Does US Money fuel the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15100123
Hindsite wrote:Most Americans did not know much about the divisions in Islam or of the extreme dangers of Islam to the USA until after the 9/11 attacks in America.


The attacks occurred not because Islam is inherently dangerous but because the US provoked the muslims by backing their number 1 enemy--Israel. Essentially, this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission.


And the Bush administration thought Iraq, which might still have weapons of mass destruction, where more of a danger to us than al Qaeda in Afghanistan or any particular division of Islam.


Na, WMD were just a pretext. The whole stupid misadventure stemmed from zionist neocon influence over shrub jr. They just wanted Iraq wrecked to benefit Israel.


President George W. Bush was more familiar with Saddam Hussein because of his father's experience with Saddam in the first Gulf war after having to drive him out out of Kuwait.


Shrub I knew better than to go to Baghdad.

That is why Bush put more effort in getting rid of the evil dictator Saddam Hussein and believed that people of Iraq would be grateful and would be glad to have the USA help them establish a democratic government and they would live happily ever after.


Naive, stupid idiot.

President Trump recognized the true dangers of Islam and especially ISIS and decided to do something about reducing their spread by eliminating their caliphate.


It was Obama that killed bin laden in 2011 and began to intervene against ISIS in 2014, long before trump.

Israel has had to fight, in limited self defense, every Islamic power that has come against it in order to survive as a nation. Israel does not go out looking for a fight.


Israel in fact initiated the wars of 1956, 1967, 1982…Even the '73 war was not fought in "self defense" but to prevent the arabs from regaining their own territory.
Btw getting back to Israel as an "ally": By the time of the gulf crisis of 1990-91 the US had already shelled out many billions to strengthen Israel. But from our perspective that money was wasted. Not one Israel soldier fought with the coalition. Israel couldn't even strike back after SCUD attacks. A regional pariah is of no value as an "ally."
#15100142
starman2003 wrote:It was Obama that killed bin laden in 2011 and began to intervene against ISIS in 2014, long before trump.

Although Obama was required to approve the opperation, in actually, Osama bin Laden was killed in Pakistan by U.S. Navy SEAL Team Six on May 2, 2011 after nearly a 10 year search iniated by order of George W. Bush. In November 2014, former SEAL Robert O'Neill disclosed his identity as the shooter that actually killed Osama bin Laden in a series of interviews with The Washington Post.

When Trump took office, the U.S. had been mired in a discouraging stalemate in the fight against a group that Obama had initially dismissed as the “JV” terrorist team and therefore unworthy of his attention. Obama had little appetite for another Middle East war after he pulled U.S. forces out of Iraq. Having claimed that he had ended or wound down America’s wars, it took more than a year for him to admit that his Iraq bugout and refusal to intervene in the Syrian civil war — even to enforce his “red line” over Bashar al-Assad’s use of chemical weapons — had created a vacuum that ISIS filled. That reluctance seemed to carry over into U.S. efforts during the two years following Obama’s 2014 pledge to “degrade and ultimately destroy” the terrorist group as coalition forces made little headway against the enemy.

Under Obama, the White House micromanaged the conflict in a manner that calls to mind the way President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara fought the Vietnam War with similar dismal results.

In January 2017 when Trump took office, ISIS controlled 23,300 square miles. Trump loosened the rules of engagement to allow commanders in the field more authority in day-to-day decisions about fighting the enemy freeing them to attack the enemy with more aggression resulting in the collapse of the caliphate as the land was taken back.

starman2003 wrote:Israel in fact initiated the wars of 1956, 1967, 1982…Even the '73 war was not fought in "self defense" but to prevent the arabs from regaining their own territory.

That is all Arab propaganda bullshit. The 1956 war was in response the Suez Crisis in which Egypt blocked shipping by taking over the canal. Israel was able to obtain freedom of navigation through the Straits of Tiran, which Egypt had blocked to Israeli shipping since 1950.

