Israel-Palestinian War 2023 - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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#15290314
Looks like a bunch of virtue-signalling. There were hundreds of Palestinian flags and that chant at the protest at the Israeli embassy yesterday, which moved on to take over Piccadilly Circus.
#15290363
@Sandzak @Drlee @ingliz @noemon

Given that Netanyahu wanted to shove down judicial reforms so that he could make himself the first dictator of Israel, he helped to make it possible that what 900 or 1,000 Israeli civilians were killed by Israel's enemies? Netanyahu is to blame for this tragedy given he is the Prime Minister of Israel, divided Israeli society, lowered the combat readiness of the IDF, and probably caused many in the Israeli intelligence community to refuse to do their jobs because Netanyahu wanted to be Israel's first dictator instead of respecting his country's constitution and the idea of checks and balances and free and fair elections. And this needs to be a cautionary tale for Republicans here in the US who insist on tearing up he US constitution, getting rid of free and fair elections, dividing American society and making Trump dictator of the US.
#15290385
Neo wrote:Netanyahu is to blame for this tragedy given he is the Prime Minister of Israel,

After every Muslim atrocity the desperate hunt is on to find some Infidel or Infidels to place the responsibility. Of course Israel is slightly different as many people also like to blame the Gentiles when Jews commit a atrocities. Speak to any Marxist and its not not Jewish nationalism or racist Orthodox Judaism to blame but the Gentile imperialists back in America.

However I think many mourning Israelis may be thinking that Hamas would probably never have dared to commit this provocation if Trump were President. I suspect that Hamas are relying on the probability that Biden will make some strong sounding soundbites, but that if it comes to the point where Hamas are seriously threatened with destruction, that Biden will intervene to save them.
#15290388
Neo wrote:@Sandzak @Drlee @ingliz @noemon

Given that Netanyahu wanted to shove down judicial reforms so that he could make himself the first dictator of Israel, he helped to make it possible that what 900 or 1,000 Israeli civilians were killed by Israel's enemies? Netanyahu is to blame for this tragedy given he is the Prime Minister of Israel, divided Israeli society, lowered the combat readiness of the IDF, and probably caused many in the Israeli intelligence community to refuse to do their jobs because Netanyahu wanted to be Israel's first dictator instead of respecting his country's constitution and the idea of checks and balances and free and fair elections. And this needs to be a cautionary tale for Republicans here in the US who insist on tearing up he US constitution, getting rid of free and fair elections, dividing American society and making Trump dictator of the US.


Yes, it is part of the reason why this started. The internal instability that Netanyahu caused showed weakness. Another reason why this happened is because external actors also needed a war for internal reasons.(Turkey, Lebanon, Iran and even Hamas itself may be Qatar but I don't know about Qatar) And finally Israelis current intelligence chief/minister is a real crazy right winger who didn't know how to do his job and only got the job because of politics as I understand.
#15290390
Neo wrote:@Sandzak @Drlee @ingliz @noemon

Given that Netanyahu wanted to shove down judicial reforms so that he could make himself the first dictator of Israel, he helped to make it possible that what 900 or 1,000 Israeli civilians were killed by Israel's enemies? Netanyahu is to blame for this tragedy given he is the Prime Minister of Israel, divided Israeli society, lowered the combat readiness of the IDF, and probably caused many in the Israeli intelligence community to refuse to do their jobs because Netanyahu wanted to be Israel's first dictator instead of respecting his country's constitution and the idea of checks and balances and free and fair elections. And this needs to be a cautionary tale for Republicans here in the US who insist on tearing up he US constitution, getting rid of free and fair elections, dividing American society and making Trump dictator of the US.


Indeed, he has eroded Israel's international image, made a withdrawal from the West Bank more costly and - worst of all - led to the worst security failure in Israel since at least 1973 by making Israeli politics even more dysfunctional than usual.

He'll have to face his responsibilities when the time comes, right now those chiefly responsible have to face the consequences of their actions first and be permanently stopped.
#15290419
wat0n wrote:Indeed, he has eroded Israel's international image, made a withdrawal from the West Bank more costly and - worst of all - led to the worst security failure in Israel since at least 1973 by making Israeli politics even more dysfunctional than usual.

He'll have to face his responsibilities when the time comes, right now those chiefly responsible have to face the consequences of their actions first and be permanently stopped.

Haaretz wrote:Netanyahu Must Go Now, Not After the Gaza War

There is a clear and present danger that all his wartime decisions against Hamas will be polluted by personal, legal and petty political considerations. He has been a poor prime minister from Lebanon to China


Alon Pinkas

Oct 9, 2023


Benjamin Netanyahu should be removed as prime minister immediately – not “after the war,” not after a plea bargain in his corruption trial, not after an election. Now.

No one expects him to resign, not only because he lacks the decency and integrity to do so after arguably the worst day in Israel’s history. It's also because of the criminal charges he faces.

