[Tainari88]

Picking on 1492 is anti European racism. Most Amerindians were not living in peace prior to 1492. And even those that were, so what? Most were probably committing heinous crimes by the standards of our modern day laws. All over the world people were fighting each other and the powerful were exploiting the less powerful.

Why do you care so much if Europeans took land from Amerindians? The Amerindians were losers, so what. They would have done the same or worse to us if they got the chance. The Comanche, The Zulu and the Maori never conquered any of Europe. Do you think that was due to some superior moral virtue? No it was because of their inferior technology.

We can read about over 2000 years of Europeans attacking, conquering, enslaving, raping, lying, cheating and exploiting people, sometimes other Europeans, sometimes non Europeans. We can't read about this with Black Africans or Amerindians, not because they were one jot better morally, but simply because very limited or no writings were preserved.

I would love to share my studies with you about African civvies and Mesoamerican civvies. There is a lot that is known and some that is still being investigated. But your ideas about those old societies is not really accurate Rich.

Again, the main point of my pointing out to you your assumptions about what the Mexican American community thinks or believes as a whole in the Southwestern USA was not accurate. Mainly because you are not interested in knowing that history Rich.

Again, a long discussion on human rights.

Do you think your ancestors who lived in that area of the UK that you occupy right now, if some invading force came in and took it over with violence and you had to abandon that land or town to survive and are stuck in some strange place you never thought about living in before but it was the only place willing to take English Protestant refugees....you would reconsider your views. But since you do not see that as a possibility for your situation you do not really care about living in some other ethnic group's shoes.

Empathy is a very important and humane human quality. Something that is transcendent and powerful in the extreme for understanding what is being human is all about.

Now, you are right. Humans are very complex creatures, and they are not really all nice or all evil. There is tremendous variation in all of it.

The problem you have in my point of view, is that you really believe the Europeans are somehow better? Because they knew how to read and write and have better technology with the military? Lol.

If you look at even European history closely the English language was considered the language of the inferiors. The low. The commoners. Not fit for the upper classes to speak, until the English Navy started being successful. Most people in England for a long time were illiterate. Lived in squalor and terrible conditions if you can believe the accounts of Charles Dickens and many social reformers of 19th century England that spoke of workhouses and mass squalor and terrible conditions of the chimney sweeps and all the rest like shopgirls and so on who had to sleep at the shop and had long days and never a day off. Dying often without pay or food sometimes.

Is that a superior society to you Rich?

I think again, human rights in a universal way have to be the norm and the standard for all international political relationships. Not about who wants what resource and to hell with human rights of the ones who are in the way of that ambition.

Got to start somewhere. And that is a good place to start.

That humans can be cruel, nasty, and violent, greedy and unjust? I do not think that is in any controversial state to say that yes, humans of all races, creeds and nationalities can definitely exhibit such behavior.

The flaw in your thinking lies in thinking that somehow the justifies not changing or just moving forward with exploiting and destroying in a predatory manner other societies and that might is right and nothing will change.

That is not true. Everything changes. Everything has to be dealt with in time and space in human societies. We do not only evolve as a group and as a species but we also do so as a society that is experiencing conditions that teach us every day.

it is about adapting, learning and formulating something beyond what failed in the past and not to repeat the same mistakes and to move forward with some real advancement. Not a bunch of fearmongering and paranoid claims of since they are primitive in my head we can fuck them over. No. That mentality will not work at all Rich.

[Tailz]

It depends on the PM, like it or not even Netanyahu has always been quite open about his disregard of Oslo.

But you can't say Barak or Olmert weren't honest negotiators. Olmert in particular was honest about his offer to Abbas, as shown in the leaked Palestine Papers of around a decade ago.

What is the saying "The Palestinians never miss a chance, to miss a chance." There have been many chances for both sides that have been missed.

Not nearly to the extent of Hamas' control. Like it or not, the Israeli right doesn't rule Israel under a dictatorship, they use the democratic process just like other lobbies do.

And yet, until recently the streets had been filled with Israeli's who would disagree with you as Netanyahu - who was himself under investigation - sort to reform the Israeli judicial system.