In 1967, Eqypt again banned Israeli shipping from the Straits of Tiran and signed defense pacts with Jordan, Syria, and Iraq. Therefore, in defense of its rights Israel had to launch a preemptive strike of the air forces of Eqypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq. Jordan began shelling Israeli positions in Jerusalem. Israel responded with a devastating counterattack on East Jerusalem and the West Bank. This was called the Six Day War in which Israel captured the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. The conflict with Egypt and Israel over the Suez canal actually contined until fighting stopped after a cease fire in 1970.

Egypt and Syria launched the Yom Kippur War of 1973 with air strikes against Israeli targets in the Suez Canal and Golan Heights to take back the land lost in the Six Day War of 1967. Of course, Israel was not going to give that land back because they needed it as a defensive buffer against future attacks.

The 1981 air raid was in self-defense to destroy the Iragi nuclear reactor after Iraqi had been threatening Israel with utter destruction and after negotiations to prevent Iraq from obtaining nuclear weapons had failed.

starman2003 wrote: getting back to Israel as an "ally": By the time of the gulf crisis of 1990-91 the US had already shelled out many billions to strengthen Israel. But from our perspective that money was wasted. Not one Israel soldier fought with the coalition. Israel couldn't even strike back after SCUD attacks. A regional pariah is of no value as an "ally."

That is because the U.S. President asked Israel not to strike back against the Scud attacks of Iraq in order to keep other Arab nations from entering the war. In return the United States provided Israel with a missile defense system to reduce the impact of Iraq's scud missile attacks.
#15100369
Hindsite wrote:Although Obama was required to approve the opperation, in actually, Osama bin Laden was killed in Pakistan by U.S. Navy SEAL Team Six on May 2, 2011 after nearly a 10 year search iniated by order of George W. Bush.


I didn't mean that Obama had personally killed bin laden….

In January 2017 when Trump took office, ISIS controlled 23,300 square miles. Trump loosened the rules of engagement to allow commanders in the field more authority in day-to-day decisions about fighting the enemy freeing them to attack the enemy with more aggression resulting in the collapse of the caliphate as the land was taken back.


ISIS had already been stopped in 2014, and began losing turf before Trump. The battle to retake Mosul began in October 2016 and of course considerable progress had been made against ISIS prior to that.


That is all Arab propaganda bullshit. The 1956 war was in response the Suez Crisis in which Egypt blocked shipping by taking over the canal. Israel was able to obtain freedom of navigation through the Straits of Tiran, which Egypt had blocked to Israeli shipping since 1950.


So in other words Israel was able to manage for 6 years before '56 without use of the straits...The 1956 war was a joint scheme involving Britain, France and Israel to topple Nasser and take the canal. It was premeditated aggression not self defense.

In 1967, Eqypt again banned Israeli shipping from the Straits of Tiran and signed defense pacts with Jordan, Syria, and Iraq. Therefore, in defense of its rights Israel had to launch a preemptive strike of the air forces of Eqypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq.


The oft repeated term "preemptive strike" is zionist BS because the arabs had NO intention of starting a war. Nasser did initiate a crisis but only to regain his leadership of the arab world. The idea was to challenge Israel and thereby get the other arabs to rally around him. But rhetoric belied actual arab intentions revealed by actual deployments. Without exception they were defensive.

Jordan began shelling Israeli positions in Jerusalem.


They only did that to mollify the Arab street. It wasn't a big deal; nothing the arabs did at the time threatened Israel's existence. There was never any possibility that Israel would be destroyed. The Israelis didn't really need to attack. They just wanted arab land and used the provocations as a pretext to take it.

…. Of course, Israel was not going to give that land back because they needed it as a defensive buffer against future attacks.


Nonsense. Even against the Israeli standing army, before reserve units came, arab forces made very limited progress--only about 10km or so--far less than they'd need to overrun Israel even had they started from the old borders. The Israelis had already won three wars fighting from the old borders including the war of '48 when arabs attacked.

The 1981 air raid was in self-defense to destroy the Iragi nuclear reactor after Iraqi had been threatening Israel with utter destruction and after negotiations to prevent Iraq from obtaining nuclear weapons had failed.


