[Ocker]

Ok, I was bored tonight, and am sitting for 2 tests of my Year 10 Certificate tomorrow and I got an idea for an essay.

I have never really written an essay before. I am in Year 10, 15 and at a public high school.

What's your opinion on the Public/Private issue and the general affair of the education system. I live in NSW so it would be good to get some other states opinions.

Anyway, here is what I have written so far, I have to go to bed now

Why Australian teachers aren’t teaching

Education is perhaps the most important thing for an operable society. But this statement could be taken to two extremes: education is the means to produce intelligent, socially aware adults, or, education is the means to produce the perfect, ignorant consumer and worker. The latter may sound like a radicalist left-wing view, but why is it becoming a reality?

In a country where schools are segregated, not by race (in most locations), but into what could ultimately be considered upper-class ‘Private’ schools and lower-class ‘Public’ schools, what other outcome is there except to further worsen social-class difference? As hard as a student from a down-on-the-luck family may strive in schoolwork and study to achieve top marks in a public school, the student who parties every weekend and has their education bought for them is still going to have the advantage come time to enter the workforce.

The names themselves of these schools strike me as absurd, yet all too sensible at the same time. In an era where our government loves to privatise, what better name for an ‘elite’ school than ‘private’? In an increasingly un-democratic county, where the public opinion means less and less to our government, what better name for the schools of lesser-choice than ‘public’?

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Yeah not much yet, I know, but writing that has made me really tired

[Yeddi]

[Just to explain if any Brits are reading, Private schools here are not the equivilant of your public schools, they are like the independent schools]

As hard as a student from a down-on-the-luck family may strive in schoolwork and study to achieve top marks in a public school, the student who parties every weekend and has their education bought for them is still going to have the advantage come time to enter the workforce.

I'm not really sure about this bit. I went (ohh freaky past tense ) i went to a 'private' school, but i wouldn't say my edcation was bought for me, i still have to contend with the 70,000 other students in Victoria, and am still ranked against them. Just because i went to a private school doesn't guarantee me a good Rank, in fact i'm looking at getting quite a poor one (for reasons i wont go into but has nothing to do with Partying every weekend)

Whilst i might agree, that having attended a private school that i would probably be picked above a public school graduate if we had the same rank. Merely saying that a Private school graduate has an "advantage when they enter the workforce" is wrong in my opinion.
Not only that but in an age were a piece of paper (namely a degree) is needed for almost all jobs, the fact that you attended a private school is becoming less and less relevent in my opinion. You are not judged by your School, but far more likely you are judged on the University that you attend and the qualifications you have, which are dependent on your academic potential, well at least the qualifications are. Universities are still being bought into.

[Efrem Da King]

And don't forget selective highschools, they are public schools that you need to OWN in a test to get into, but then the school thinks its a private school and acts like one too but doesn't have any of the benifits. Oh well at least Its good to be with other smart kids.

[GandalfTheGrey]

In a country where schools are segregated, not by race (in most locations), but into what could ultimately be considered upper-class ‘Private’ schools and lower-class ‘Public’ schools, what other outcome is there except to further worsen social-class difference?

Exactly right Ocker, and you have just dispelled one of the great Australian myths: that we live in a classless society.

Yeddi you are right in a sense; education can't be bought, it still ultimately comes down to how much effort each student puts in. However, the critical factor is the differences between the two learning environments. Public schools predominantly consist of lower-middle to working class students, while private schools predominantly consist of middle class students. This has a huge impact on the learing environment, where the high flying, competitive private school students are far more motivated to learn and achieve academically, than are their working class compatriots. I attended both private and public schools, and believe me there is a HUGE difference. Public schools have such a "ho-hum" sort of attitude: the kids go along and they do what they've got to do, then go home. In private schools, it is such a competitive environment. Kids actually want to do well; they have exams, they have dux of the year, and special awards for high achievement.

What I see as the greatest flaw to our education system is that we are forcing all students to study academic subjects when, in so many cases, it is completely pointless. Consider Jo Bloggs who's father runs the local corner store. His father also ran it, and his father and so on. All Jo wants to do is inherit his father's business. So what is the point of him studying Pride and Prejudice, or the causes of the collapse of Weimar Germany? He is not the least bit interested in it, he doesn't understand it, and most importantly, it does him no good studying it. Far better would be if he had the opportunity to specialise in things that were more relevant to him; non-academic, practical subjects. But kids are unable to do that. They have to study at least one unit of english, they have to study at least one unit of science. And this is just in year 11 and 12. Most working class kids who leave in year 10 have to do all the academic subjects.

[Yeddi]

It is only 1 unit of Science, and only 1 unit of Humanities.. they can do whatever they want after that.
But i agree, especially in Victoria, i don't know how it works in other states but Science subjects are "ranked" above humanities and especially practical studies such as Woodwork or Materials and Design.

