Howard should not be immune to iraq backlash - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#28940
I used to be a big supporter of Howard; he heroically outlawed automatic rifles amidst a storm of intimidation from the gun lobby, he had the moral courage not to stoop to Hanson's level and engage her in public debate, and he introduced much needed tax reform.

However my trust in him wavered during the 'children over board' scandal - in which it is now clear that he blatantly lied to the Australian people, and it suffered a devastating blow during the war with Iraq.

Howard was in the US during 9/11 (along with my parents), and he developed a close bond (friendship?) with Dubya - Texas Ranger. Howard said recently that Bush was much misunderstood, and that contrary to popular perception, he actually has a strong grasp of all the issues.

Anyway, Howard made it clear that he would support the US in a war from the moment the issue came up. He initially used the "I'm not going to talk about a hypothetical situation" defence to repeated questions about whether or not this support would mean sending Australian troops. Everyone knew that in Howard talk, this translated into "I will be sending troops, but I'm too scared to tell everyone now". Before long however, Howard committed his forces, which was not insignificant for modest Australia. He incured considerable wrath from the public by asserting that we would go with or without UN approval. Australians united in protest, launching the biggest rallies in Melbourne and Sydney in Australia's history. Howard, unperturbed warned of his "ultimate nightmare" that Saddam would supply WMD to terrorists. During the war Howard made several tactless comments eg that Iraq's hospitals were coping ok with the casualties.

But the real dishonesty and deception was not revealed until after the war. A few weeks before the war started, Andrew Wilkie, an intelligence officer at the Office of National Assesements (ONA) resigned in protest claiming that the intelligence did not show that Saddam was a threat. To clarify, the ONA assesses intelligence passed to Australia from overseas sources. In this case, he was talking about US and UK intelligence, and the discrepency between what the actual intelligence said and what the politicians were saying. Andrew Wilkie has since testified at the Hutton enquiry, continuing his claim that intelligence was distorted by the UK and Australian governments to support their case. But at this stage, no one paid much attention to such descent; after all everyone knew that Saddam was stocked to the gills with WMD - not even the anti-war movement was trying to argue against that. The war came and went, and lo and behold no WMD were found. People began to ask questions about the claims we were hearing from our leaders. Remarkably, Howard has been unscathed by these backlash. He has sworn that he never received intelligence that was contrary to what he was saying to the public.

Now consider this: Wilkie has stated that it would have been inconceivable that Howard did not receive the assesement made by the ONA that Iraq was not the threat the US and UK governments were telling us it was. This was, after all, standard procedure; anything useful the ONA obtains is automatically passed on to the PM's office. Unfortunately, we don't know what happened, but one of four things would have happened:

1. The ONA, contrary to Wilkie's claims, concluded that Saddam was a
threat and passed this information to the PM.
2. The ONA assessed that Saddam was not a threat, but failed to pass
intelligence supporting this claim to the PM's office.
3. The ONA did pass intelligence to the PM's office, saying that Saddam
was not a threat, but the PM did not read it.
4. The PM did read the dissapointing intelligence stating that Saddam was
not a threat, but lied to the people anyway.

As for scenario 1, why would Wilkie risk his reputation and his career to say a lie? And anyway, his assertions have been proved right. Howard, Bush and Blair's claims have been proved wrong, and it has been revealed that the intelligence agencies in the US and UK had been supressed to a degree, such as the warning to Blair that an attack would only INCREASE the terrorist risk, and the CIA plea to not include the uranium-Africa link. If the intelligence agencies were saying to the UK and US governments that Saddam was not a threat, then this intelligence would also have reached the ONA, as Wilkie asserts.

So then we are left with three scenarios. To be kind, lets assume scenario 2 occured. Note again that this is contrary to standard practice, and contrary to Wilkies assertion that the intelligence would definitely have been sent to the PM's office. Nonetheless, lets give the PM the benefit of the doubt. Now consider this: what sort of PM swears solemnly to the public that Saddam is a threat, while not once checking with the intelligence office that analyses the intelligence related to this matter?

So you can see, Howard is one of two things: he is either incredibly incompetent and negligent(at the very best) or he is an out and out liar.

Either way does not fill me with confidence.
User avatar
By Yeddi
#28941
I, like you, had respect for Howard until "children overboard", Iraq was really the tonne of straw that broke the horse back. However i don't see the Australian public voting him out. Why? Australians don't reallly care, adn thats it. It doesn't matter that he lied, hell, most people have probably already forgotten about it. But the real problem is, who is the alternative? Simon Crean? I'd prefer little Johnny Howard. The Labour party is a joke.
#28960
GandalfTheGrey wrote:Howard was in the US during 9/11 (along with my parents), and he developed a close bond (friendship?) with Dubya - Texas Ranger. Howard said recently that Bush was much misunderstood, and that contrary to popular perception, he actually has a strong grasp of all the issues.