More zionist nonsense. By 1981 Israel already had perhaps 200 nuclear bombs(!)--an overwhelming deterrent... Iraq just wanted a counterbalancing deterrent capability of its own. Again there is a disconnect between rhetoric and policy. The Iraqis would have to be retarded to launch a nuclear strike on Israel--utter suicide. Note that Saddam had some WMD such as poison gas but didn't dare use it in '91.


That is because the U.S. President asked Israel not to strike back against the Scud attacks of Iraq in order to keep other Arab nations from entering the war.


Of course!! The point was that Israel is completely worthless as an "ally" because it's a regional pariah. It couldn't send troops to the gulf nor even retaliate for SCUD strikes! If the US wished to arm a state to help it police the region and maintain stability, it couldn't have picked a worse one…The gulf crisis showed clearly that backing Israel does not further our interests. The policy stems from domestic politics--the excessive clout of those who care more for their foreign number 1 than the US itself.
Last edited by starman2003 on 16 Jun 2020 10:43, edited 1 time in total.
#15100475
JohnRawls wrote:Supposdely there should be two states so Israel can deny Palestinians a vote in Israels election because they have a state of their own.


They don't have a state though, Israel stole what was meant to be the Palestinian state living alongside it (the West Bank, Gaza & East Jerusalem). Now Israel rules all those areas, AKA all the land and keeps about 4 million Palestinians living under a racist military occupation and an extra 2 million under a starving blockade in a massive prison known as Gaza.

This is why we say FREE PALESTINE, because Palestine is under a military occupation that denies Palestinians civil rights, which is ruled by a racist state that has been killing and ethnically-cleansing Palestinians since the early 1940s when Euro-Zionist terrorist gangs invaded and stole the country.

And again, it's a shit ally to the U.S. in the sense it doesn't appear to benefit the American people, but perhaps not too since it probably makes a lot of American oil, govt and military people very rich.
#15100602
starman2003 wrote:ISIS had already been stopped in 2014...

If you rather believe propaganda over truth, then I can't help you.

In 2014, ISIS took control of Falluja, Mosul and Tikrit in Iraq, and declared itself a caliphate, which is a political and religious territory ruled by a leader known as a caliph.

ISIS fighters attacked a northern town in Iraq that was home to the Yazidis, a minority religious group, in August 2014. They killed hundreds of people, sold women into slavery, forced religious conversions and caused tens of thousands of Yazidis to flee from their homes.

One of the first widely publicized acts of ISIS violence happened in August 2014, when a few of the group’s militants beheaded U.S. journalist James Foley and posted a video of the bloody execution on YouTube.

About a month later, ISIS released another video that showed the beheading of U.S. journalist Steven Sotloff. A series of gruesome videos showing the beheadings of kidnapped journalists and international aid workers followed for the next several months.

In February 2015, ISIS released footage of Jordanian military pilot Moath al-Kasasbeh being burned alive in a cage. The same month, an ISIS video showed militants beheading 21 Egyptian Christians on a beach in Libya.

Images of a man being thrown off a building in Syria were made public in March 2015. ISIS claimed to have killed the man because he was a homosexual.


ISIS has also claimed responsibility for hundreds of terrorist attacks in the Middle East and around the world. Some of the most well-known attacks on Western soil that were linked to ISIS include:

November 2015, Paris Attacks: In a series of attacks, bombers and shooters terrorized the streets of Paris, killing 130 people.

December 2015, San Bernardino Attack: A married couple opened fire at the Inland Regional Center in California and killed 14 people.

March 2016, Brussels Bombings: Bombings at Brussels Airport in Belgium and a nearby Metro station killed 32 people.

June 2016, Pulse Nightclub Shooting: A gunman opened fire inside a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla., and killed 49 people.

July 2016, Nice Attack: A terrorist driving a truck mowed down a crowd of people in the French Riviera town, killing 86.

December 2016, Berlin Attack: A man hijacked and drove a truck into a Christmas market in Berlin, killing himself and 11 others.

May 2017, Manchester Attack: A single suicide bomber killed 22 people during an Ariana Grande concert at the Manchester Arena in England.

Since about 2014, members of ISIS have destroyed numerous historical sites and artifacts throughout Iraq, Syria and Libya.

