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#15241751
Istanbuller wrote:Capitalism and free trade require a peaceful environment where countries do not clash.


That doesn't happen without a military that maintains an order where free (or mostly free) trade can occur.

Istanbuller wrote:The British Empire and later the US required big militaries because they faced existential threats from non democratic countries. If there weren't such threats, you wouldn't need to feed large militaries.


I think you are confounding a few things. You are hitting on something, but it's not exactly right.... or rather, it's not a complete picture.

The US was the only power left standing after WWII. They then decided to use their military to enforce the capitalist free (or relatively free) trade global order. It could not exist without this large military. This was mostly done to prevent the spread of communism of course (sure, you could argue this is the existential threat part, but that's besides the point being discussed here), but it was also a way to try and prevent too much economic power from landing in the hands of a few and causing yet another global conflict. It was only after this system was setup, that smaller nations could actually participate in free (or relatively free) trade and prosper to varying degrees (they could actually get a piece of the pie that was never previously available to them). Skip to today, where communism isn't a concern, where COVID has realized the risk and weakness to a globalized system, and where one of the biggest beneficiaries of that system (China) wants to destroy it by using its military of all things. It would be foolish to believe capitalism can function happily without military might behind it that can enforce the system. Otherwise things just fall back to the 19th century and earlier thinking, which is exactly what the likes of Putin and Xi want. This is disruptive to the free trade. Most of all, all the small nations that got to participate in that system under the umbrella of the US military are going to get fucked hard(er).

It is no surprise then, that as this system gets dismantled, we move closer to another large scale conflict (see Russia/China). Again, the system needs a military. WHat's happen here is that the US is starting to care less about enforcing that system, and now only selectively enforcing that system in defense of more democratic systems. Basically, the US is saying "fuck safe guarding free trade, let's just try to safe guard relatively democratic nations"

For the record, I am 100% in favor of dismantling that system. I have my reasons, but that's for another thread.

Another side point is that after WWII, the US could have really been an even bigger global asshole and asserted its own empire than they were these last 80 years or so. I mean it had a monopoly on nuclear weapons for fucks sake. What actually happen, probably wasn't so bad compared to what could have happened.
#15241788
late wrote:Capitalism has always depended on government to make it work.

This is no different. The government needs to make competition possible. We did it before, in the era of the Robber Barons, and the situation is even worse now.




Well then why do you fools keep killing competition? You over regulate, you constantly throw cash to those who are lazy and don't work, and you work tirelessly to punish success (windfall profits tax, subsidizing losers, creating unions which eventually kill the host, and printing money to the point of devaluing it). You DNC fuckers reward failure every chance you get.
#15241790
Drlee wrote:I agree. It is time for price controls. We can stomp inflation overnight by doing what Nixon (R) did. He froze prices and wages.

@BlutoSays assertion that all jobs that do not make stuff are inconsequential to the economy is bullshit. Maybe he will try a lecture on sovereign citizens next.

@late You are absolutely correct. Capitalism, as it has been experienced in the free world for centuries, requires careful control from government. Whether you go back to the guilds in times of old or copyright law today, capitalism requires government.

Want an example of how this works. Because a bunch of lawmakers wanted to suck the tits of Pharma the federal government, largest buyer of drugs in the world, is not allowed to negotiate price. If this law was repealed (and there is an effort by the Biden administration to do it) the cost of drugs for all Americans would plummet. Amazon is given the opportunity to ship via the USPS at a cost that even Walmart can't approach. Free access highways benefit business. Subsidized trains. Subsidized employee health care. And yes, even subsidized retirement all benefit business. And with all this help did the people get a break? Not hardly. They got the bill.

America has 724 billionaires. Their net worth is greater than the total wealth of the continent of Africa. They are worth more than the total wealth of Switzerland or Taiwan. They could literally buy Belgium. Prefer GDP? Their net worth is greater than the GDP of Germany. About the same as Canada, Italy and France combined.

My fellow Republicans go into a fit whenever anyone uses the term "fair" but such a thing exists. If we were to spread this wealth around a bit, by not subsidizing it with tax money for example, we would all be better off.

But NOOOO. That is SOCIALISM :eek: Well it is not but there are no members of the Republican party who are smart enough to know that. (Except the leadership, which was purchased by the folks long ago.)




"America has 724 billionaires. Their net worth is greater than the total wealth of the continent of Africa." - Your point?

Sorry, "fair" is not a system where half the country are freeloaders paying no taxes or even getting a refund after paying zippy, and the goal is to vote in more people to give you more free shit.

We're past the point where as they say "you run out of money". You know all this very well.