Or am I to think such sectorial interests that cause all sorts of dysfunction don't exist in Western democracies?

Trying to cloud or distract with this comment, which just seems to be obvious obfuscation?

Yes, but they don't have their own military. When Israel left Gaza and, before, the Sinai they screamed and kicked but they had to comply eventually.

Yes, they make peace harder but they are not an insurmountable obstacle. And the Israeli right will have to face the domestic political fallout of this attack, it's likely many if not most Israelis will blame the right as a whole.

Doubtful, I am already seeing comments such as "Your either with us, or with them" doing the rounds, I think the right will capitalise on this attack to quash dissenting voices. I would expect the vilification of groups such as Breaking the Silence or Peace Now to be next....

There aren't two sides here. The Palestinians are not a single side, that alone is one of the key problems with any negotiation.

I totally agree, there are many sides.

And yes, it does often feel like a solution may need to be imposed.

More and more I see this is the only outcome. We can see the hostility towards Jews that has been instilled in the Gaza population in the barbaric deeds that have been committed by this horrible attack. Yet we have also seen years of bigotry towards Palestinians that have become ingrained in Israeli law with their own Nuremberg Race Laws that grant superiority to Jews.

But then again, how can a line be drawn under this when there is so much barbarity going on in the world? Russia invades Ukraine, China is imprisoning millions, religious extremism and the growth of the right-wing, the US can't even prosecute a corrupt real estate salesman. Humanity really has not advanced.... and history will repeat itself.

[Fasces]

The civilians in Gaza deserve what they get because they support Hamas. There are no civilians in Gaza. <---- OK

The civilians in Israel deserve what they get because they support the Israeli government. There are no civilians in Israel. <--- Not OK

[Rich]

The civilians in Gaza deserve what they get because they support Hamas. There are no civilians in Gaza. <---- OK

The civilians in Israel deserve what they get because they support the Israeli government. There are no civilians in Israel. <--- Not OK

Because when you drill down into it, you find that at root the Liberal's morality system is exactly the same as Hitler and the Nazis. When it comes down to it, when you clear away all the fluff, the obscurantism, the side tracking, the foundational morality of the Liberals and the Nazis is the same.

There are good peoples and bad peoples or evil peoples. Ask why the extermination bombing of Germany and Japan was OK and the only answer you'll ever get is that Germans and Japanese were bad. Ask why it was OK to apply extermination bombing to the working class districts of Hamburg, the most anti Nazi areas of what possibly was the most anti Nazi city in Germany and the only answer you'll get is that Germans were fundamentally evil. They all bear collective responsibility. What about a Japanese women say born in 1930, what real power did she have to effect Japanese foreign and military policy? What about the babies, what about the children, what about the "unborn childs" that American Conservative bleedin hearts claim to care so much about?

Germans and Japanese were born into evil, nay they were conceived into evil. Of course the Liberal desperately tries to avoid ever verbalising this. He desperately tries to avoid writing this down in bold form. The extermination bombing of Germany and Japan was not some regrettable excess by rogue individuals by a Lieutenant Calley or Colonel Kurtz. It was central to the allies war winning strategy. The allied extermination bombing ( done under the euphemism of de-housing) caused a massive diversion of resources, of expensive high quality guns of ammunition of planes and of pilots from the Eastern Front, it had a very real effect on the decisive battles of WW2.

It was genocide with a purpose, with an admirable purpose. Of course the Liberal will never admit to this. Either he will deny this was genocide, or he will try to pretend that the extermination bombing was ineffective,a stupid tactic by one of two bad apples in the allied high command, incidental to the glorious Arthurian struggle that was the allied war effort in WW2.

When I'm arguing with Liberals on a few occasions they have been about to say "but Italy wasn't really fully fascist" but usually manage to stop themselves. Ask the Liberal why even today we must hunt down Germans in their nineties for "crimes" in the second world war. Ask the Liberal why the Germans and Japanese had to be put on trial, but the Italians were to be let off scot free. Ask the Liberal why we needed to chase old men Germans to the ends of the earth for their alleged crimes against Italians after the fall of Mussolini, but we never even think to question whether the Italians might have committed some atrocities in Ethiopia, in Albania, in Greece or Libya.