ISIS has been called the richest terrorist organization in the world. While estimates vary, the group was said to have made $2 billion in 2014 alone. Much of ISIS’s money has come from seizing control of banks, oil refineries and other assets in the territories it occupies.

The group has also used kidnapping ransoms, taxes, extortion, stolen artifacts, donations, looting and support from foreign fighters to fill its coffers.

https://www.history.com/topics/21st-century/isis
Last edited by Hindsite on 16 Jun 2020 06:06, edited 2 times in total.
#15100607
Hindsite wrote:If you rather believe propaganda over truth, then I can't help you.


It's not propaganda. Russia alone did far more to all but destroy ISIS and the other Islamist Jihadis than the United States ever thought about. Indeed, we supported Jihadis in Syria to overthrow it's legitimate government, something that threatened Israel's security too, by the way...
#15100611
annatar1914 wrote:It's not propaganda. Russia alone did far more to all but destroy ISIS and the other Islamist Jihadis than the United States ever thought about. Indeed, we supported Jihadis in Syria to overthrow it's legitimate government, something that threatened Israel's security too, by the way...

ISIS clearly was not stopped in 2014. That is definitely propaganda.

Pentagon chief: Russian efforts in fight against ISIS 'virtually zero'
01/08/17

Secretary of Defense Ash Carter said Sunday that Russia has done nothing in the fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).

“They haven’t done anything,” Carter told NBC’s “Meet the Press.”

Carter said Russia’s efforts in the war against ISIS are “virtually zero.”

Russia began its military intervention in the Syrian civil war in September of 2015. Since then, Russia has aided the Syrian government with airstrikes as it works to take back territory from opposition groups.

“They came in, they said they were going to fight ISIL, and they said they were going to help in the civil war in Syria,” Carter said, using another acronym for the terrorist organization.

“They haven’t done either of those things. As a consequence of course, we’re fighting ISIL ourselves.”

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... ually-zero
#15100613
Hindsite wrote:ISIS clearly was not stopped in 2014. That is definitely propaganda.


They had stalled out in 2014, from the ferocious Russian attacks and massive reinforcements from Iran and Lebanon's Hezbollah sent to Syria and Iraq to aid the governments there to defeat ISIS. The US Military was tasked to give a half-assed appearance of fighting ISIS but mainly American military units there, illegally under established international law, have been more interested in seizing Syria's oilfields all along, with the help of Kurdish forces.
#15100621
annatar1914 wrote:They had stalled out in 2014, from the ferocious Russian attacks and massive reinforcements from Iran and Lebanon's Hezbollah sent to Syria and Iraq to aid the governments there to defeat ISIS. The US Military was tasked to give a half-assed appearance of fighting ISIS but mainly American military units there, illegally under established international law, have been more interested in seizing Syria's oilfields all along, with the help of Kurdish forces.

That must be from the Russian propaganda version of events. Lucky for me I can not read Russian.
#15100637
Hindsite wrote:If you rather believe propaganda over truth, then I can't help you.

In 2014, ISIS took control of Falluja, Mosul and Tikrit in Iraq, and declared itself a caliphate, which is a political and religious territory ruled by a leader known as a caliph.


I meant its territorial expansion ceased in Iraq in 2014, after its big gains that year. Obama intervened against ISIS with drone strikes.
#15100640
starman2003 wrote:I meant its territorial expansion ceased in Iraq in 2014, after its big gains that year. Obama intervened against ISIS with drone strikes.

Obama pulling troops out of Iraq after Bush warned him of the dangers led to the creation of ISIS. And yeah, I remember the social media reports that ISIS was warned up to 45 minutes before those airstrikes.

CLAIM: Obama Warned Islamic State 45 Minutes Before U.S. Airstrikes
25 Nov 2015

When asked about it, Pentagon spokesman Colonel Steve Warren told reporters that before the mid-November airstrike, the military dropped leaflets warning truckers, “Get out of your trucks now, and run away from them.”

The air force also made low passes to warn of impending strikes and announced in another leaflet: “Warning: airstrikes are coming. Oil trucks will be destroyed. Get away from your oil trucks immediately. Do not risk your life.”