#15241795
This is not about "free shit". That is just your mostly racist dodge. This is about working people earning a fraction of what their fathers earned.
#15241797
Drlee wrote:This is not about "free shit". That is just your mostly racist dodge. This is about working people earning a fraction of what their fathers earned.


Hey pal, people come from the worst economic circumstances and surpass others along the way. This is about making your own success and not constantly whining (like you do).

With all the educational subsidies out there, the military opening the doors to great careers and most people with the DRIVE to succeed actually making it, why do you keep poor-mouthing and making excuses?

Seriously, you're starting to sound like an entitled little brat. I shouldn't be surprised. This is PoFo, of course.

If the effort isn't made, of course the results are not surprising.
#15241813
Hey pal, people come from the worst economic circumstances and surpass others along the way. This is about making your own success and not constantly whining (like you do).

With all the educational subsidies out there, the military opening the doors to great careers and most people with the DRIVE to succeed actually making it, why do you keep poor-mouthing and making excuses?

Seriously, you're starting to sound like an entitled little brat. I shouldn't be surprised. This is PoFo, of course.

If the effort isn't made, of course the results are not surprising.


Making my own success? :lol:

I'm doing just fine by any standards. And I did not inherit my money. The military and education? You are talking the story of my life.

Less than 1/2 of American youth qualify for the military. It is not a right to serve anyway.

I am sure you feel quite superior every time you visit a retail store. All of those losers sucking up to you. And doing it for peanuts. Working full time at a difficult job that YOU very much benefit from them doing and not earning enough to pay for a studio apartment. And it is their fault.

You really need to go to church. Real church. Not some prosperity Gospel money machine.

The other day I had the roof coated on my house. One of the workers and I got into a conversation. He was taking a short break from working on a roof in the Arizona summer sun. That is about as hard a job as there is. He earned in a day about what I earn an hour. But I guess you are fine with that. After all. We really don't need roofers. We can get some illegals to do that anyway.

Sometimes Bluto you just come across as an idiot.
#15241884
@Drlee, @BlutoSays is exactly the kind of mindset/person corporations in America love. Corporations want working people to blame each other, to blame democrats, to blame republicans, and not blame the overall system. A system that creates inflation for working people, but not for corporations, and not for rich people. As long as we're busy blaming each other, as long as we're busy with racial shit (as Bluto and scamp are), as long as we're busy arguing about whatever "issue" that isn't the actual lopsided economic system. The economic system and it's lopsided rules will remain in place, and continue to benefit mostly Corporations and the rich.

When someone like bluto reads what I just said, they will automatically assume that I'm calling for communism (I'm not) or some other dumbshit, which is a clear indicator of how fucking successfully brainwashed many of us are. or: how stupid we are.

Thus, as long as people like Bluto exist (and they exist on the American left and right). We just have to accept that these issues will continue. This is why I teach my kids about how the system is stacked against working people, and I teach them how to maneuver around it. It isn't really about "pulling yourself by the bootstraps and work hard or whatever" It's really more about how to game the system that is setup to fuck people.

Anyway, basically, I teach my kids to play the game, but to also figure out how we can change the rules too and take power away from corporations.

Bluto is probably having a tantrum thinking I'm a communist. :lol:
#15241889
Rancid wrote:@Drlee, @BlutoSays is exactly the kind of mindset/person corporations in America love. Corporations want working people to blame each other, to blame democrats, to blame republicans, and not blame the overall system. A system that creates inflation for working people, but not for corporations, and not for rich people. As long as we're busy blaming each other, as long as we're busy with racial shit (as Bluto and scamp are), as long as we're busy arguing about whatever "issue" that isn't the actual lopsided economic system. The economic system and it's lopsided rules will remain in place, and continue to benefit mostly Corporations and the rich.

When someone like bluto reads what I just said, they will automatically assume that I'm calling for communism (I'm not) or some other dumbshit, which is a clear indicator of how fucking successfully brainwashed many of us are. or: how stupid we are.

Thus, as long as people like Bluto exist (and they exist on the American left and right). We just have to accept that these issues will continue. This is why I teach my kids about how the system is stacked against working people, and I teach them how to maneuver around it. It isn't really about "pulling yourself by the bootstraps and work hard or whatever" It's really more about how to game the system that is setup to fuck people.

Anyway, basically, I teach my kids to play the game, but to also figure out how we can change the rules too and take power away from corporations.

Bluto is probably having a tantrum thinking I'm a communist. :lol:


Here's where you fail. You don't have the interest or the depth to dig deep into it, so you use words like "the system".

