[Hindsite]

Shame on those trained not to care about what's happening to a defenceless refugee population caged in a concentration camp.

FAKE News.

[skinster]

Nope:

[annatar1914]

Nope:

Got to say, Gaza sure does remind me of the Warsaw Ghetto and the Jewish uprising against the Fascists there. I don't know, I've got to think about matters more on this issue.

[skinster]

This is Zionism.


Anti-Netanyahu protests are ongoing in Israel which few are speaking about.

I don't know, I've got to think about matters more on this issue.

Why? It's pretty straight forward.

[annatar1914]

Why? It's pretty straight forward.

Not quite.This whole thing with Zionism has theological as well as political dimensions. An ideology oftentimes looks good in theory, until you count the human cost.

[skinster]

Not quite.This whole thing with Zionism has theological as well as political dimensions. An ideology oftentimes looks good in theory, until you count the human cost.

I was referring to your comments on Gaza.

Re: Zionism, some orthodox Jews might argue with you about the so-called theological basis. Zionism isn't religious, European Jews who made it happen in state-form were secular/atheists. What we today see Zionism as in practice, can be explained by this survivor of the holocaust.

[annatar1914]

I was referring to your comments on Gaza.

Re: Zionism, some orthodox Jews might argue with you about the so-called theological basis.

I was referring more to the Orthodox Christian view of 'Israel'' and the attendant ''Christian Zionism''. I've tried to support the notion of a Jewish Homeland, but;

St. Justin Martyr writes in the 2nd century:

“…Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? Or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race” (Dialogue with Trypho, CXXXV).

Tertullian wrote;

“Now, if the Creator indeed promised that ‘the ancient things should pass away,’ to be superseded by a new course of things which should arise, whilst Christ marks the period of the separation when He says, ‘The law and the prophets were until John’” (Against Marcion; Book V, Ch. 2: “On The Epistle to the Galatians”).

The Orthodox Church is Israel, the People of God. The notion that there is a special alternative Divine plan for those who rejected Christ is on the face of it, bizarre and heretical for any Orthodox Christian to believe, and now Christian of any kind believed that for almost 2000 years. It is a modern novelty, ''Christian Zionism'', much as is Zionism in general.

That is not to say that we do not predict that the Jews will one day be converted, this also do we believe in as a miracle of God.

[skinster]

Media Show Little Interest in Israeli Bombing of Gaza
Israel is bombing Palestine again, although you likely wouldn’t guess that from watching TV news. For the eleventh straight night, Israeli Defense Force warplanes have been bombing the densely populated Gaza Strip. Israel’s bombs have caused considerable damage, forcing the shutdown of the area’s only power plant.

But US corporate media, focused on the coronavirus and election coverage, have shown little interest in the renewed violence in the Middle East. Searching for “Gaza” on the websites of NBC News, CNN, MSNBC and PBS elicits no relevant results. Nor has Fox News addressed the bombings, although it did find time (8/18/20) to cover the archaeological discovery of an old soap factory in Israel’s Negev Desert.

Other major news networks were not much better. In a wide ranging interview with Trump advisor Jared Kushner, CBS’s Face the Nation host Margaret Brennan (8/16/20) did mention that “there were hostilities overnight in Gaza. There were Israeli airstrikes. Palestinian militants fired off rockets,” in a question about the US’s role in the Middle East, but did not return to it.

CBS (8/13/20) also reprinted an AFP newswire story headlined “Israel Responds to Fire Balloons From Gaza Strip With Fighter Jet Strikes,” which began by stating (emphasis added):

"Israel attacked targets of Islamist group Hamas in Gaza and halted fuel supplies to the enclave Thursday in the latest retaliation against fire bombs suspended from balloons that have been released from the Palestinian territory."

The story clearly presents the bombing as a reactive Israeli counter-effort—not an attack on Palestine, but a response against Hamas, which it describes not as a political party but as an “Islamist group.” Hamas, it insists, was the target, despite later noting that a UN-run school was also hit. AFP did not comment on the lack of symmetry between homemade explosives tied to balloons and F-35 jets.