Warren told reporters at a November 18 briefing:

‘This is our first strike against tanker trucks, and to minimize risks to civilians, we conducted a leaflet drop prior to the strike. We did a show of force, by – we had aircraft essentially buzz the trucks at low altitude.

‘So, I do have copy of the leaflet, and I have got some videos, so why don’t you pull the leaflet up. Let me take a look at it so I can talk about it.

‘As you can see, it’s a fairly simple leaflet, it says, “Get out of your trucks now, and run away from them.” A very simple message.

‘And then also, “Warning: airstrikes are coming. Oil trucks will be destroyed. Get away from your oil trucks immediately. Do not risk your life.”

‘And so these are the leaflets that we dropped – about 45 minutes before the airstrikes actually began. Again, we combine these leaflet drops with very low-altitude passes of some of our attack aviation, which sends a very powerful message.’

Social media messages claimed Obama himself issued the 45-minute advance notice with the goal of alerting ISIS to incoming strikes, and multiple blogs ran similar headlines.

As Snopes.com accurately pointed out, however, the military operation “didn’t directly involve President Obama” and there is no evidence Obama himself called for the leaflet drop. Nonetheless, Obama does help set the tone for Pentagon policy and the most obvious downside to the civilian tip-offs is that ISIS was likely alerted.
https://www.breitbart.com/national-secu ... irstrikes/

Obama Doubles Down on ISIS Strategy After Paris Attacks
Nov. 16, 2016

In a news conference in Antalya, Turkey, where he was attending a G20 meeting, Obama repeatedly rejected criticism of his approach to fighting ISIS, refused to say he had underestimated the group and pledged to continue his current policies.

Despite calls from some Republicans to send tens of thousands of troops to fight ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Obama argued that the U.S. experience after the Iraq war showed the flaws of such an approach.

Twice asked by reporters if he regretted his handling of ISIS as the group gained strength, particularly early last year when the president compared ISIS to a "jv team," a frustrated Obama said there has long been "an acute awareness" from his administration about the dangers of ISIS.

The president even repeated a remark that he made Thursday that was widely criticized in the wake of Paris attacks, arguing that the coalition against the group is already "containing" ISIS in Iraq and Syria, since the insurgent group holds less territory in those two countries than it did last year.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris ... ks-n464416
#15100682
skinster wrote:They don't have a state though, Israel stole what was meant to be the Palestinian state living alongside it (the West Bank, Gaza & East Jerusalem). Now Israel rules all those areas, AKA all the land and keeps about 4 million Palestinians living under a racist military occupation and an extra 2 million under a starving blockade in a massive prison known as Gaza.

This is why we say FREE PALESTINE, because Palestine is under a military occupation that denies Palestinians civil rights, which is ruled by a racist state that has been killing and ethnically-cleansing Palestinians since the early 1940s when Euro-Zionist terrorist gangs invaded and stole the country.

And again, it's a shit ally to the U.S. in the sense it doesn't appear to benefit the American people, but perhaps not too since it probably makes a lot of American oil, govt and military people very rich.


Let us agree to disagree between each other. We have done this talk so many times already. It's not like one more attempt will convince me or you otherwise so :peace:
#15100688
@JohnRawls @skinster

Based on my research, Israel is a very important ally for many reasons. My research indicaetes U.S. money reduces the Arab-Israeli conflict down to an Israeli Palestinian conflict. It also appears our alliance with Israel has gotten us influence in the Middle East at bargain prices. Here is a pdf from the Washington Institute where two sides argue for a position. One side argues that Israel is an asset whereas the other argues that Israel is a liability. Based on the arguments of the two sides, I would say that Israel being an asset wins the debate. Here is the pdf:

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/upl ... ty.pdf.pdf
#15100718
^ lol at you citing a pro-Israel/neocon think-tank. Try this instead.

JohnRawls wrote:Let us agree to disagree between each other. We have done this talk so many times already. It's not like one more attempt will convince me or you otherwise so :peace:


Again, we have not done this talk many times, I correct you on your misinformation and Zionist brainwashing and explain how you're wrong in your support of racist terrorism and denial of civil rights. And you start yapping about how we won't ever agree, as if that makes you correct in any way. Sure, be a gross Zionist - it's not as though it doesn't jive with the rest of your shitty politics - but if you want to suggest you're correct here, you're going to have to prove how.
#15100755
Hindsite wrote:That must be from the Russian propaganda version of events. Lucky for me I can not read Russian.