As much as you hate corporate welfare, you're the first to promote it. You want wind turbines paid for by fed.gov and procured from China. You want foodstamps paid for by the state and federal governments, never recognizing that many stay on it for decades to life, are never ever audited, and the end benficiaries are the Safeways, Krogers, 7-11's and Publix. Same with nationalized health care - the medical providers get the dollars from the tax payer with little to no oversight and it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Same with educational loans, Section 8 housing, insurance and banking, etc.

All the BIG things in your life are HEAVILY regulated by Uncle Sham, the outcomes are poor and morons like you want more of it "regulated" (AKA choosing winners and losers). You have no other answers to turn the steering wheel. For you, it's always the same.... step on the gas harder.

YOU don't take power away from corporations. You push BS like ethanol and enable corporations even more over decades. To the point that you don't even remember why we do what we do.

The system is stacked against working people? Then stop fucking demanding more of that system! It's apparent YOU personally want more programmed "safe" outcomes where a larger and larger part of everyone's paycheck falls under the guise of mandatory spending by DC for ____insert your favorite pet projects here_____ , and then when government is spending $400 for a hammer, you think it's not because of you. It's exactly because of you demanding Washington "do more". The more Washington does, the worse things get, through unintended consequences and ruling by a centralized authority and the slopiness that promotes.

It's maddening to see what you actually support and then you whine when you actually get what you wanted to get. :lol:

What we are experiencing now is no accident. It is the poor decisions made that we're living with by "masterminds" who really don't know WTF they're doing. All they know is it sounds good on paper and to show "empathy", they need to do more of it. And then shit breaks piece by piece as we do more management by crisis.

As I've said again and again, you can get better results from a random number generator than what the establishment politicians foist on us.


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#15241891
BlutoSays wrote:
Here's where you fail. You don't have the interest or the depth to dig deep into it



If irony was explosive, your state would be a smoking cinder right about now.

Thanks for the laugh.
#15241894
late wrote:If irony was explosive, your state would be a smoking cinder right about now.

Thanks for the laugh.


You don't have the depth for it either. Basic economics befuddle your dumb ass, and that's apparent from your lack of any material on the subject, and your constant cheer for failed policies.

You, more than anyone, has probably been on the government tit your whole life.


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#15241915
Rancid wrote:THis guy cannot have a real conversation.


"real conversation" - people agreeing with you.
#15241923
BlutoSays wrote:
You don't have the depth for it either. Basic economics befuddle your dumb ass



Actually, I came to economics through my study of history.

The traditional methods were missing something, and that turned out to be economics.

The Wheels of Commerce was a ground breaking work in history:



It's a 3 volume set, I own all of them. I can go over my other books on economics, but you have no interest at all in the real thing. Just the Right wing cartoon version.

This isn't for you, if anyone wants to start, a good, easy introduction to economics that has been the first book in many Econ 101 classes is Cities and the Wealth of Nations, by Jane Jacobs



Any library anywhere can get you a copy, and it doesn't take long at all to read, and you'll be glad you did.
#15241942
The richest American ever is widely considered to be John D. Rockefeller, worth about $400 billion in inflation-adjusted dollars, or about 2% of the United States GDP. Members of his family continue to be some of the wealthiest people in U.S. history.
Dollar inflation: 1900-2022
Year Dollar Value Inflation Rate
1900 $100.00 1.20%
1901 $101.19 1.19%
1902 $102.38 1.18%
1903 $104.76 2.33%
1904 $105.95 1.14%
1905 $104.76 -1.12%
1906 $107.14 2.27%
1907 $111.90 4.44%
1908 $109.52 -2.13%
1909 $108.33 -1.09%
1910 $113.10 4.40%
1911 $113.10 0.00%
1912 $115.48 2.11%
1913 $117.86 2.06%
1914 $119.05 1.01%
1915 $120.24 1.00%
1916 $129.76 7.92%
1917 $152.38 17.43%
1918 $179.76 17.97%
1919 $205.95 14.57%
1920 $238.10 15.61%
1921 $213.10 -10.50%
1922 $200.00 -6.15%
1923 $203.57 1.79%
1924 $203.57 0.00%
1925 $208.33 2.34%
1926 $210.71 1.14%
1927 $207.14 -1.69%
1928 $203.57 -1.72%
1929 $203.57 0.00%
1930 $198.81 -2.34%
1931 $180.95 -8.98%
1932 $163.10 -9.87%
2022 $3,527.51 9.35%*
#15242125
The problem with folks like Bluto is that they have been fed on a diet of Fox News memes and facile bullet points. Slogan after slogan. The shallow end of the pool.