It seems as if this "bonding" happens often when world leaders actually meet our President and stop listening to the media and/or Democratic Party.

GandalfTheGrey wrote:But the real dishonesty and deception was not revealed until after the war. A few weeks before the war started, Andrew Wilkie, an intelligence officer at the Office of National Assesements (ONA) resigned in protest claiming that the intelligence did not show that Saddam was a threat.

Andrew Wilkie has since testified at the Hutton enquiry, continuing his claim that intelligence was distorted by the UK and Australian governments to support their case.


I know you are stating your opinion. Based upon the following, I can't say that I agree with you:


Richard Butler, Andrew Wilkie give evidence to Iraq inquiry PRINT FRIENDLY EMAIL STORY
The World Today - Friday, 22 August , 2003 12:10:00
Reporter: Louise Yaxley
HAMISH ROBERTSON: We begin with the first day of the Federal Parliamentary inquiry into the intelligence on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, which started in Canberra today.

Two key players have been giving evidence: the Governor designate of Tasmania and former chief UN weapons inspector, Richard Butler; and former senior intelligence officer Andrew Wilkie, who quit the Office of National Assessments in protest at the Government's reasons for sending Australian troops to Iraq.

This morning, Mr Wilkie has been giving a scathing assessment of the Federal Government's behaviour over Iraq and accused the Government of fabricating material for its case against the regime of Saddam Hussein.

He says he doesn't back away from his allegation that the Government lied over Iraq, claiming the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister have a lot to answer for.

Louise Yaxley reports.

LOUISE YAXLEY: The intelligence officer who went from having a secret job to international prominence earlier this year, has renewed his attack on the Federal Government in the strongest terms.

ANDREW WILKIE: I wish to make it very clear that I do not apologise for or withdraw from in any way my accusation that the Howard Government misled the Australian public over Iraq.

LOUISE YAXLEY: Andrew Wilkie quit the Office of National Assessments in March, just before the invasion of Iraq, saying war wasn't justified. This morning, he's given evidence to the Parliamentary Joint Inquiry into Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The Committee's looking into the performance of Australia's intelligence agencies and whether the Government as a whole gave accurate information to the public. Mr Wilkie's argued to the Committee that the intelligence agencies performed reasonably.

ANDREW WILKIE: I emphasise that I think the assessments were generally okay, everything considered, not least because the intelligence agencies assessments were always very heavily qualified to reflect the substantial ambiguity of the Iraqi intelligence picture.

LOUISE YAXLEY: He's attacked the Government for what it subsequently did with the intelligence it received.

ANDREW WILKIE: The Government deliberately skewed the truth by taking the ambiguity out of the issue. Key intelligence assessment qualifications like "probably", "could", and "uncorroborated evidence suggests" were frequently dropped.

The Government even went so far as to fabricate the truth. The claims about Iraq cooperating actively with al-Qaeda were obviously nonsense, as was the Government's reference to Iraq seeking uranium in Africa.

LOUISE YAXLEY: Mr Wilkie has all but crusaded on his concern since quitting his ONA job. Today, he's made them more specific to the Prime Minister's Office.

ANDREW WILKIE: Yes, I, I will go that far as to say the Government misused the intelligence they were receiving to make the point they wanted to make.

COMMITTEE MEMBER: And here in Australia that was a very short route, direct from ONA to the PM's Office?

ANDREW WILKIE: Yes, yes, I mean, I see where you're trying to take me and I'll go there. I will go so far as to say that the material was going straight from ONA to the Prime Minister's Office and the exaggeration was, was occurring in there. Or the dishonesty was occurring somewhere in there.

Now, I'm not blaming, I'm not, I don't know what's been said behind closed doors. I'm not blaming anyone in particular, but I'm saying it wasn't…the problem was generally not within the intelligence agencies, it was after the information left the intelligence agencies. Um, I'll go that far to say.

LOUISE YAXLEY: Before the hearing this morning, Mr Howard told Southern Cross Radio he stands by his actions.

JOHN HOWARD: We didn't, um, ask that the intelligence material be distorted. I made, and my colleagues made, a bona fide judgement based on the assessments that existed at the time.

LOUISE YAXLEY: Mr Wilkie's also launched a defence of his own credibility today, telling the Committee he's only written one report on Iraq but defended his involvement as adequate to make these claims. Mr Wilkie's admitted his actions have been in breach of his professional obligations.

ANDREW WILKIE: Uh, such concerns?

COMMITTEE MEMBER: Well, you mentioned the clearance that you had, which is a positive vet that we're aware of, and you resigned on the 11th of March. When did you speak to the media?

