and no country, that actually matters, would ever pay any attention to your views. Doesn't it tell you that your opinion is wrong and you must change it?

It is a harsh reality of life to recognise the failure, and, in your case, you must recognise the failure of Palestinian Arabs policy in their struggle with Israel. You must recognise that the Arab's Land, that you are so attached to, exists as an Arab's Land only in your imagination. Nobody who holds any power in this regard treats that land as an Arab Land.

This is the price if failure!

In order to go forward, you must change your tune, or you are risking becoming a laughing stock in a polite company. History is not kind to those.

Now, - you can start thinking constructively and pragmatically. First step would be for you to realise that Israeli Jews are people too, and any Arab-Israeli deal must reflect on what Israeli needs are. Arab needs come second, because the Arab of Palestine do not have a country. The needs of sovereign nation always come first.

Once you understand that history does not go backwards, does not allow for do-overs, you'll be able to envision the possibility within existing framework. Trump's Plan is offering Palestinian Arabs a country, not a country they want, but a country nonetheless. If they want more, they only way they can get it, is by a direct military confrontation that they must win. Find me a single serious Arab leader who seriously thinks that this is a path forward! You can't. So why are you trying so hard to advocate for a platform that cannot be supported by anybody. As Sigmund once opined, - "...denial is the most primitive defence..."

This is called a pragmatic view. Read Kissinger, - it helps!
#15085986
Metoo wrote:
You may complain about Israelis stealing Arab land all you want, and no country, that actually matters, would ever pay any attention to your views. Doesn't it tell you that your opinion is wrong and you must change it?


This is called a pragmatic view. Read Kissinger, - it helps!



America and Israel are drifting apart. It's quite slow, and there is plenty of sleazy politics trying to freeze it where it is.

But... things change. The ME is about to become a lot less important to the world. Israel's ethnic cleansing will continue, and eventually we are going to have a liberal or Progressive era here in the States.

They won't hide the tensions that have been bubbling under the surface.

One last thing, Kissinger has said some things that reveal where his real loyalties lie. For an ordinary citizen, that would be of no importance. But Kissinger was head of State, and is one of the leading elders in the diplomatic community to this day. Which makes his comment, that he placed the interests of Israel first, intensely regrettable.
#15086220
late wrote:America and Israel are drifting apart. It's quite slow, and there is plenty of sleazy politics trying to freeze it where it is.


Israeli-American relationship is oscillatory. It has always been drifting all over the place since day one, - sometimes apart and sometimes closer together. It always depended on somewhat divergent interests and priorities of both states. In this regard, it is no different than a relationship that US has with UK.

However, any hope that you may have for a break up between Israel and US is unfounded. It is unfounded historically and unfounded from geopolitical objective perspective.

As long as Israel and US share common values, there will always be a sufficient critical mass of people that would wish for those two countries to be closer together rather than be separate. And it is those people that have always and will always have the power.

For that metrics to change, the US of A will have to entertain a Soviet style political metamorphosis. And what are the chances of that? So, - yes, while a liberal/leftist political power may rise in US, as it did with Obama administration, the Israeli-US relationship will be marching on, as it always did, regardless.

Some call it a conspiracy, but those are less than intelligent people. I hope you understand…

late wrote:But... things change. The ME is about to become a lot less important to the world. Israel's ethnic cleansing will continue, and eventually we are going to have a liberal or Progressive era here in the States.
They won't hide the tensions that have been bubbling under the surface.


I do hope that you are correct and Middle East may become less important. It is a high time that the world should leave the Jews along.

Israel is pursuing its interests, LIKE ANY OTHER COUNTRY DOES. So, if are upset about what Israel is doing, then you should be upset what dozens and dozens of other countries are doing. Where is your outcry?

When you actually look at it this way, you’ll see immediately, that Israel has by far a better case with regards to human rights then nearly any other country to whose actions you may object.
Fundamentally, there is no ethnic cleansing in Israel, none! There is no land theft either.