ABC News, meanwhile, relied on another news agency for all of its (limited) coverage (two pieces), reprinting (8/16/20) an Associated Press article that similarly presented the cutting off of Gaza’s electricity supply as a “response” to aggression from the “Palestinian militants” of Hamas.

A second AP story, headlined “Israel Strikes Gaza Targets After Arson Balloons Launched,” was picked up not just by ABC (8/16/20) but by influential outlets like the New York Times (8/15/20), Washington Post (8/16/20) and Guardian (8/16/20). The piece is at pains to present Israeli actions as directed purely against Hamas, and as a response, not an aggressive action, allowing Israeli military spokespersons to drive the narrative. Indeed, much of the report reads like an IDF press release.

A leaked 2009 publication from the Israel Project, an Israeli/American group that advises Israel advocates on what language to use when discussing the Palestine conflict, stresses that they should “clearly differentiate between the Palestinian people and Hamas.” “If it sounds like you are attacking the Palestinian people (even though they elected Hamas) rather than their leadership, you will lose public support,” they counsel. Media, it seems, are doing their job for them, in much the same way they reflexively present US actions against Iran as a “response” or a “counter” to the threat from Tehran (FAIR.org, 6/6/19).

In their seminal books on media coverage of the conflict, Bad News From Israel and More Bad News From Israel, Greg Philo and Mike Berry wrote that TV news followed a “consistent pattern,” which misleadingly presented the events as “Palestinian action and Israeli response and retaliation,” their focus group sessions showing that the presentation had a “significant effect” on how the public remembered events and apportioned blame, effectively legitimizing Israeli actions. Sixteen years after their first study was published, corporate media appear to be following exactly the same playbook.

The US press sampled here have produced barely any original coverage of the 11-day (and counting) bombing campaign of the area commonly described as the world’s largest open-air prison. This is in contrast to foreign channels such as Al-Jazeera and RT, or alternative media like Democracy Now!, all of whom have followed the events in more depth, and often with fewer resources. When corporate media have covered it, they have followed tried and tested conventions that reproduce an Israeli-friendly narrative.

Media coverage of Israel/Palestine is a topic FAIR has criticized for decades (e.g., Extra!, 1/91; Extra! Update, 2/05; FAIR.org, 8/6/14, 3/29/19). The reporting on the latest round of attacks on Gaza follows the patterns we have often remarked on: downplaying Palestinian suffering and viewing the conflict from an Israeli state perspective.
https://fair.org/home/media-show-little ... g-of-gaza/

Protests against Nethanyahu continue and Israeli police show how their violence isn't limited to Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis etc.:

That is not to say that we do not predict that the Jews will one day be converted, this also do we believe in as a miracle of God.

Can't you just like, let there be no compulsion in religion?

[starman2003]

Why? It's pretty straight forward.

Despite all the evidence against the zionists many people are reluctant to oppose them openly because of their well-heeled, fanatic supporters and their "anti-semite" smear tactic.

[skinster]

What cowards.

Still, sooner or later, the truth will oot.

The bombing of Gaza continues every night, and is still ignored in the MSM.


IDF guy caught committing arson attacks that are usually blamed on Palestinians and used as a pretext to attack/bomb Palestinians, including right now in Gaza.

Israeli terrorism elsewhere in Palestine:

[Rich]

The bombing of Gaza continues every night, and is still ignored in the MSM.

What has this got to do with Trump? This is a Trump forum right? Even science and technology threads are meant to relate back to Trump. As far as I can make out Trump and Biden have agreed not to make Israel / Palestine an issue in this campaign, but there's still plenty we can talk about?

[skinster]

What has this got to do with Trump? This is a Trump forum right? Even science and technology threads are meant to relate back to Trump. As far as I can make out Trump and Biden have agreed not to make Israel / Palestine an issue in this campaign, but there's still plenty we can talk about?

This thread is on the (short) history of Israel and Zionism, including the present. The present includes the bombing every night of an imprisoned population of refugees that the world is ignoring, including many posters here who often pipe up as soon as there are things like protests or attacks from countries the U.S. Empire targets.

Anyway it doesn't matter who's playing manager of Empire in the U.S. since both puppets will lavishly arm and fund the IDF and we know Democrats gave Israel the largest military aid package in history.

