[Thin Spirits]

I was reading Drummonds post and story and I fely slightly obligated to tell you my story of the day, which went from fairly boring to pretty bad.

I went and saw the skyshow in Adelaide, which was pretty good for families and children (I was at the pub across the road). And walking back into the city I watched as a kind, (about 17-18) was beaten up by a large group of about 20 or so aboriginals in the middle of Hindley street.

He ran away after copping a fair beating, but no one stepped in to help him, for fear of attracting attention on themselves or their friends.

Undeterred, the group beat up another teen in exactly the same place a few minutes later, for no apparent reason. The guy ran away after he sustained a pretty bad beating.

About 10 minutes after that about three big looking police officers walked up. The group was still mingling about around the place, one of the beaten up teens was hiding in a McDonalds, too afraid to come out. And when someone around the scene told one of the cops that he 'was too late, mate' The officer got pretty aggressive on him "What are you talking about?" "What happened' As if it was the watchers fault.

Pretty stupid, and vaguely reminiscent of the violence in Perth.

Needless to say I was pretty put off, catching the last bus home on my own (12.20am) and kept away from dark alleys. I'm not a small guy, or really young, but I was still alone.

Waiting by the bus stop for my bus, I saw an Aboriginal woman spit out the window onto the pavement next to a guy sitting at the stop. He looke dup at her, more of a reaction than anything malicious and she instantly got really defensive;
"I wasn't aiming for you"
He just shrugged it off, and then she spat on him. He was pretty annoyed, but to his credit, remained calm.
Then she spat on him again, And then on his friend.
They said nothing, but looked pretty confused, She was starting to yell at them, and then her (Presumably) boyfriend looked out the window at them to make sure they weren't causing any trouble and she kept spitting on about three guys until they moved.

To her credit she was a good shot.

I caught the bus home wondering if Australia was as unified and as happily multicultural as caucasians often say it is.

[Andrew]

I think our country is quite unified, but large masses of it are not. Once the Indigenous population gets an apology from a tolerant Prime Minister, then only then will we be able to technically call ourselves a reconciled and unified nation.

I read an interesting article on NineMsn.com about how a South Australian Politician believes Australia Day should be on May 9. He gives some very good points also.

Australia Day should be in May: MP


Australia Day was being celebrated on the wrong day, a South Australian MP said on Sunday.

Independent MP and SA parliamentary speaker Peter Lewis said Australia's national day should be May 9, to commemorate the meeting of the nation's first parliament in 1901.

"It gives me no pleasure or delight to celebrate the settlement of a penal colony called New South Wales, which resulted in untold misery and acrimony because of the fashion in which it was done," Mr Lewis said in a statement.

"On January 26, 1788, Australia as a name for our continent and our country had not been thought of.

"What's more, New South Wales was a dependent colony of Great Britain, established by military fiat, not by law."

Mr Lewis said January 26 should be known as Invasion Day, because of the failure of the British arrivals "to negotiate a satisfactory arrangement" with indigenous Australians.

However, the courage of early European settlers in bringing "civilising notions" to Australia should be applauded, he said.

"(They) enabled the emergence of one single, free, self-governing, literate and numerate democratic nation to emerge as a result, with one citizenship, one language and equal opportunity for all as basic tenets of society," Mr Lewis said.

The Article can be found here.

Andrew

[GandalfTheGrey]

Whatever day you choose, the Aborigines are not going to be happy with it. Why is May 9 any better for Aborigines? The first parliament was for whites only, represented by whites only, and elected by whites only. It can be argued that the first parliament merely officially sanctioned the rampant discrimination of Aborigines. While they continue to live in third world status and misery, they will not be able to celebrate the achievements of Australia. May 9, like every other day of the year, is not a day for Aborigines to celebrate.

Calling January 26 "invasion day" is devisive and negative. We achieve nothing by this black armband view of history. Rather than bemoan how terrible the first settlers were, lets concentrate on making Australia fairer and prosperous for everyone today and for the future - whatever colour they are. After that, the Aborigines will celebrate on january 26 just like the rest of us.

[Yeddi]

While i agree with Gandalf in that Aus Day shouldn't be called Invasion day i disagree on the use of May 9th. Personally i think this should be Australia day as it is something to do with the whole of australia and not just sydney. Maybe i'm wierd but no one i know "celebrates" australia day, its just another holiday we can sit aroud and do nothing. Sometimes i eve forget what is happening. We do more celebrating on Cup day.

[Ocker]

Whatever day it is, those people are savages

If you want to protest, contact your local activist group, don't act like an animal, or you will get treated like one

I am very divided on Aborigines. While all my heart goes out to those who never get the chancw to improve their horrid lives, I have no sympathy at all for people of Aboriginal descent (anyone for that matter) who have the opportunity to move up in the world, to become something.

Sitting on your ass all day complaining will not improve anything.

[Thin Spirits]

The problem with the Aboriginies goes much deeper than a simple apology.
It is very much a social/economic problem that resulst in many of them being stuck in a welfare situation.
The Australian population is aboout 1% Aboriginal yet 70% of our gaols are aboriginal.
That and aboriginal customs and culture were not properly integrated into those of a western society.