Its kinda hard to explain but the idea is. Joe here studies Physics, he gets achieves a 30 out of 50 for it. But when it goes in to calculate his enter score it is raised to say 35 out of 50. But had Joe done a Humanitites, like say History, it may have gone down to 29 out of 50. and god forbit if he had done Woodwork, it may have gone down to 22 out of 50.
I'm not exact on the scalings, i just made them up, but thats what happens. generally If you do science subjects they get scaled up, anything else goes down, except for english. An exception is Languages... they go up as well.. in fact very well... 12 points for French so if you get 30 in french, you end up with 42. Not too shabby at all.

[Ocker]

Yes, that happens in NSW too Yeddi (the subject ranking).

Thanks for the input guys.

And Yeddi, I do agree with your first post. I could change that a bit to better suit what I mean, which is more along the lines of what Gandalf said, plus the fact that better equipment, textbooks and teachers will ultimately = better students.

Efrem, cheers for that, selective schools evaded my mind.
I could of gone to a selective school, all I had to do was take this test with about 100 other students from other local schools in a hall, I got 'accepted' but I told my parents I would rather stay with my mates then spend an hour travelling to school to 'hang' with kids who would rather shine their shoes than play cricket. Ok, I am stereotyping but you get the idea

~Cheers.

[Milorg]

I've got to admit that when i first came to australia, the thing that amazed me the most was how the school system worked. Granted, I only have one source of comparison, the school system in Norway, but still. It doesn't seem like a very fair system. I admit that i Don't have experience from anything else than University level australian education, but you learn a few thing just by obersving the kids on the tram every day as well..

My personal impression is that private schools are opposite to the values the society should teach it's young. Back home in Norway, private schools have only emerged the last few years, as christian fundamentalists denied their children the science approach to evolution. Saw a doco about those schools, and it was just horrendous... Stay public for everyone, that way everyone gets an even start..

[GandalfTheGrey]

It is only 1 unit of Science, and only 1 unit of Humanities.. they can do whatever they want after that.

Yes, but for the kids who leave in year 10 (eg working class kid who already have a factory job waiting for them), don't get that choice.

With the scaling system, I think the bottom line is if you do well, you will get rewarded. Its not like you shouldn't do history because it is "scaled down". All "scaling down" means is that the majority of students who do it will do very well and since you can't have the majority of students sitting at the top end of the scale, you bring it back more towards the middle. The very top students will still be rewarded, and your mark relative to the other students is not changed. In fact if you do especially well, you will most likely be scaled up. So you can look at it this way: if you do an "easy" subject like history, then you should be aiming for a better than average mark. If you get 30 out of 50, then most of the other students will probably have done better, in which case you have to be scaled down. On the other hand, a difficult subject like physics, the mean will fall on the lower end of the scale, and so it has to be adjusted up. So in this case, if you do well in a "hard" subject, you will be rewarded since you did better than expected. It all boils down to how well you did in comparison to all the other students.

[Thin Spirits]

This is a great topic.

I went to a public primary school and a private high school here in SA.

The difference is amazing, and more money does equal a better education. But as far as I'm aware our private schools dont teach anything different from those in public schools, they just teach more.

Have you considered incorporating the religous nature of most private schools into your argument? It might prove interesting.
My school spent its time teaching catholic values to students who represented the 'richer' part of our town, whilst I would say only 5 per cent of the students were practising any sort of christian religion.

Your theory has merit. post the final piece, I'd love to analyse it.

[Yeddi]

Have you considered incorporating the religous nature of most private schools into your argument?

That is a very good idea, nearly all independent schools are religious orientated, infact i can't think of one of the top of my head that isn't.

I notice that many of you have gone to both public and private schools. I have as well, to an extent. I attended the local state primary school and then moved to the private school for year 7, so i'm not sure if the differences were because of the systems or because it was secondary school not primary school.

Another factor that you might take into consideration as well as religion is the element of coeducation and single sex education. Many private schools were or are single sex schools, does that impact negitively/positivly/depends on the student?

I agree with Thin Spirit on this one. This is a great topic.

[Thin Spirits]

I also spent a year at a private primary school.
In contrast,however, I found it to be a pretty abd experience, as the teachers were overly-strict and I was taught a lot of fairly useless information. Now I look back, it was it I was being taught to fit in to a somewhat elitist system
by useless information I can think of examples such as teachers making us tuck our shirt in, teaching us cursive and making us put AMGD in the corner of our writing books. It meands something in latin I think.


I've always thought that someone who went to a single-sex high school might turn out with slightly disjointed views of the opposite sex, but I've never met someone who went to one so...

[Efrem Da King]

One fo the main problems with public (including selective) highschools is that they can do nothing about crap teachers. Like my english teacher for example, who's area of specialty is victorian era literature but he hasn't even read sherlock holmes.

[Yeddi]

I can think of examples such as teachers making us tuck our shirt in, teaching us cursive and making us put AMGD in the corner of our writing books. It meands something in latin I think.

