The Myth of Late Stage Capitalism - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15082979
I guess we have to dig up this thread because it appears the dead are as yet unsettled. It appears that the leftists still believe in the story of Late Capitalism. It was originally dreamed up by a marxist called Werner Sombat in the early 20th century. It is not clear to me what he originally meant by that but by the 1970s a marxist called Ernst Mandel wrote a book called Late Capitalism in which he described the post-war period from 1940 to his present day as Late Capitalism. Not sure where that puts us here in the 21st century... Maybe this is the Post Late Capitalism Period? Is capitalism late for his own funeral?? :lol:

Anyway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_capitalism is as good a place to start to get a grip on the timeline for developing the prophecy.
#15083022
SolarCross wrote:
No sorry Late Capitalism actually is a marxist prophecy. You can talk about other poeple's prophecies and sell their books elsewhere.



Nobody is buying Red Scare propaganda.

The world has moved on, you should too.

Actually, it had moved on a long time ago:

#15083025
late wrote:Nobody is buying Red Scare propaganda.

The world has moved on, you should too.

Actually, it had moved on a long time ago:

This forum is top-heavy with out-of-touch has-been communists from yesteryear. There is no red scare but one can hardly have a conversation here without ideological zombies jumping out of the mass graves of history to rave in lieu of argument some nonsense like "but muh late capitalism!" as if that is supposed to mean anything in the 21st century. That being the case we may as well have a thread or two looking at their fantasies. What do you care, anyway? Aren't you supposed to be a liberal? Go back to your "End of History" prophecy which has also failed to come true. :lol:
#15083033
SolarCross wrote:This forum is top-heavy with out-of-touch has-been communists from yesteryear. There is no red scare but one can hardly have a conversation here without ideological zombies jumping out of the mass graves of history to rave in lieu of argument some nonsense like "but muh late capitalism!" as if that is supposed to mean anything in the 21st century. That being the case we may as well have a thread or two looking at their fantasies. What do you care, anyway? Aren't you supposed to be a liberal? Go back to your "End of History" prophecy which has also failed to come true. :lol:


Can you provide a link of someone on this forum using this phrase?

Thanks.
#15083034
SolarCross wrote:
1) This forum is top-heavy will out-of-touch has-been communists from yesteryear.

2) There is no red scare but one can hardly have a conversation here without ideological zombies jumping out of the mass graves of history

3) That being the case we may as well have a thread or two looking at their fantasies.

4) What do you care, anyway? Aren't you supposed to be a liberal?

5) Go back to your "End of History" prophecy which has also failed to come true.



1) You count like an astronomer, one, two, millions.

2) Thanks for the chuckle. You're talking about yourself.

3) We have a constant deluge of obsolete BS.

4) Just do, bad habit.

5) Fukuayama??? Oh, the puns I could get out of that.

Fukuyama was a Right wing nobody. So you have that part backwards. Because 'end of history' is catchy, the media picked up on it. It wasn't adopted by academia, and time has savaged the idea.

I am getting the idea that everything you know is both wrong and obsolete.
#15083040
late wrote:1) You count like an astronomer, one, two, millions.

You are new here but it is hardly a secret that pofo has an unusually large number of commies. It is not revleft of course but there are a lot all the same though perhaps not as many as there used to be.

late wrote:2) Thanks for the chuckle. You're talking about yourself.

I do not see how I could be, since I do not have an ideology. If I had one then it is of my own creation and still a work-in-progress and as such could not be a zombie. If it is still being worked on it can't very well be dead, though of course it may have other faults.

late wrote:3) We have a constant deluge of obsolete BS.

Sure and it is tiresome but it passes the time.

late wrote:4) Just do, bad habit.

Well don't, we hardly need (faux?) liberals white knighting for zombie marxists. What is dead may never die.

late wrote:5) Fukuayama??? Oh, the puns I could get out of that.

Fukuyama was a Right wing nobody. So you have that part backwards. Because 'end of history' is catchy, the media picked up on it. It wasn't adopted by academia, and time has savaged the idea.

I wonder what kind of liberal describes arch-liberals as "right wing".. free markets, democracy, freedom of speech etc. Is that not your bag?
late wrote:I am getting the idea that everything you know is both wrong and obsolete.

That is true of everyone, you too.
#15083042
SolarCross wrote:
I wonder what kind of liberal describes arch-liberals as "right wing"



What the hell is a 'arch' liberal?

Fukuyama was a Right wing Sovietologist.

"Even among little magazines, The National Interest was little. Launched in 1985 by Irving Kristol, the leading figure in neoconservatism, it had by 1989 a circulation of six thousand. Fukuyama himself was virtually unknown outside the world of professional Sovietologists..."

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/09/03/francis-fukuyama-postpones-the-end-of-history
#15083045
"arch" comes from a greek word "to lead" thus words like archbishop means leading bishop, arch enemy means main enemy etc.

Thus an arch liberal would be a leading liberal. Perhaps Fukuyama was obscure in his day, I guess the fall of the USSR gave him a window of opportunity for some fame. Thirty years on he can't be that obscure if I have heard of him.