The reason is that the Germans and Japanese have been designated as evil peoples, while the Italians haven't. But what about all the academic literature analysing Nazism and Fascism. Its all worthless trash. It has no more value than a child's scribbles. Its all written with the aim of marking the German and Japanese people as evil, but dressing it up in high fallutin academic language.

But what about nuance? Hitler and the Nazis seemed to believe that the Jews were evil for all time, while the Germans / Germanics / Aryans seem to have been fundamentally good for all time. The Liberal on the other hand does hold out the prospect of change. As Sir Humphry in "Yes Minister" puts it, if the Germans pay out enough cash they might be readmitted to the human race. They will no longer be considered sub humans. And conversely if you sent Liberal back in a time to post WW2 Britain, his idea that the Russians are sub human parasites would not have gone down well. In 1914 millions happily marched to their deaths to fight for the freedom of noble Serbia. By the late nineties the Serbs had become an evil people, no one cared about Serbian majority area's in Kosovo, Bosnia or Croatia's right to self determination.

And it must be added the Anna Frankinov's of this world, teen age Russian girls don't have to hide in attic's, the Liberals manage to avoid the more extreme (tragic) absurdities of Nazi racism. But yet for all the nuance, the Liberal and Nazi world views have the same foundation, some peoples, some volks are good and some peoples, some volks are bad.

[noemon]

The civilians in Gaza deserve what they get because they support Hamas. There are no civilians in Gaza. <---- OK

The civilians in Israel deserve what they get because they support the Israeli government. There are no civilians in Israel. <--- Not OK

Palestine weaponizing civilians, both Israelis and Palestinians <-------- OK, "they are desperate freedom fighters".
Israel retaliating on the hiding places militants hide behind civilians <-----------------Not OK, "they are a western colonial project, Israel should permit these militants to grow in strength and weapons so they can launch more raids to abduct and kill Israeli civilians".

Muslims all over the world supported by westerners all over the west claim that the Jews made an error going to the Middle-East to build their homes. They need to pack up and leave to go nowhere. <----------------OK

Israelis: we took this land fair and square, let us live our lives and you go live your lives wherever you will find happiness, the world is full of rich Muslim countries where you can make good lives as self-determined Muslims, we do not have elsewhere to go to be free and self-determined Jews <-------------Not OK.

Muslims should control all Muslim, Christian and Jewish Holy Sites. <--------OK
Jews controlling Jewish holy sites in Israel <---------Not OK
Christians controlling Christian Holy Sites in Istanbul, Kossovo, Black Sea, Syria, Lebanon, & Armenia <---------Not OK.

Muslims rendering the Aghia Sophia into a Mosque, weaponising religion and globally refusing to accept defeat in Israel <-----OK
Christians and Jews responding to this Muslim Holy War with a Crusade <------- Not OK.

1) No civilian deserves what they get.
2) Blame for what they get lies with their governments, evidently.
3) Hamas has weaponized both Israeli and Palestinian civilians in deed and in fact. The blame lies with those that have weaponized them as well as those that cheer on them for weaponizing those civilians.
"Desperate times call for desperate measures", pundits claim to brush this off as acceptable and ok. But is it really?
Why is the desperate measure of weaponising civilians OK? But not the traditionally desperate measure of transferring these populations inside Saudi, Turkey, Egypt and Jordan, not OK?

Why is it better for Palestinians fighting on their own a global Muslim herculean objective of recovering Jerusalem? Instead of living their lives in Qatar, Jeddah, Turkey and Jordan?

Did the Greeks weaponise, Greek civilians in Istanbul? Did the Armenians weaponise the inhabitants of Artsakh?

Why did they not really? Is it perhaps because the civilians of Greek people and Armenian people would never accept such a fate and would punish any government of their own that would impose something like that on them?

Why would Armenians and Greeks blame their government for turning them into human-shields, while the Palestinians blame the Jews for their predicament?