Ah yes, tucking your shirts in pull your socks up, totally useless. At my school they stopped bothering after year 7, i guess they thought if they hadn't got you there you were a no hoper.
I am amazed that you include being taught cursive there. I was taught cursive at my public primary school, everyone was. At high school they didn't care so i created my printed style. Are you saying that public schools in SA don't teach cursive?
That AMGD thing is terrible, i've never heard of it.

I've always thought that someone who went to a single-sex high school might turn out with slightly disjointed views of the opposite sex, but I've never met someone who went to one so...

My campus of my school was single sex until this year where we added some year 7's girls. Though there have been a few doing the IB now and then. So now you ahve met somebody. I don't know what you mean by disjointed though...

[Thin Spirits]

I dont know either.
Do you think that you have lacked any female contact through highschool?
I think it would be fair to assume that people from co-educational schools learn more about the opposite sex through working with them, but I guess it would be unfair to assume that anyone who went to a single-sex school lacks a similar education.
Honestly do you think your views on women would be different if you went to a co-ed school?
I guess we really need someone who's experienced both

Cursive was completely useless... a relic of the early 1900's. I was taught it at my public school in year 3 by an archaic teacher. No one else taught it that I know of though. So in year 7 when I went to a private primary for a year I found it odd that I had to write in it again.

[Ocker]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I will have to do some research on apsects of the different style schools mentioned, and funding etc. for each.

Ah yes, tucking your shirts in pull your socks up

Isn't it weird how having your white socks pulled up is 'cool' now?

[Thin Spirits]

Its quite an intelligent and insightful essay for someone at year 10 level.
I'm impressed.

[Efrem Da King]

hmm


No one cares about shirts much anymore.

[Proctor]

Great start Ocker! I'd be interested to see it when it's finished.

Right. Onto differences across the ditch.
In New Zealand we (or at least I) had to learn cursive (although it was just called 'linking') in Primary school. The weird thing was that not only did they not expect you to learn it, they didn't really even want you to. I did anyway, simply because it's faster, and now people complain they can't read my writing.

I go to a public school. We have to tuck our shirts in and pull our socks up. But since juniors are lazy and rebellious , they don't. So they get detentions. By about half way through 5th form (Year 11), everyone is just resigned to their fate.

Single sex schools are weird. The girls from St Matts, and the boys from Rathkeale are insane. They don't shut up, and all they ever seem to be talking about is who is going out with who. Whatever.

This is a great topic.

Of course it is! You're in the Pacific Forum, what do you expect!

[Yeddi]

Of course it is! You're in the Pacific Forum, what do you expect!

I was expecting a really terrible topic, i mean thats just natural. I am in the Pacific Forum. You know what i heard, i heard that the moderator of this forum is... i don't know how to say this without scaring people.. but he's... he's... a kiwi!

Do you think that you have lacked any female contact through highschool?
I think it would be fair to assume that people from co-educational schools learn more about the opposite sex through working with them, but I guess it would be unfair to assume that anyone who went to a single-sex school lacks a similar education.
Honestly do you think your views on women would be different if you went to a co-ed school?

Thats a toughy, yes they probably would've been. But i don't know whether that would have been a good or bad thing.
I feel though that having the single sex high school was fantastic for me to be comfortable with being the true me. If that makes sense. I think that having women around at school would have prodused a person who was not as confident with who he was and more interested in being who other people wanted him to be. Simply because of the power play, the fighting for girls affection, you know the type of stuff. There was alot more bonding and acceptance i think having gone to a single sex school, there was no need for an "alpha male" type scenario simply because there were no females to impress.
There was no lack of contact, the school arranged dance classes with the single sex girls school that is right near us, and naturally there are all the parties. Some of my best, closest friends are girls that i met during that time, after i had discovered who i was. I don't know if that would have been the same had i attended a co-ed school, but i would doubt it.

[Thin Spirits]

Thats a toughy, yes they probably would've been. But i don't know whether that would have been a good or bad thing.
I feel though that having the single sex high school was fantastic for me to be comfortable with being the true me. If that makes sense. I think that having women around at school would have prodused a person who was not as confident with who he was and more interested in being who other people wanted him to be. Simply because of the power play, the fighting for girls affection, you know the type of stuff. There was alot more bonding and acceptance i think having gone to a single sex school, there was no need for an "alpha male" type scenario simply because there were no females to impress.

There was no lack of contact, the school arranged dance classes with the single sex girls school that is right near us, and naturally there are all the parties. Some of my best, closest friends are girls that i met during that time, after i had discovered who i was. I don't know if that would have been the same had i attended a co-ed school, but i would doubt it.

Wow, I'd never thought of it like that before I'd never imagined single sex schools to have that sort of advantage, but it makes sense...
I think though it'd be a lot more worse in a single sex all-girls school; whilst guys compete for females attention, females just compete for the hell of it. The bitchiness would be enough to drive anyone up the wall.

I'd always thought the 'power-play' was a part of growing up, but now I come to think of it, my high school years probably would have been better without it
Thanks for the insight.