You will never be able to argue ‘ethnic cleansing’ or ‘land theft’ successfully in any Western court, which is one of the reasons why Palestinian Arabs will never pursue this in a legal setting. They know what you do not know! They can only pursue this in the court of public opinion, where they do find people who think in the way that you do. Lenin called those, - “useful idiots”.
#15086229
From Sea to Sea, set Palestine Free
#15086236
Metoo wrote:
Israeli-American relationship is oscillatory.

In this regard, it is no different than a relationship that US has with UK.

However, any hope that you may have for a break up between Israel and US is unfounded. It is unfounded historically and unfounded from geopolitical objective perspective.

For that metrics to change, the US of A will have to entertain a Soviet style political metamorphosis. And what are the chances of that? So, - yes, while a liberal/leftist political power may rise in US, as it did with Obama administration, the Israeli-US relationship will be marching on, as it always did, regardless.

Some call it a conspiracy, but those are less than intelligent people. I hope you understand…


Fundamentally, there is no ethnic cleansing in Israel, none! There is no land theft either.




Interesting phrase, it was very strong, now the growing tensions will keep building until there is a transition.

It's quite different from our relationship with the UK, it's the only developed country we give a lot of aid to. That's kinda weird. That's part of the problem, we still behave towards them like they were an infant country in a staggering amount of danger. They treat us with a barely concealed contempt.

I didn't say break up. That depends a lot of how long the tensions get to build before they released.

Love the dystopian fantasy. You see continuity, and that's entirely reasonable. I've had an interest in foreign affairs for half a century, I can see change coming.

I see Israel is about to take more of the West Bank. Oh wait, is it ok to talk about reality?
#15086238
There's no doubt that Palestinian Muslims were on the very rough end of justice in 1948. Although it would be absurd to describe 48 as genocide, the Zionists clearly learnt from the Muslim genociders of the Armenians about creating facts on the ground. But given the horrifying behaviour of the Muslims over the previous 1300 years, they are in no position to demand any sympathy. They stole Palestine from us along with most of the rest of the Middle East and North Africa. As for the Palestinian Christians, if you become Muslim collaborators then you will have to share in the guilt for their crimes.

I oppose Communism and Fascism not because I think the current Liberal World order is fair, but because the worlds they produce are more unfair. So in the real world we negotiate from our positions of relative power, we don't decide things on the basis of some absolute justice. So the problem for any deal is that basically involves Israel giving away things, for nothing in return. The Palestinians and their supporters will just bank anything Israel gives them and ask for more. Even if a Palestine leader feels honour bound by his promises, he will be replaced by a leader who isn't.

Israel was immensely stupid. They just couldn't give back the Sinai and the Canal fast enough. Hopefully Israel has finally cured itself of its pathological addiction to giving away land for nothing. You will only be forgiven when you've given up every last scrap of Israel, actually probably not even then.
#15086280
Metoo wrote:Fundamentally, there is no ethnic cleansing in Israel, none! There is no land theft either.


I guess words are meaningless to you. The opposite of what you said is true.

Imprisoning millions of people, denying them any rights, forcing them to live under occupation etc. has consequences. Which include people like me complaining about what people like you are doing in full view of the world.

Also, can you quit bombing your neighbour Syria, who is currently in a war fighting al-Qaeda-affiliated groups? That would be cool.

More on the Apartheid State:
#15086296
Donna wrote:From Sea to Sea, set Palestine Free


That slogan helps the leaders of the Jewish Homeland not to cave in to Arab demands because the destruction of Israel as the Jewish Homeland would be the logical outcome of it.

skinster wrote:Also, can you quit bombing your neighbour Syria, who is currently in a war fighting al-Qaeda-affiliated groups? That would be cool.

Of course, yes, at once, if Iran and Hezbollah would not be there to set up bases to threaten the Jewish Homeland.
Till then, Israel will continue to act in self defence and bomb those terrorists.

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