I feel a strong empathy for the Aboriginals, what was done to them, and wish there could be a fair way that it can be resolved. Unfortunately I cannot think of a decent replacement for what they lost.

I have also heard that the current president/leader of ATSIC is a pretty nasty/stupid/incompetant guy who is suspected of rape. *shrugs*

[Andrew]

The problem with the Aboriginies goes much deeper than a simple apology.

I wouldn't call the apology as something simple. It is something the Aboriginal population seek in order to move on and try to forget the brutal past. Once the apology is said, the Government of Australia finally acknowledges the past and compensation can be paid.

On a social and economical basis, I think they are obviously at a disadvantage, but so are other non-indigenous Australians. However, I really feel sorry for them and have massive empathy for their past history, and wish I could see a happy resolution that will make everybody happy.

The Maori's in New Zealand seem to have a tolerant Government and seem to be doing fine. What kind of system do they have? Are they as happy as we seem to think? Why does it work over there? If their current system works, then I would like to see it imported here.

Andrew

[Maxim Litvinov]

I think most Australians feel 'sorry' for the Aborigines.

The PM is half right.

What we need is not only practical help, but symbolic assistance as well.

To my mind the one thing killing off Aborigines today is a lack of aspiration. Those who get away from their own communities and are confident they can make something of themselves will have a good chance to live a 'prosperous' life (not simply in the economic sense of the word).

But, I can see now if I was growing up in an outback community, with poor schooling, knowing that the majority of my kinsman had never climbed even one rung up the social ladder, that my education destined me to be low paid and lack opportunities, and with classmates who didn't think they had anything to aspire to but collect the dole and use it for grog... well then, I would, no doubt, fall into line with the rest.

Aboriginal people need positive role-models, they need financial assistance, they need good schooling and they need people coming into their communities and demonstrating that if they have the will individuals can break out of the cycle of community poverty.

I sound very paternalistic here. But I really believe the problems in Aboriginal communities are so ingrained, that it takes not only an apology, but also real hands-on policies to give our Indigenous colleaques a fair go.

[Yeddi]

I wouldn't call the apology as something simple. It is something the Aboriginal population seek in order to move on and try to forget the brutal past. Once the apology is said, the Government of Australia finally acknowledges the past and compensation can be paid.

This is the bit that divides me.
I seriously believe the government needs to apologise however i don't think it should.
If the governement does apologise, as you said "compensation" that is the bit i don't like. If the government apologises the door will be wide open to lawsuits from the thousands that were taken away and by their families, and if their has been a formal apology these suits will succeed. That means that less money will be available for the governments budjet and by that less money for health education adn all the other things the money would be (IMO) better spent on.
Not only that but i think that it is unfair that I and thousands of other australians like me who had nothing to do wtih the problem now have to pay for it. This i believe will creates larger rifts in society, rifts that need to be closed.

[unbalanced zealot]

Just on a side-tangent ... lot of good Aboringinals
in the AFL ... Wanganeen probably the best at the moment.
Che Cockatoo-Collins has the coolest name tho.

Mundine is right up there in the Super Middleweight rankings.
Not to mention Freeman - Goolagong - etc.

Just thought I'd chime in with a quick comment re
Aboriginals.

[Andrew]

In response to Yeddi:

That is the bit that also seems to divide me. We seem to only concentrate on the social aspects of the apology, and not the economical impact. However, this issue will eventually knock on our doorsteps once again and we will have to confront it rather than cause more separation amongst the issue. It is better to have it over and done with, especially after the Governments $7 Billion Dollar Budget Surplus. Perhaps a one-time compensation payment can be given to all sufferers of the harsh past, which will stop or minimise all incoming Court Cases.

[Maxim Litvinov]

An apology doesn't mean compensation. The government of the day should have enough wits about it to apologise without compensation.

A general statement of regret will not mean compensation. A voluntary document which Australians could sign on to by choice would not entail compensation. Even a statement by government that policy was misguided would not entail compensation.

If such 'apologies' or 'clarifications' did entail compensation, then any time a government admitted its mistakes, the people affected would take them to court.

The compensation 'crisis' is as big a furphy as the 'native title claim over your backyard' crisis.

The issue is not going to "knock on our doorstep" (sorry, couldn't resist).

I think compensation for the Stolen generation, for instance, is possibly a real issue with an apology. But we are talking about tens of people getting payouts for this - no-one thus far has gotten anything, and an 'apology' would do little directly to help their court battles. But, compensation for 'general Aboriginal policy' is just not going to happen.

[Andrew]

An apology does not specifically mean compensation. I dont assume the Government will say "Oh, I am sorry, here, have some money". It is a social matter, however, in the Court-world recently, Aboriginal Stolen Generation claims have been rejected and therefore, the compensation they wanted from the Government could not be given to them. But if the Government apologises, it means that it acknowledges the fact that there was such thing as the Stolen Generation and unfair treatment of Aboriginal people, and therefore the Aboriginal people have a basis on which to sue, in which case a court could not reject such a case anymore due to the Government giving-in to the scenario and admitting its faults. One of the prime reasons these cases are lost is because of a lack of evidence. By the Government apologising, the evidence becomes blatant, and therefore the Aboriginals can fire away their claims.