We keep compartmentalising this issue as one between Palestinians and Israelis, when in fact Israel is historically attacked by a coalition of Arab states and when the entire Muslim world from Pakistan to Saudi, Turkey, Qatar pro-actively supports the Intifada.

Muslims supporting Muslims<------------OK
Westerners supporting westerners<-----------Not OK.

Saudi, Turkey, pro-actively ethnic-cleansing their enemies <------OK "We sad but shit happens"
Saudi, Turkey refusing the same terms they impose to others, for their Palestine project <----- Not OK. "We will turn the world upside down, guilt-trip our own enemies, so that Saudi and Turkish proxies, never have to accept the terms Saudis and Turks impose to others as we speak". <-----OK

[wat0n]

What is the saying "The Palestinians never miss a chance, to miss a chance." There have been many chances for both sides that have been missed.

Indeed, but it is also true there hasn't been a real chance to miss a chance to speak of since at least 15 years.

FWIW the worst one was by Shamir by rejecting the Jordanian offer to take the West Bank in 1987. That would have avoided all this.

And yet, until recently the streets had been filled with Israeli's who would disagree with you as Netanyahu - who was himself under investigation - sort to reform the Israeli judicial system.

Yes, as you'd expect in a democracy. I don't get your point here.

You don't see something like that in Gaza because Hamas is quick to brutally repress any showing of dissent, since it can.

Trying to cloud or distract with this comment, which just seems to be obvious obfuscation?

Not at all, just underscoring Israel is a democracy and as such it's not strange for many sectors of society to not just hold different opinions but also push for the government policy they want. Hence the inconsistent policies in its dealings with the West Bank.

Doubtful, I am already seeing comments such as "Your either with us, or with them" doing the rounds, I think the right will capitalise on this attack to quash dissenting voices. I would expect the vilification of groups such as Breaking the Silence or Peace Now to be next....

Breaking the Silence actually condemned the massacre calling for what it was (unlike many in the progressive Western left).

Israelis regard themselves as being at war, the domestic political fallout will express itself once the war ends (in an election of course).

This was Israel's 9/11, just like right after the actual 9/11 the public is cohesively focused on the war effort. But Netanyahu is toast no matter what, he's lost any prestige about being King Bibi, the smartest kid in the hood.

More and more I see this is the only outcome. We can see the hostility towards Jews that has been instilled in the Gaza population in the barbaric deeds that have been committed by this horrible attack. Yet we have also seen years of bigotry towards Palestinians that have become ingrained in Israeli law with their own Nuremberg Race Laws that grant superiority to Jews.

No such laws (no, the Nation-State law is not a Nuremberg Law), but I otherwise agree. You can see many in Israel lost hope in a two state solution, and surveys show those Israelis and Palestinians who don't believe in one will push for an exclusionary one state solution. This is one thing both can actually agree on - neither wants a binational state just like both can agree they don't want the UN to control Jerusalem or the holy sites.

But then again, how can a line be drawn under this when there is so much barbarity going on in the world? Russia invades Ukraine, China is imprisoning millions, religious extremism and the growth of the right-wing, the US can't even prosecute a corrupt real estate salesman. Humanity really has not advanced.... and history will repeat itself.

Please leave your pretense of moral superiority at home. Yes, the world is more insecure and democracies are becoming more dysfunctional yet the Progressive Westerner's pretense of being morally superior, as someone looking at the wretched world from the Ivory Tower who needs to give a lecture on how wrong & evil everyone is, is part of the problem.

[skinster]

Ah, the disingenuous wat0n pops out sooner or later and starts debating different points from those being debated as if that isn't paid attention to - lol at Tailz noticing it too - despite this being his style for so long. I actually thought you might have grown out of being full of shit, but I guess that thing about leopards and spots rings true. Here goes, to show your tendency to change a debate whenever it doesn't work in your favour.

Many among those 3.3 million are dead.

First, the reason of this 3.3 million figure I gave was to prove how many Israelis are not natives to the land. The "many" who are dead on the Israeli side are still below the number of Palestinians who have been killed this year by the Israeli forces that actually have a military and the 4th most powerful army in the world.