Resigning is counterproductive to his personal interests and they, not the State of Israel, are what counts. His trial, not Israel's security, is his priority. He has lost all legitimacy and can't be trusted, certainly at a time of war when such monumental decisions need to be made.

That he's the first prime minister in the history of democracies to wage war on his own country, on its institutions and foundations, is clear. For years, but especially since he launched his antidemocratic constitutional coup in January, he has declared war on Israel’s elites, the judicial system, the checks and balances and by extension the military he views as an elitist cabal undermining his political agenda.

The popular pushback to his attempted regime change now looks like distant history, because Saturday October 7 wasn't only a tragedy on an epic scale, it was a debacle and an inflection point. Netanyahu and his cabinet callously betrayed the sacred trust, the core of Israelis' compact with their government: security.

For this there is no redemption, no contrition, no salvation. He must go and he must go now. No excuses, no political deals, no mitigating circumstances. For all intents and purposes, he's incapacitated and can't discharge the duties of his office.

His government is extremist, messianic, hollow, inept and inherently kakistocratic – government of the worst. It buckled in the first moment of crisis. He and his dysfunctional ministers betrayed Israel, and effectively his government is no longer functional, except maybe for the defense minister.

He isn't Winston Churchill, to whom he likens himself, and he isn't Abraham Lincoln. No one looks up to him at the ultimate moment of tragedy and crisis; only sycophants trust him.

His record is one of incompetence and gung ho delusion – and there is a clear and present danger that all his wartime decisions will be polluted by personal, legal and petty political considerations. He can't be trusted, nor is he credible to manage the war that is only just beginning.

His constitutional coup has categorically harmed national security and taken a high toll on the military's preparedness. He was warned about this by the military's chief of staff and by former prime ministers, defense ministers, chiefs of staff and hundreds of former generals.

In fact, in March he casually fired Defense Minister Yoav Gallant because Gallant was expected to deliver a statement arguing that Netanyahu’s constitutional coup was endangering Israel’s security. He has shown arrogant recklessness, dereliction of duty and responsibility, as well as gross negligence in managing Israel’s national security.

Now look at his foreign policy and geopolitical record. It's nothing short of abysmal. Let’s go through the areas one by one, starting with his bogus claim to fame. How ludicrous does his decade-old bragging look – that only he can save Israel, and indeed Western civilization, from the regime of the messianic mullahs?

Iran. The Islamic Republic has accumulated enough fissile material to produce five nuclear bombs, according to the Pentagon. It has reached unprecedented levels of uranium enrichment. Meanwhile, it has further deepened its hold in Syria, Lebanon and Gaza while tightening relations with Russia and China.

Hezbollah in Lebanon. Thanks to Iranian material support and political mentorship, the Shi'ite organization is as strong as ever. After what has happened with Hamas in Gaza, the arrogant statement that “Hezbollah is deterred” should never be taken seriously again.

The Palestinians. Here the record is just as ominous. Hamas has launched the most lethal attack on Israel ever. Whatever the outcome of the current war, during Netanyahu’s reign Hamas has become as strong as ever, armed as ever, audacious and murderous as ever.

Netanyahu, the man who just a few years ago vainly pledged to “obliterate Hamas,” has done nothing. Absolutely nothing. He has effectively strengthened Hamas, allowed tens of millions of dollars from the Gulf to be funneled to the terror group to implode the Palestinian Authority so he can proceed with annexation.

Under Netanyahu, the PA's weakness and ineptness has brought Israel closer than ever to the unviability of the two-state model. Israel is dangerously close to a binational state where reality is binary: Either Israel ceases to be a Jewish state or becomes an apartheid state. A majority of Israelis want neither.

In the international arena Netanyahu boasted during the 2019 and 2020 election campaigns that he's “in a different league.” Those huge posters showed him with Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump, but in this arena where he pretends to be a world leader, the record is strikingly unimpressive.

The United States. He has not been invited to the White House in the 10 months since his new term began. The Americans' criticism, including by President Joe Biden, of his constitutional coup is unprecedented.

Russia. His friendship and mutual admiration with Putin was so fruitful that Russia is now aligned with Iran, buying drones and other weapons. Even his morally depraved policy of not standing with Ukraine – to be fair, a policy he inherited from the previous government led by Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid – hasn’t won him any points with Putin.

China. Two months ago, Netanyahu ostentatiously declared that he was invited by Xi Jinping to Beijing, while a “senior source” added that the idea was to signal to Biden that “Israel has options.” Not only is China expanding relations with Iran, it has also been condemned by Israel for its “balanced” stance on Hamas’ massacre of civilians.

Is Netanyahu's record so dismal? Of course not. He has forged a great friendship with Viktor Orbán, the towering intellect from Hungary. And he spent 25 minutes with French President Emmanuel Macron earlier this year. Plus he really likes Narendra Modi of India, and while Hamas was planning its attack he flew all the way to California to chat with Elon Musk about artificial intelligence. Stellar.