[Rich]

Hilary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and China-Joe have been demanding that the American President recognise the annexation of East Jerusalem for decades. Donald Trump had great courage in going through with it. Joe Biden accepts the recognition of East Jerusalem was the right thing to do, although he recognises that he wasn't man enough to do it himself.

If Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Hebron aren't part of the historic land of the the Jews, I don't know what is. It would be like saying that Essex is not part of England.

[skinster]

You view things through the lens of biblical mythology, cool story.

Documentary on dissident Israeli journalist, Gideon Levy.

[Hindsite]

Hilary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and China-Joe have been demanding that the American President recognise the annexation of East Jerusalem for decades. Donald Trump had great courage in going through with it. Joe Biden accepts the recognition of East Jerusalem was the right thing to do, although he recognises that he wasn't man enough to do it himself.

If Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Hebron aren't part of the historic land of the the Jews, I don't know what is. It would be like saying that Essex is not part of England.

President Trump has never claimed to be a Christian Zionist, but he is doing things that I would expect a Christian Zionist to do. I never thought of myself as a Christian Zionist either until colliric brought it to my attention, but simply just as a Christian that supported the nation of Israel's right to exist.

[QatzelOk]

President Trump has never claimed to be a Christian Zionist, but he is doing things that I would expect a Christian Zionist to do.

Having "worked" in television, Trump understands the importance of following a script and reading your lines with feeling.

[skinster]

[annatar1914]

President Trump has never claimed to be a Christian Zionist, but he is doing things that I would expect a Christian Zionist to do. I never thought of myself as a Christian Zionist either until colliric brought it to my attention, but simply just as a Christian that supported the nation of Israel's right to exist.

If you're a real Christian and not a heretic, you're not a Zionist, and no Zionist is a real Christian but rather a betrayer of Christ, like Judas kissing Him in a pretense of following Him all the while turning Him over to the Prince of this World. Jesus of Nazareth IS King of the Jews, the King of Israel, and only His followers the Church are ''Israel'', not the Abomination of Desolation that sits in the Holy Land now that claims to be ''Israel''. Biological Jews who who knowingly and collectively reject the Rightful Sovereign King of Israel are rebels, and rebels have no claim to the land they lost after having rejected Him, because even though all the World is His, the Holy Land is the very special glorious place made Holy because He dwelt there, He and His Saints.

Those who have always lived there have a right to continue to be there, the rest are invaders and occupiers of other people's homes and the illegal users of other people's resources. They need to make peace, because what they have done and what they are doing is simply wrong, no matter what wrongs have been committed against them in the past.

[Hindsite]

If you're a real Christian and not a heretic, you're not a Zionist, and no Zionist is a real Christian but rather a betrayer of Christ, like Judas kissing Him in a pretense of following Him all the while turning Him over to the Prince of this World. Jesus of Nazareth IS King of the Jews, the King of Israel, and only His followers the Church are ''Israel'', not the Abomination of Desolation that sits in the Holy Land now that claims to be ''Israel''. Biological Jews who who knowingly and collectively reject the Rightful Sovereign King of Israel are rebels, and rebels have no claim to the land they lost after having rejected Him, because even though all the World is His, the Holy Land is the very special glorious place made Holy because He dwelt there, He and His Saints.

Those who have always lived there have a right to continue to be there, the rest are invaders and occupiers of other people's homes and the illegal users of other people's resources. They need to make peace, because what they have done and what they are doing is simply wrong, no matter what wrongs have been committed against them in the past.

You have overlooked the goodness of God in the Holy Bible.

“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will not be angry forever’” (Jeremiah 3:12).

In the same passage in which God sets up a scenario of hopelessness for Israel, He invites His people to “return” to Him and promises that His anger will end. Could it be that God’s love is stronger than His people’s rebellion? The Lord doubles down on His invitation:

“‘Return, faithless people,’ declares the Lord, ‘for I am your husband. I will choose you . . . and bring you to Zion” (Jeremiah 3:14).

God promises to do what the Mosaic Law could never do: restore the broken “marriage.” It was unthinkable that a human husband would take back his unfaithful wife, but God is greater than that; He can and will forgive His wayward people when they repent of their sin and seek Him again (Jeremiah 3:13).