What is the scapegoat today? Does Bluto realize that food stamps and Obama Care are two of the largest corporate welfare programs in history? Do they benefit the poor? Only to the extent that these poor can give money to corporations. Bluto points this out but doesn't understand that the alternative is not to stop these programs but to force employers to pay a living wage. He can't make that connection. The shallow end of the pool. There was a time when conservative Republicans knew this. But not lately.

Now we have Republicans wanting to put Social Security on the chopping block. One of those socialist programs people like Bluto hate. Maybe we should look to Republican leadership for the answer to Bluto's concern.

The money that goes into Social Security is not the government's money. it's your money. You paid for it.
Mitch McConnell


We all know that Social Security is one of this country's greatest success stories in the 20th century.
Mitch McConnell


You know. Like conservatives would stop welfare waste. Well except George Bush who signed into law the largest welfare program since Medicare/Medicade. A program that makes Obamacare look like pocket change. The Prescription Drug Act. And did it without raising one cent of revenue to pay for it.

But McConnell, THE Republican leader would not expect the rich to pay more. Would he?

I've said repeatedly publicly, and other members have, that until you adjust the eligibility for entitlements, do things like raising the age for Medicare for future beneficiaries. Not for those currently receiving or those about to receive. Have serious means testing for high income people. You know Warren Buffett's always complaining about not paying enough taxes. And what I'm complaining about is we're paying for his Medicare. We ought not to be providing these kinds of benefits for millionaires and billionaires.
Mitch McConnell


Wow. Higher taxes on the wealthy. He sounds like a democrat socialist communist.

You see Bluto reads the uber conservative Texas Senator when he says this:

Why is it that half of the households in America pay zero income tax? We need some real tax reform.
John Cornyn


And why does he not ask himself why half of the households in America earn so little money that they can't afford to pay income tax.

And he further does not understand that this is just income tax. Those half of households pay very significant taxes.

Sound bites. Don't ask hard questions. The shallow end of the pool.
#15242134
The days of cheap money are over. I think raising interest rates is great. We need to replenish the tank after all the rate drops over the last 20 years anyway. Also, I'm hoping this helps put a damper on housing inflation, though that is wishful thinking.
#15242137
Drlee wrote:The problem with folks like Bluto is that they have been fed on a diet of Fox News memes and facile bullet points. Slogan after slogan. The shallow end of the pool.

What is the scapegoat today? Does Bluto realize that food stamps and Obama Care are two of the largest corporate welfare programs in history? Do they benefit the poor? Only to the extent that these poor can give money to corporations. Bluto points this out but doesn't understand that the alternative is not to stop these programs but to force employers to pay a living wage. He can't make that connection. The shallow end of the pool. There was a time when conservative Republicans knew this. But not lately.

Now we have Republicans wanting to put Social Security on the chopping block. One of those socialist programs people like Bluto hate. Maybe we should look to Republican leadership for the answer to Bluto's concern.





You know. Like conservatives would stop welfare waste. Well except George Bush who signed into law the largest welfare program since Medicare/Medicade. A program that makes Obamacare look like pocket change. The Prescription Drug Act. And did it without raising one cent of revenue to pay for it.

But McConnell, THE Republican leader would not expect the rich to pay more. Would he?



Wow. Higher taxes on the wealthy. He sounds like a democrat socialist communist.

You see Bluto reads the uber conservative Texas Senator when he says this:



And why does he not ask himself why half of the households in America earn so little money that they can't afford to pay income tax.

And he further does not understand that this is just income tax. Those half of households pay very significant taxes.

Sound bites. Don't ask hard questions. The shallow end of the pool.


Yes, we need to force corps to pay a min. wage that is livable.

Right now we need to do much more to stop global climate change, if we don't we are cooked, literally cooked by high temps.

If it weren't for ACC, I would now be calling for protectionism. By this I mean protect the American workers from low cost imported goods driving US corps to reduce wages to be able to compete. In the 1780s this is what Pres. Washington did to protect US manufacturing comps so they could get established to make hammers and shovels, etc. in the US.
. . . This would take an entirely new economic theory, but because MS econ. theory is based on a fantasy world built on lies, we need a new theory anyway.

Yes, I would (if no ACC) also think that the US needs to help the poor nations. We could start by stopping exploiting them. Reform the IMF and World Bank. Give them grants, not loans.

Yes, I know my thoughts are "pie in the sky". Is it also pie in the sky to think that humanity has a future and so will not be extinct in 100 years?
.
Last edited by Steve_American on 08 Aug 2022 03:40, edited 1 time in total.
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