Netanyahu cannot and should not be trusted to manage Israel at this juncture. The mechanics for removing him are complicated and there is no clear path. But placing any trust in a man who got Israel here is far more irresponsible.

There shouldn't be a grand coalition under his leadership.
#15290423
Neo wrote:I view the Hamas attack as barbaric and this is going to create a cycle where both sides are going to lose a whole lot of people.

You seem to be hinting that this deed is going to start a cycle of violence, but this is already the continuation of an already existing cycle of violence that has been ongoing for years.

Neo wrote:Another thing, where the hell is the Republican House of Representatives in all this? Are they sitting around with their thumb up their asses not giving a damn about our allies in Ukraine and Israel as well as not giving a damn U.S. national security?

Were not the Republicans trying to draw down the US from supporting Ukraine previously?
Yet if I am not mistaken, the Republicans have been quite eager to offer aid to Israel?

Neo wrote:Are these the people who are supposed to keep us safe!? I say this to the Republicans, what the fuck over? Where the fuck you at? Below is the chaos of this conflict. Hamas kills Israeli civilians and Israel in return kills Palestinian civilians. Its war.

This is not a war, this is a conflict that has been going on for years. It's just hit boil for the moment, it will return to a low-key simmer in a short while.
#15290436
@Tailz

This crisis, if anything has shown the failure of Republicans here in the United States to govern. We have an ally in trouble and the Republicans wanted to selfishly play games because all they they care about is power instead of governing. This shows that Republicans can't be trusted with power.
#15290439
Neo wrote:This crisis, if anything has shown the failure of Republicans here in the United States to govern.

:lol:

Really? We have a Democrat President and since the beginning of 2023 we've had a Democrat majority in the Senate, which has the responsibility for signing offf on treaties. Now look I love a good Culture War rumble same as the next man. I don't claim to be the greatest / bravest / fiercest street fighter that ever lived, but if I see a Culture War gang fight going on I know I want to get stuck in, before I even work out which side I'm going to be "fighting" on. But

Believe it or not, not every thing is about you McNulty



Believe it or not, not everything is about Trump or anti Trump. What are we actually offering the people of Gaza. What are we offering the people of Gaza even if they despise Hamas, even if they think that Islam is bollocks? Gaza is not exactly a concentration camp or a super max prison, but its not complelty not a prison. The people in Gaza are certainly not starving, but their opportunites are extremly limited comapared with what we in the West demand.

What opportunities are there for Gazans to gain wealth, prestige and status out side of the Hamas hierarchy? What if a Gazan wants to become a scientist or an astronaut? In the West the real heroes are those that prioritse their mental health and make sex abuse accusations. In the West the real heroes are those that drop out of university or pull out of a top sporting event to protect their mental health. In the West the real heroes are those that demand that the government spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on them so as they change to their true sex.

Hamas rule is entrenched in Gaza. But what does the Western Liberal narcissist demand of Gazans? That they throw their life away in a vain attempt to overthrow Hamas. And for what? Even if they got rid of Hamas does anyone really believe that the Palestinians would get a state. Does anyone really believe that the Zionists wouldn't think up some excuse to put it off on the never never?

The situation of Gaza and Palestine long precedes Trumps decent on the Mar a Lago escalator. The situation was not created by Trump or the reaction to Trump and would not have been solved even if Trump had never entered politics.
#15290440
Neo wrote:This crisis, if anything has shown the failure of Republicans here in the United States to govern.

Only this crisis? What? The assault on your own capital didn't tell you?

Neo wrote:We have an ally in trouble and the Republicans wanted to selfishly play games because all they they care about is power instead of governing.

The Republican Party has been like that for years. Every time a Democrat is in power, they fuck your system like a kid chucking a tantrum!

The Tea Party, the Birther movement, have you really not been paying attention?

Neo wrote:This shows that Republicans can't be trusted with power.

No shit!

And yet, you could still end up with Trump next year. Good luck with that...
#15290446
Beren wrote:There shouldn't be a grand coalition under his leadership.


I don't really see another option right now. Like, for starters, who would replace him? Do we even know who would? Can the Israeli government afford going through that process at the moment?
#15290449
wat0n wrote:I don't really see another option right now. Like, for starters, who would replace him? Do we even know who would? Can the Israeli government afford going through that process at the moment?

I don't know but his leadership will definitely lead to another disaster.
#15290452
Beren wrote:I don't know but his leadership will definitely lead to another disaster.


I think it's why there needs to be a national unity government, he can't and won't make those decisions alone. Yet there can't be a power vacuum right now.
#15290460
wat0n wrote:I think it's why there needs to be a national unity government, he can't and won't make those decisions alone. Yet there can't be a power vacuum right now.

He's going to take advantage of the situation and stabilise his position.
#15290478
If Netanyahu had an ounce of decency, he would resign and make way for a national unity government under a Supreme Court Judge.

This whole thing should last a few hours. No vaccum created. Standard practice across many countries.
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