Also, the many who are dead on the Israeli side are actually Israeli soldiers and cops. Whereas the many who are regularly killed on the Palestinian side are civilians, because Israel targets civilians indiscriminately as it always has.

So?

So, the point was, your own source states that before Europeans decided Palestine would be stolen and renamed 'Israel', the population of Jews in Palestine was 32% (even though there was a lot of Zionist immigration before 1948). That population was fine living in peace with Christians and Muslims, by the way. That changed when Israel was declared a country which imposed privileges to Jews and the rest of the population turned into second-class citizens, at best.

But my point again, being, that the vast majority of Israelis in Palestine are not natives of the land, but are in face European, American, Russian and elsewhere Arab Jews. That was the point that we debated and then you moved on to "So?" like....yes, that's so. That's why.

And let's not forget, Zionism as an ideology is a European settler-colonial movement which Zionists in the late 1800s were much more honest then their racist cheerleaders, like you, are today.

Funny, this sounds a lot like those Europeans who regard Muslims (religious or not) born there as perpetually foreign because their parents and grandparents immigrated there. Doesn't that even include yourself?

That analogy might work if Muslims came over to European lands in the 1940s onward, stole people's homes and lands, put millions of Europeans into a concentration camp like what Gaza is today, and millions more forced to live under a Muslim supremacist military occupation like what we see in the West Bank who are denied rights to travel and where, for instance, Muslims were allowed to carry guns and kill Europeans with impunity while the occupied Europeans were not even allowed knives and were forced to live daily lives of oppression which included nightly home raids, movement between checkpoints, separate roads for them and their Muslim overlords to walk and drive upon, the torture of their children in Muslim prisons as systemic policy and the everyday murder of Europeans by these Muslim overlords with complete and utter impunity.

So your analogy sucks. If you think the Muslim overlords in the above are bad, you should have the same view of Israelis too, unless you're a racist supremacist akin to nazis.

Why are Jews always special, somehow?

I listed a lot of Jews who disagree with your antisemitic idea that being Jewish means supporting a racist settler-colony that is in fact what is antisemitic, since Palestinians are semites. But you keep trying to use the "but Jew" line as if anyone falls for that crap anyway. This is not Jews, this is Zionists who are the savages of this story. Bear in mind, a lot of non-Jews, like American Evangelicals, are Zionists too. And of course, people like you, who hates Arabs so much you'll defend Zionist supremacists, despite it not being of any value to you, and despite the obvious fact that someone of your skintone would be treated just as harshly as Palestinians would.

But cuck away..

Israel is a democracy

Israel is an imperialist ethnosupremacist colony. Democracies don't deny rights to their population, impose racist military occupations upon them and force over two million people, including a million children, inside a concentration camp that they've repeatedly carpet-bombed to rubble. Maybe Nazi Germany was a democracy too given some of the similarities they have with the Zionist entity..

[wat0n]

Lol @skinster justifying the massacre of over 1000 people now, and also being dishonest enough to pretend those 3.3 million JVL refers to correspond people who are currently alive and not the total number of people who immigrated into Israel since 1948 whether they're currently alive or not, and stupid enough to believe anyone would fall for it.

The figure is clear: 78% of Israeli Jews were born in Israel, your bigotry against them doesn't change the facts.

Also, @Tailz is trying to draw a false equivalence between Israel and Hamas, and failing at that for the reasons stated above. Hence his dishonest accusation of "obfuscation" instead of providing an actual argument.

Speaking of obfuscation, I can't think of a better example of that than referring to demographics from a century ago to justify a massacre.

[noemon]

That analogy might work if Muslims came over to European lands in the 1940s onward, stole people's homes and lands, put millions of Europeans into a concentration camp like what Gaza is today, and millions more forced to live under a Muslim supremacist military occupation like what we see in the West Bank who are denied rights to travel and where, for instance, Muslims were allowed to carry guns and kill Europeans with impunity while the occupied Europeans were not even allowed knives and were forced to live daily lives of oppression which included nightly home raids, movement between checkpoints, separate roads for them and their Muslim overlords to walk and drive upon, the torture of their children in Muslim prisons as systemic policy and the everyday murder of Europeans by these Muslim overlords with complete and utter impunity.

