[Ixa]

Hm, interesting theory.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Hmm...news flash...we DON'T support Black Nationalism

And news flash...Zionism isn't about "liberating the Jewish people". Its as much of that as the Taliban were about "liberating the muslim people"

Stop being such an ass...no communists support Zionism. Zionism is fascism, its racial discrimination, its the ideology of the Jewish ruling class.

Death to Zionism!

[Ixa]

I agree. Good points.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Nope. ....Wrong. ....Wrong yet again. ....

I stand defeated...

I do, and all Communists should.

What you do is your business...just don't bring communism into it.

It is largely about stopping oppression against the Jewish people.

...by oppressing everyone else...

The Taliban are tyrants. Zionists, on the other hand, not not done anything
tyranical.

..except kill tens of thousands based on their ethnicity...ethnicaly cleanse an entire nation...and keep 3 million Palestineans in a Nazi-style ghetto...and promote ethnic schoivinism...

Yes...a very bad analogy on my part

[Deicidus]

``You are determined by your actions``

I dont care about what some self declared communists think about the Zionists. first, not because they claim to be communists really mean that they are.

Second, whatever Zionists claim to be or claim to think is far from what they do. From their actions, they want to clean the entire land of Israel from anything non jewish. Thats what Zionism really is, racism. Reconising the fact that jews are apart from others. Not only that, but they can decide of the faith of an entire people, to wich they choosed destruction. After all, they are the CHOSEN people, right. They must be always right and us bastards of god must always be wrong, even inferior. Thank you Zionism for keeping more than 3 000 000 people on the limit of death. Thank you Zionism for taking away an entire people's dignity away and flushing it down the toilet.


Why dont you try taking a tour of camps in Cisjordania like Jenin or Tarla. Seing from your own eyes what your Zionist friends do to these people. And if you claim that Zionists have nothing to do with this, maybe you can enlight us on how Zionists try to put a stop to it, if you can find a way how.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

And news flash...Zionism isn't about "liberating the Jewish people".

It is largely about stopping oppression against the Jewish people.

I don't really see how this is even the case. The Russian and Negro Jewish minorities in Israel are exploited to the points of practical ethnic segregation.

[Ixa]

Nope. ....Wrong. ....Wrong yet again. ....

I stand defeated...

You do. Present baseless claims without justifying them, expect
baseless claims to the contrary in return.

What you do is your business...just don't bring communism into it.

Marxist-Leninists are FOR ending oppression of ALL nationalities.

It is largely about stopping oppression against the Jewish people.

...by oppressing everyone else...

Wrong.

The Taliban are tyrants. Zionists, on the other hand, not not done anything
tyranical.

..except kill tens of thousands based on their ethnicity...ethnicaly cleanse an entire nation...and keep 3 million Palestineans in a Nazi-style ghetto...and promote ethnic schoivinism...

Of course, I agree.

if you

I see.

Yes...a very bad analogy on my part

I am glad that you concur.

[Ixa]

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Zionism is about liberating the Jewish people, who have been oppressed
for over 4000 years,

4,000 years?? No no..I think its 35,000 years!!

Marxist-Leninists are FOR ending oppression of ALL nationalities.

Yes...but not through reationary means....like Zionism.

They have killed innocent Arabs, but have never targeted them. If a
suicide bomber is threatening your life, and the lives of your fellow
countrymen, by all means destroy him, even if several innocents have to
die with him. It is self-defence. And are you forgetting that the Israel
fought a war against the Arab aggressors without killing a single
innocent civilian?

And...which war was this mind you???

Israel never targeted Arab civilians?? Even before it was created...it was the policy of the Zionists to drive out the Palestineans by force in order to steal their land. Thats targeting civilians...

True...Israel isn't interested in massacring and whipping out the Arabs...but neither was Milosevich. They all want to simply drive them off the land...If that makes it more acceptable to you...

Oh..and on the sucide bomber thing...the same could apply that if Zionism is driving your family off their land and killing your neighbors...than by all means...destroy Zionism. Its self-defense...

Yet another person confuses "Zionism" with "Israel".

And yet here you are defending Israel...

[Ixa]

Yes...but not through reationary means....like Zionism.

True.

Israel never targeted Arab civilians?? Even before it was created...it was the policy of the Zionists to drive out the Palestineans by force in order to steal their land. Thats targeting civilians...

True.

True...Israel isn't interested in massacring and whipping out the Arabs...but neither was Milosevich. They all want to simply drive them off the land...If that makes it more acceptable to you...

Oh..and on the sucide bomber thing...the same could apply that if Zionism is driving your family off their land and killing your neighbors...than by all means...destroy Zionism. Its self-defence...

Veru true.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

As Alan Dershowitz said:
Many more innocent Israeli civilians have been killed during the recent spate of suicide bombings than innocent Palestinians civilians. Even more important, the Israeli civilians who have been killed have been largely women and children who were specifically targeted by Palestinian terrorists. The Palestinian civilians who were killed were not targeted by Israelis, but were killed during legitimate Israeli self-defence actions against Palestinian terrorists.