God used the shocking illustration of a “divorce” of Israel to stress their guilt before Him. But God never cut Israel off unilaterally for all time. He only asked that they return to Him and experience His goodness. In fact, after God says that He “divorced” Israel, He commands them three times to “return” (Jeremiah 3:11, 14, 23).

The apostle Paul explains, “Did God reject his people? By no means! . . . God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. . . . At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. . . . Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! . . . And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again” (Romans 11:1–6, 11, 23).

Another illustration of God’s amazing goodness is found in the story of the prophet Hosea. God actually commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute (Hosea 1:2). She did not remain faithful to Hosea. Then, while his wife was living in immorality, the Lord commanded Hosea to find her and buy her back. God’s purpose was to show the greatness of His grace: “Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods” (Hosea 3:1).

Hosea’s grace toward his unfaithful wife is a model of God’s grace toward His unfaithful people. Israel had been chosen and loved by God, yet they were unfaithful to Him by way of idolatry. In Jeremiah 3, God gives them a “bill of divorcement,” but then He pleads with them to come back. In Hosea, God pursues and redeems His estranged “wife” and seeks to continue His relationship with her. Both stories provide an unforgettable picture of God’s strong, unending love for His covenant people.

How can a divorced wife return and be restored? The law forbade it, but “mercy triumphs over judgment” (James 2:13), and God still has a plan for Israel. God’s grace in the New Covenant provided restoration for all who would believe in Christ.

Once, the incredulous disciples asked Jesus, “Who can be saved?” Jesus assured them that salvation is based on God’s power and grace, not man’s efforts: “What is impossible with man is possible with God” (Luke 18:27).

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-di ... srael.html

[annatar1914]

You have overlooked the goodness of God in the Holy Bible.

“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will not be angry forever’” (Jeremiah 3:12).

In the same passage in which God sets up a scenario of hopelessness for Israel, He invites His people to “return” to Him and promises that His anger will end. Could it be that God’s love is stronger than His people’s rebellion? The Lord doubles down on His invitation:

“‘Return, faithless people,’ declares the Lord, ‘for I am your husband. I will choose you . . . and bring you to Zion” (Jeremiah 3:14).

God promises to do what the Mosaic Law could never do: restore the broken “marriage.” It was unthinkable that a human husband would take back his unfaithful wife, but God is greater than that; He can and will forgive His wayward people when they repent of their sin and seek Him again (Jeremiah 3:13).

God used the shocking illustration of a “divorce” of Israel to stress their guilt before Him. But God never cut Israel off unilaterally for all time. He only asked that they return to Him and experience His goodness. In fact, after God says that He “divorced” Israel, He commands them three times to “return” (Jeremiah 3:11, 14, 23).

The apostle Paul explains, “Did God reject his people? By no means! . . . God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. . . . At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. . . . Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! . . . And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again” (Romans 11:1–6, 11, 23).

Another illustration of God’s amazing goodness is found in the story of the prophet Hosea. God actually commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute (Hosea 1:2). She did not remain faithful to Hosea. Then, while his wife was living in immorality, the Lord commanded Hosea to find her and buy her back. God’s purpose was to show the greatness of His grace: “Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods” (Hosea 3:1).

Hosea’s grace toward his unfaithful wife is a model of God’s grace toward His unfaithful people. Israel had been chosen and loved by God, yet they were unfaithful to Him by way of idolatry. In Jeremiah 3, God gives them a “bill of divorcement,” but then He pleads with them to come back. In Hosea, God pursues and redeems His estranged “wife” and seeks to continue His relationship with her. Both stories provide an unforgettable picture of God’s strong, unending love for His covenant people.

How can a divorced wife return and be restored? The law forbade it, but “mercy triumphs over judgment” (James 2:13), and God still has a plan for Israel. God’s grace in the New Covenant provided restoration for all who would believe in Christ.

Once, the incredulous disciples asked Jesus, “Who can be saved?” Jesus assured them that salvation is based on God’s power and grace, not man’s efforts: “What is impossible with man is possible with God” (Luke 18:27).

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-di ... srael.html

I overlooked nothing. The future conversion of the Jews and their reception into the faithful Israel of God the Church, does not give them a pass for what they're doing wrong now, nor their present faithlessness.