Muslims did and still do all that in Europe, Africa and Asia.

Muslims came to Asia Minor, Middle-East, North-Africa and imposed slavery, skewerings and impalements. They forbade rayas from riding horses and called first dibs on the nights of Christian weddings. They came to Constantinople because their Holy Book told them to.

They came to Cyprus in 1974 and inside Armenia 2 weeks ago. They came in the Balkans in the 90's.

I listed a lot of Jews who disagree with your antisemitic idea that being Jewish means supporting a racist settler-colony that is in fact what is antisemitic, since Palestinians are semites. But you keep trying to use the "but Jew" line as if anyone falls for that crap anyway. This is not Jews, this is Zionists who are the savages of this story. Bear in mind, a lot of non-Jews, like American Evangelicals, are Zionists too. And of course, people like you, who hates Arabs so much you'll defend Zionist supremacists, despite it not being of any value to you, and despite the obvious fact that someone of your skintone would be treated just as harshly as Palestinians would.

Here is a list of Muslims supporting Israel and denouncing Islamic terrorism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_su ... or%20Dahri.

Israel is an imperialist ethnosupremacist colony. Democracies don't deny rights to their population, impose racist military occupations upon them and force over two million people, including a million children, inside a concentration camp that they've repeatedly carpet-bombed to rubble. Maybe Nazi Germany was a democracy too given some of the similarities they have with the Zionist entity..

I do not see Israel expanding beyond the borders it has declared. I do see Turkey & Azerbaijan though constantly expanding their Islamic ethnosupremacist colonies towards all directions. I see the Ottoman Muslims in my Balkan neighborhood enlarging their states and expanding at the expense of Christian Serbs. I see the same Ottoman Muslims expanding in Cyprus, Syria, Armenia as we speak while at the same time openly arguing that "they will throw the Jews to the sea".

[skinster]

blah blah blah)

Your own source shows the percentage of Jews in Palestine during the ethnic cleansing of Palestine for a couple of years before 1948 which made them less than a third of the population. My point stands: the vast majority are not natives to Palestine. Palestinians, however, are.

The figure is clear: 78% of Israeli Jews were born in Israel, your bigotry against them doesn't change the facts.

And the twisting of debate continues. The question of the demographics was a separate debate with noeman that you butted into. You are aware that people can simply scroll up to see how full of shit you are?

Also, spare the sanctimony of "justifying massacres" when you've defended the exact same on Palestine every time they've happened and ignore the much greater massacre on Gaza today. Also, lol at you accusing me of bigotry when you defend the apartheid(racist) state. Zionists are a hilarious bunch.

Muslims did and still do all that in Europe, Africa and Asia.

wat0n tried to compare Muslim immigration in Europe to Zionist colonialism in Palestine. Name one European country that is analogous to Israel.

I do not see Israel expanding beyond the borders it has declared.

Then you are yet again showing your ignorance because Israel hasn't declared its borders and it cannot if it continues to expand into Palestinian territory.

As I said before, you clearly don't know much about this issue so it might do you good to read up a little before posting such nonsense.

That you got it wrong about Ukraine/Russia should give you a bit of pause, but instead you ignore my last response to you and start up again above.

[noemon]

wat0n tried to compare Muslim immigration in Europe to Zionist colonialism in Palestine. Name one European country that is analogous to Israel.

I already did. Turkey, Azerbaijan, Bosnia, Kossovo, TRNC.

Then you are yet again showing your ignorance because Israel hasn't declared its borders and it cannot if it continues to expand into Palestinian territory.

Azerbaijan continues to expand in Armenian territory. TRNC continues to expand in Cypriot territory. Last week they bulldozed their way through the UN Green Zone. They are expanding in Syria & Kurdistan as we speak.

As I said before, you clearly don't know much about this issue so it might do you good to read up a little before posting such nonsense.

That you got it wrong about Ukraine/Russia should give you a bit of pause, but instead you ignore my last response to you and start up again above.