Yeah, you sure wouldn't want to be confused by actual information on the ground, by guys who have been fighting the Islamic Jihadis for years :roll: .

I have a hard time believing people are this stupid. If you were even half as informed about Israel as you try to think of yourself as being, you'd know from Israeli media that the Israelis are deeply appreciative of the Russian air and artillery strikes on the Islamofascists that prevented ISIS from being Israel's newest next door neighbor.
#15100802
annatar1914 wrote:Yeah, you sure wouldn't want to be confused by actual information on the ground, by guys who have been fighting the Islamic Jihadis for years :roll: .

I have a hard time believing people are this stupid. If you were even half as informed about Israel as you try to think of yourself as being, you'd know from Israeli media that the Israelis are deeply appreciative of the Russian air and artillery strikes on the Islamofascists that prevented ISIS from being Israel's newest next door neighbor.

I am sure Israel is grateful for any help that makes them safer, regardless of who it comes from. At least, Netanyahu and Putin seem to have a good relationship.
#15100830
Politics_Observer wrote:My research indicaetes U.S. money reduces the Arab-Israeli conflict down to an Israeli Palestinian conflict.


US money--bribing Egypt etc to make peace--contributed to it but other key factors were inter-arab fighting and the fall of the USSR. And the Palestinian issue could revive the whole conflict, if/when Israel goes too far in the west Bank.

It also appears our alliance with Israel has gotten us influence in the Middle East at bargain prices.


Indirect costs e.g. the '73 oil embargo and the Iraq misadventure--the work of pro-Israel neocons like wolfowitz--in addition to the well over $100 billion in direct costs, show Israel is a horrendous burden and we haven't seen the last or worst of it...

Btw Satloff starts out with an idiotic lie: Israel helped contain Soviet expansion in the Middle East. The '67 disaster made the arabs more dependent on Moscow as did setbacks in the war of attrition. Even after the '73 war, when Egypt turned to the US, the Soviets made gains in Libya and Iraq.

Btw Obama's decision to pull US troops out of Iraq-- understandable considering how stupid shrub was to go there in the first place--did not lead to the "creation of ISIS." The group existed at least since the invasion of 2003, so we have shrub to thank for that too...
#15100949
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/Moudelicious/status/1271367484935942145?s=20

Good morning. Israel is about to annex the Palestinian territory the West Bank which will leave approximately 300k people displaced from their homes and no one is talking about it.


Indeed, Israel will annex parts of Judea and Samaria that includes Jordan valley.
You do not have to like it. The world does not have to like it either. You have two choices, - learn to live with it or fight. Either way is fine.

You, skinster, have been giving ample justifications for the case of upcoming annexation on these pages over the years. Search the site, look back, read and learn.

Palestinian Arabs have been given a chance to have their own country, as late as 2008 and several times since 2000. They could have had it any time since 1967 also. Three famous 'NO's' from Nasser come to mind when I think about your complaints.

So, what do we have today in 2020? We have what we always had, - the 'NO'. Poll after poll from the Arabs living in the West Bank indicates that nothing short of Israeli suicide will suffice. I am not even going to mention the idiots who are running Gaza. LOL.

We have now arrived at moment of truth, - Israelis will finally correct the injustice of Palestine partition that took place back in 1947. Even though Ben Gurion agreed to it, - the Arabs managed to help Israelis to 'see' the light and finally Israelis will assert themselves.

It could have been different. It could have been a friendly coexistence, with great common market, and millions of happy people, - all of them, - the Jews the Muslims, the Samaritans, the Druse, the Circassian, the Christians...did I forget anybody?

But now, the Muslim Palestinian Arabs will be excluded from this club. Pity!

Anyway, skinster, - learn to live with it. It is a done deal. Your advocacy is no longer intelligent. And soon, nobody who actually matters will pay attention to your complaints.

The world is moving on. You are left behind.

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