ANDREW WILKIE: Fair question. Um, I approached Laurie Oakes on the 7th March, which was contrary to my code of conduct. I acknowledge that.

COMMITTEE MEMBER: So for four days you were in, in the planning processes for the Iraq task force having spoken to the media.

LOUISE YAXLEY: Earlier, the Committee heard from the former chief UN weapons inspector, Richard Butler, soon to become Governor of Tasmania. He said it was possible from his knowledge that Iraq could have launched weapons of mass destruction in 45 minutes, as claimed before the war.

Mr Butler says he believes the answer to all the unanswered questions about weapons of mass destruction lies with key figures in the former Iraqi regime, who are now in US custody.

RICHARD BUTLER: I am fascinated, I am fascinated by the silence of Tariq Aziz, General Amer Rashid, General Amer al-Saadi, but in the end, nothing beats having people tell you the truth. Now, they have, the United States has in its, in its, in its care these three men. I believe they know the answer to some of these questions. I don't know why they…we've not heard what they have told while in captivity.

HAMISH ROBERTSON: Richard Butler, giving evidence to the Federal Parliamentary inquiry this morning, in Canberra. Our reporter was Louise Yaxley.

----

In the US, Wilkes would be up on Federal charges for violating his security clearance.

I question the veracity of Mr. Wilkes claims and certainly his motives. But I'm a Yank so it really doesn't matter.

Nox
By Efrem Da King
#28991
Wlikie is horrible. It is rediculous. He makes statments but no one can officially counter him about what was actually in his report because it is classified. That is untill the gov leaked it to a commitee member. You should have seen the look of horror on his face when he realised someone had read it. The list of things he had said would happen in the report and didn't is hilarious.


I never like howard. I was against the GST, annoyed by the children over board affair. But Iraq changed all that. Lets take a look at what we earned and lost. We earned a faitful ally and a respect of our military. We lost NO LIVES and well a coupla million dollars but thats nothing compared to elsewhere. Howard did the right thing by aus in taking us into iraq.
By Proctor
#29045
Don't know much about this Wilkie guy, but he doesn't sound too great. Rather... creative with the truth.
Yeddi wrote:But the real problem is, who is the alternative? Simon Crean? I'd prefer little Johnny Howard. The Labour party is a joke.
Well said. Australian politics are insane, from where I'm sitting comfortably a three hour flight away. Politicians, sometimes party leaders, are not particularly afraid to swear at each other.

My advice to you all? Vote Democrat.
By GandalfTheGrey
#29118
Proctor wrote:My advice to you all? Vote Democrat.


The democrats are a spent force. The happening party today is the greens.
By Efrem Da King
#29134
BOOO the greens are just a bunch of anti semitic commies.


NOw I used to like the democrates, but ever since natasha left.....
By Proctor
#29177
Well, seeing as I have no idea who Natasha was...

I don't know shit about the Greens in Australia, but the Democrats seem to be the shining light amongst the filth. Whereas everyone in Opposition was taking the opportunity to slam the Howard government over Iraq and the Governor General scandal, the leader of the Democrats was on TV saying that he hoped that whatever happened, it would turn out all the best for Australia. Bill English could really learn something from a guy like him.
User avatar
By Yeddi
#29180
Image

She was the leader of the Democrats
I'll vote for the underdog :P my vote doesn't mean anything anyway. Safe Labour Seat here, the deputy Opposition leader is from my seat. There will be no change.
By Efrem Da King
#29183
uh


well see you don't know what happened to the democrates do you??


Okay gather round uncle Efrems chair for nice tale of deceit and lust.


First in charge of the "D" was a huge evil cow woman called meg lees. THEN a guardian of goodness the extremely hot natasha scott despoya came to power and the evil meg left. Every thing was going well for D, but then her second in command, and his minions, attacked her and kicked her out of power :knife: . THen the dark ages desended and every one stopped voting for the democrats :*( .

*yeddi posted while I was writing*
By Proctor
#29188
Thanks, nice story uncle Efrem! Does the lust refer to the extremely hot Natasha Scott Despoya? :D

Well, as evil as the new leader might be, he still has my respect. Any politician who unashamedly puts nation in front of party does. But sadly, it's a rather short list.

Long live the no-party system!
User avatar
By Yeddi
#29190
Meg Lees wasn't the first leader of the Democrats. Don Chipp founde the party "to keep the bastards honest" But yeah, nephew Efrems tale is true, adn yes NAtasha aint half bad...
By Efrem Da King
#29378
Thanks, nice story uncle Efrem! Does the lust refer to the extremely hot Natasha Scott Despoya?


It most certainly does 8) .

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