Get a grip and stop pretending we are all ignorant people because you have no reply. I did not ignore anything from you but cohesively responded to your claims. On the other hand, you have not responded to any of my arguments and have instead preferred to spam your way through with slogans.

[skinster]

I already did. Turkey, Azerbaijan, Bosnia, Kossovo, TRNC.

Saying words doesn't prove your claims and none of this countries are like the European settler colony called Israel.

Get a grip and stop pretending we are all ignorant people because you have no reply. I did not ignore anything from you but cohesively responded to your claims. On the other hand, you have not responded to any of my arguments and have instead preferred to spam your way through with slogans.

There's a whole post on the previous post responding to you that you ignored, with a bunch of questions that you're unable to answer because you seem to have learned about Palestine this weekend, by the look of it.

I think it's you who needs to get a grip because I am pointing out your ignorance: Israel has no borders declared, particularly because some of its territory is occupying the land of four other countries (Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt and Syria). Israel is an imperialist expansionist apartheid state. I think maybe you should really side with the fash in Ukraine to be consistent with your position here. Otherwise, you're all over the place.

[noemon]

Since you are accusing of not responding to this stuff, then here you go:

Oh dear. Who's preventing Israeli self-determination? You may have noticed, they have a state with rights et all. It's the Palestinians who don't, even though Balfour Agreement stated explicitly that Palestinians would have their own state too on 45% of historic Palestine.

You are openly arguing that Jews need to give Israel back to the Palestinians. You are openly supporting an organization that openly declares that Jews must be pushed to the sea.

It means victory in self-determination and from the historical injustices committed against them. What are you talking about? Because that's the part you're quoting me on.

What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about retaking? Do you understand what a one-state solution means? I mean, I explained it already but it seems like it might need to be repeated since you're asking strange questions now.

Under what kind of reality do the Palestinians reclaim their properties in Israel?

Aha, because Hamas is for a 1-state solution with equal rights for all.

And I am supposed to do what with this? Serious question.

On the other hand I asked you explicitly, why are you telling Ukrainians to give up since there is no point in carrying on, but you are not saying the same to Palestinians?

I asked you twice, twice you ignored it and I doubt you will ever reply either to me or to your own self.

Saying words doesn't prove your claims and none of this countries are like the European settler colony called Israel.

Saying words does not prove anything indeed. It is actions. Turks bulldozed their way through the UN buffer zone last week.

Fact. They kicked all the Greeks out of North Cyprus in 1974. They are bombing and ethnic-cleansing Kurds as we speak.

They cleansed Artsakh of Armenians, 2 weeks ago.

They pogromed the Istanbul Greek community in 1955 and eradicated it.

How is that different?

[Fasces]

Lol @skinster justifying the massacre of over 1000 people now.

At least as many have died in Gaza since the bombing began, where more than half the population is children under 18. Let's be consistent with our bloodlust - either its all OK or none of it.

Hamas is a corrupt militia motivated by perverse incentives. So is Netanhanyu. The whole scenario is a shit sandwich, so why try to absolve Israel?

[noemon]

At least as many have died in Gaza since the bombing began, where more than half the population is children under 18. Let's be consistent with our bloodlust - either its all OK or none of it.

Hamas is a corrupt militia motivated by perverse incentives. So is Netanhanyu. The whole scenario is a shit sandwich, so why try to absolve Israel?

Yes let's be consistent and say that without the recent Hamas attack, neither of these 2 events would have transpired.

Let's be even more consistent and say that without global Islamic fundamentalism, this issue would not even exist and millions of lives would have been saved over the past several decades.

[annatar1914]

Yes let's be consistent and say that without the recent Hamas attack, neither of these 2 events would have transpired.

Let's be even more consistent and say that without global Islamic fundamentalism, this issue would not even exist and millions of lives would have been saved over the past several decades.

@noemon :

Over 14 centuries. But who's counting?

[Fasces]

Yes let's be consistent and say that without the recent Hamas attack, neither of these 2 events would have transpired.

Let's be even more consistent and say that without global Islamic fundamentalism, this issue would not even exist and millions of lives would have been saved over the past several decades.