[Yeddi]

Exactly Andrew.

I do think an apology should be made, but not at that cost unfortunately.

[Proctor]

The Maori's in New Zealand seem to have a tolerant Government and seem to be doing fine. What kind of system do they have? Are they as happy as we seem to think? Why does it work over there? If their current system works, then I would like to see it imported here.

You'll have to bear in mind that my knowledge of Australian politics is pretty wholy, and so if I've got something completely wrong, just bear with me for a moment.

The main difference between Australia and New Zealand is in New Zealand, even relatively conservative Europeans admit that what was done in the past was wrong, and we're prepared to fix it. The majority of modern Maori grievances relate to the confiscation of land in the 1800s, and as such is (relatively speaking) easy to fix. Where it is possible to return the land to the iwi (tribe) in question without too much disruption, it is done. Where it isn't, and is owned quite legitimately by farmers, compensation is paid.

In 20th Century, particularly the 1980s, effort was made to integrate Maori into the Pakeha (white) system. This was largely effective, but it had the side effect of severely damaging the tribal way of life. I've heard it described as 'cultural imperialism'. I think that's going too far, but it provides the general idea.

I won't deny racial tensions still exist, but they are largely submerged. I may be wrong, but in Australia, racism, if worded carefully enough, can be seen as acceptable.

There are things that are almost equivalent to American affirmative action, but they never quite go as far.


That's all really fragmented and unhelpful. If you have specific questions, I can probably provide a better explanation.

Not only that but i think that it is unfair that I and thousands of other australians like me who had nothing to do wtih the problem now have to pay for it. This i believe will creates larger rifts in society, rifts that need to be closed.

True, but if you don't do something to rectify the problem, how will the existing rifts ever be closed?

[Maxim Litvinov]

Andrew -

It depends *what* the apology is.

The couple of stolen generation cases that have made it to court have faltered, because there has been a lack of specific evidence about the cases.

An apology won't change this one bit - even if it talks specifically about the 'stolen generations'. This is not 'evidence' as such, in a court of law. It is clear already what the situation *is*, and a government admitting to that situation is not more 'evidence'.

As I point out, an apology doesn't have to be specific about any of these things.

[unbalanced zealot]

A symbolic apology from a government who's disposition
reflects more credibility on social cohesion - and a symbolic
compensation in the form of solid infastructure such
as schools, health facilities, IT linkages to remote regions.

Then - a *negotiated* treaty to finalise land rights issues.
Only then is there likely to be the solidarity required to
achieve real progress. The scenario is/was different
to the usual experience of colonialism in that there
never was an independence revolution or an identifiable
transition to a post colonial era.

Aboriginals and other Australians need to be pro-active
to bring about a post colonial era in Australia. Start with a
republic then a treaty to draw a line under the historical
divisions between us once and for all. It won't happen
under the Coalition tho.

I'm all for pro-active progressive moves to be generated on
this issue. Just like the Whitlam government and infact the
Fraser Govt was so proactive on dissolving the White Australia
(immigration) Policy.

[Thin Spirits]

I may be wrong, but in Australia, racism, if worded carefully enough, can be seen as acceptable.

You're probably right.
I too, grew up in a rural situation, as a caucasian farmer's kid in a seaside town with over half the population Aboriginal. I met a lot of great aboriginals, But I also met quite a few who would be willing to beat me up for no reason than I was white. *shrugs*
This sort of thing breeds rascism. I'm more than willing to open up to the good in people> but when someones openly hostile to me simply because of my race I cant see what I can do abou tthe situation. its frustrating.

Although I get really fucking annoyed at people who live in the city, caucasian people who are unnecessarily racist in the reverse way.

A friends older brother was king hit by a small group of Aboriginals a few eeeks ago. Beat him up bad, broke his jaw. For no fucking apparent reason. He had his money stolen as an afterthought.

And the PM has apologised on his own behalf, but refuses to apologises on behalf of the Australian government for two reasons.
1) Massive legal compensation payout. Dont tell me it wouldn't happen, as soon as the government admits fault it will lose a lot of money (Even though they were responsible.)
2) Most Australians dont believe the government should apologise for reason one. The PM represents these views and keeps these votes.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Look - intuition is good for what it's worth.

But - arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh! Why keep on saying things like "don't tell me it wouldn't happen" over compensation? I've told you how apologies as a rule aren't linked with compensation. Obviously, if the apology goes - "the state was responsible for widespread and deliberate mistreatment of aborigines in the following ways..." the it might make a few legal cases easier.

But this is one end of the spectrum. If you say you do not want an apology - but almost solely on legal grounds - why don't you explain WHY an apology will necessitate compensation?

For what it's worth, although compensation is bandied about as some 'legitimate excuse' by some, people in the know, like the PM, don't use it. They use the more legitimate arguments that 'our generation didn't do most of the oppression, so they shouldn't apologise for it' or that 'an apology won't *do* a scrap of good, we need practical policies'.