First off...WTF is Alan Dershowitz...and second of all...he is a lier...since there have been 3 times more Palestinean civilians killed in the recent Intifada than Israelis...

And third of...Palestinean "terrorists" also have the right to self-defense when Zionists try to drive them out of their land and steal it.

The notion of a Palestinian nation is a myth. Israel had become
a nation 2000 years before Islam even existed. The Jewish people
have had a presence in Israel for over 3000 years. There have
always been Jews on Israel. There was never a massive Arab
presence.

Considering that at about the begining of the 20th century there were no more than 30-40 thousand Jews in the whole of Palestine...as opposed to about 600-700 thousand Palestineans...thats not much of an argument. In your head maybe...but not in reality..

Most recently in 2000 and 2001 they could have had a state if they were prepared to stop the violence

A "state"...surrounded by a wall which steals 10% of their land...dotted with Zionist colonies which steal a lot more of their land...criss-crossed with Zionist highways connecting these colonies...and with the Israeli army given the right to invade and arrest and kill anyone anytime it wanted.

Thats not a state...thats what they have now...

"the whole of Palestinian nationalism was based on driving all Israelis out of the Middle East."

Well...YES...no one is denying this. Israel is an illegal entity...an oppressive reactionary outpost of imperialism.

I defend its right to exist and defend itself.

I am not interested in what you want to defend...

[Koba.]

I don't mean to interrupt but......

What is exactly wrong with Black Nationalism? I"m not saying that a Nationalist Black State should be created, what I am saying is that its against an obvious authority that is oppressing it. I think Black Nationalism is no different than Chechen Nationalism or Palestinian nationalism.

Is Nationalism an answer? no of course not, but its a means to an answer. By liberating one nation of people from an oppressive nation not only do we weaken the strength of an imperialist power but then immediately demonstrate that a population that they can indeed be exploited by their own kind. I of course would prefer immediate socialism but in some instances, particularly in Palestine and Chechnya we need to recognize the right to self determination before this accepted as an answer.

In short, isnt supporting black nationalism being against white fascism (united states).

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Black Nationalism seeks to divide the blacks in America into a separate country...or take them back to Africa. In a way...its anti-white racism.

Suerly they oppose white racism...but they go about it the wrong way. The blacks in America...as Marx pointed out...do not constitute a separate nation. They must not divde themselves from the class interests of the white proletariats in America...but must fight to end racism in America rather than simply abandoning it.

[Political Interest]

I support Zionism because I think that the Jewish people deserve a right to a state seeing as they have been opressed by the evil nazis

[treat2]

Do you REALLY think the goals of Fanatical Born Agains, and Islamic Fundamentalists are any different fanatics of any other religion?

Have you ever known of an Islamic Fundamentalist that sought religious diversity?

Have you ever known of a fanatical Christian that has NOT sought to convert you to Christianity?

The rancid smell of this topic is from your own garbage.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

And news flash...Zionism isn't about "liberating the Jewish people".

It is largely about stopping oppression against the Jewish people.

I don't really see how this is even the case. The Russian and Negro Jewish minorities in Israel are exploited to the points of practical ethnic segregation.

Yet another person confuses "Zionism" with "Israel".

Israel is indeed a particular function of Zionism. That it is not Zionism per se is only obvious in the very contradictory nature of ensemble Zionism.

- Prometheus

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

I support Zionism because I think that the Jewish people deserve a right to a state seeing as they have been opressed by the evil nazis

That is not an excuse for anything. The Nazis oppressed us 60 years ago...so that means we can oppress other people now to make up for it....and people who had nothing to do with the Nazis either...

That makes absolutely no sense...and the people who say such things are ignorant fools...

[Political Interest]

Tovarish did I say Zionists have the right to opress people because of what happend to them no I didnt I said that they deserve a state where they can live. [/quote]

[Nucleicacidman]

Zionism is the ideal for the establishing and the protection of a Jewish State in the chosen land. Zionism has nothing to do with Israel's foreign policy.

On top of that, the Palestinians live how the do because they repeadetly resist the help of Israel. Also, what about the Jordanians who had killed off their Palestinian brethren after the Jewish war of independence in 1948? Is that not oppression?

Building on the first point of the second paragraph. How can the Jewish welfare program help "rebuild" the West Bank and Gaza if the Palestinians are shooting at them or blowing them up? It makes no sense... the Palestinians are lending themselves towards your so called "oppression".

[Ásatrúar]

Zionism is about liberating the Jewish people, who have been oppressed
for over 4000 years, and continue to be oppressed. And as Mao
said, nationalism of the oppressed is a type of internationalism. You should
support Zionism for the same reason that you support Black Nationalism.

Are you jewish, Ixabert? I find it quiet contradictory, why you say someone should support Israel (because they have been oppressed) by oppressing the Palestinians. Anyone would fight back if their land was stolen and they were herded into camps and ghettos. I would've thought the jews would be acting differently, given their past. Black Nationalism is racism. Zionism itself is also discrimination: consider the law they want that would send all palestinians married to jews out of the country, breaking apart their families. If you read history, the Hebrews have done similar things in the past to the ancestors of the palestinians, the Canaanites and the Philistines.