We can jump dates back all the time. Who empowered the global Islamic fundamentalists at the expense of the secular Arab socialist movement? Who promised Arabs their freedom and gave it to someone else? It's all chickens and eggs of revenge back to 2000 BC. There's no justifiable answer, not really.

Genocide yesterday doesn't justify genocide today. Hamas' unjustifiable attack was yesterday, and Israel's unjustifiable counter attack is today.

If Israel had just killed them all off back in 1948, they'd apologize and be sorry and the world would move on.

Future conquerors take note.

viewtopic.php?p=14381979#p14381979

We're stuck in a geopolitical Albanian blood feud where there are zero 'correct' answers.

[Rich]

Israel is an imperialist ethnosupremacist colony. Democracies don't deny rights to their population, impose racist military occupations upon them and force over two million people, including a million children, inside a concentration camp that they've repeatedly carpet-bombed to rubble. Maybe Nazi Germany was a democracy too given some of the similarities they have with the Zionist entity..

That's a filthy Marxist lie. Israel has never been an imperialist project except in the sense that pretty much every nation has been keen to protect and expand their borders. Israel came about because of Jewish or Zionist if you prefer control of Congress. The Balfour declaration was the British government paying off the Zionists for bringing America into the WW1. Now it is often said that the US would have entered into WWI on the allied side with or without Zionist support. That may or may not be true, but it is irrelevant. The British government clearly felt it was better to risk alienating tens, maybe even hundreds of millions of Muslims both in the central power's Empire's and in their own, than been seen as welshing on their deal with international Zionism.

The Zionists although never a monolithic block on the whole switched sides during WW1. I want to emphasise there was nothing evil about this behavior, the Zionists were only doing what other small nation nationalists such as the Romanians, Bulgarians and Italians were doing. However it is also understandable that German nationalists (over) reacted badly to what they saw as a betrayal.

Once the Nazis came to power, the Zionists formed an alliance of convenience with them in order to maximise Jewish immigration to Palestine. Yet again I must emphasise absolutely nothing in the slightest bit evil or sinister about this. The pre war alliance with the Nazis is nothing to be ashamed of anymore than Ukrainian nationalists need to be ashamed of their later temporary alliance with the Nazi. Weak powers must look to make alliances with strong powers. But it does put paid to this Marxist drivel that the Zionists are agents of big capital, agents of Imperialism. Zionists serve Israel and no one else.

There has been a myth around that FDR and Truman liked Jews. They didn't, but they both felt compelled to fall in line with Jewish control over Congress. Hence we get the joke that was partition plan. The Zionists had the support of Stalin and the control of Congress and that was enough to control, bully and bribe the UN into giveing them what they wanted (Or most of it, the Zionists have perfected ingratitude into an art form). The Zionists were not agents of American capital and they were not agents of Stalinist Communism. They were out purely for themselves. When the Soviet Union switched to supporting the Arabs, Israel was a huge mill stone round our neck in the Cold War. Apartheid South Africa, with its control of the cape was a useful ally, but Israel only ever served Israel.

The Muslim powers and the Soviet Union were not natural allies. The Soviet Union controlling vast numbers of Muslims. It was our support for Israel that pushed them into the Soviets embrace. Our support for Israel in the Cold War went totally against our interests and hence against the interest of British, French and American finance capital.

[noemon]

We can jump dates back all the time. Who empowered the global Islamic fundamentalists at the expense of the secular Arab socialist movement? Who promised Arabs their freedom and gave it to someone else? It's all chickens and eggs of revenge back to 2000 BC. There's no justifiable answer, not really.

Genocide yesterday doesn't justify genocide today. Hamas' unjustifiable attack was yesterday, and Israel's unjustifiable counter attack is today.

We 're not jumping dates, Hamas's attack is today, not yesterday. It is holding Israeli hostages, today.

But kudos for a sly attempt of a straw-man, where there are no real answers except for yours.

[Fasces]

Honestly @noemon, on this issue I lean toward you. They got conquered. Move on.

My major sticking issue is half of Gaza is kids. I don't like that they're considered acceptably guilty of Hamas' decision. Those Israeli bombs are killing kids and it's OK to feel icky about it.