So how do you classify yourself when you not shilling for the CPC? Once again I ask whose side are you on?
#15083048
SolarCross wrote:
"arch" comes from a greek word "to lead" thus words like archbishop means leading bishop, arch enemy means main enemy etc.

Thus an arch liberal would be a leading liberal. Perhaps Fukuyama was obscure in his day, I guess the fall of the USSR gave him a window of opportunity for some fame. Thirty years on he can't be that obscure if I have heard of him.

So how do you classify yourself when you not shilling for the CPC? Once again I ask whose side are you on?



He was never a liberal.

If you're going to troll me, you're going to have to try a lot harder.
#15083054
Robert Urbanek wrote:Perhaps the term "late stage capitalism" should be replaced with "corona capitalism" to demonstrate how government gives huge bailouts (welfare) to capitalists anytime the system is under stress.


This time around, they are trying something different, which is give more money to small businesses, and to the people themselves. THis bailout is a little bit different.... a little bit. For this reason, I think capitalism in its current form will survive this virus.

As for the concept of late stage capitalism. People will continue to claim it for decades to come, until one day, they will be right and say "I told you so" :lol: You know, kind of like people that constantly yell "the end is neigh". I mean, eventually they will be right. :lol:
#15083057
late wrote:Nobody is buying Red Scare propaganda.

The world has moved on, you should too.

Actually, it had moved on a long time ago:


Yes you're so right. At the time "Revolution" was recorded the cesspit that was Maoist China had just unleashed a flu pandemic upon the world. Lucky things are so different now.
#15083069
Rancid wrote:This time around, they are trying something different, which is give more money to small businesses, and to the people themselves. THis bailout is a little bit different.... a little bit. For this reason, I think capitalism in its current form will survive this virus.


True. But to keep key infrastructure such as auto and aerospace production amongst other things alive, some of the biggest names will need huge bailouts if they are going to survive this. And I don't think any government (except America) are going to bail them out this time. I think they are going to nationalise them. For one because manufacturing has shown how vital it is within your borders as proven with this pandemic and two in order to retain as many jobs as possible whilst saying their nation is open for business - whilst paying a low price for these vital collapsed businesses. This is only a prediction. I don't know what governments are going to do when Boeing Ford or Airbus come knocking. But I do know that if these companies go bust and nations want to keep their production, nationalisation of key production is the first steps to Socialism and that is a sign of late stage Capitalism. Because whilst SolarCross is still confusing Socialism with fascism, what he should be focusing on now is how governments act to save businessses to see how long Capitalism has to survive.

As for the concept of late stage capitalism. People will continue to claim it for decades to come, until one day, they will be right and say "I told you so" :lol: You know, kind of like people that constantly yell "the end is neigh". I mean, eventually they will be right. :lol:


Well I agree late capitalism will come with a bang and without warning. But the system is only as good as its latest fix. Without national help, the financial Insitution would have collapsed in 2008 - which is ironic for a free libertarian model - and that would have ceased cash flow and in turn currencies mythical value. Nonetheless a system based on a mountain of debt, Capitalism is doomed to fail when people refuse or cannot pay back their debt even if the institutes are still able to function. And I don't think that is that far away if you are talking about mass unemployment and potential shortages and inflation from this. I can well image people asking for their slice of the pie when their bellies are hungry. Basically don't rule out capitalism surviving this. Because I don't.
#15083075
B0ycey wrote:True. But to keep key infrastructure such as auto and aerospace production amongst other things alive, some of the biggest names will need huge bailouts if they are going to survive this. And I don't think any government (except America) are going to bail them out this time. I think they are going to nationalise them. For one because manufacturing has shown how vital it is within your borders as proven with this pandemic and two in order to retain as many jobs as possible whilst saying their nation is open for business - whilst paying a low price for these vital collapsed businesses. This is only a prediction. I don't know what governments are going to do when Boeing Ford or Airbus come knocking. But I do know that if these companies go bust and nations want to keep their production, nationalisation of key production is the first steps to Socialism and that is a sign of late stage Capitalism. Because whilst SolarCross is still confusing Socialism with fascism, what he should be focusing on now is how governments act to save businessses to see how long Capitalism has to survive.

Governments do not have any money. They can get it from only two sources taxes on private citizens and money counterfeiting. Money counter-feiting is part of the problem. Most governments have massive debt issues to boot. It is hard to say who will go bankrupt first. Regardless even if your preferred scenario comes true where a few big businesses get taken over by a government that is not the end of capitalism unless the government nationalises EVERY SINGLE business no matter how small or how healthy. There is no way they would do that because is it just crazy and will just result in mass starvation and total collapse. Bureaucrats tend to be pretty lazy and they like nice things, so it is not in their interests to do more than skim off the top of private enterprise. Actually running businesses themselves is too much like hard work for them and they will tend to run them into the ground through incompetence and neglect. Since all the nice things they like to buy for themselves would no longer be available if they ruined the companies than made them then they will have to go without too.

B0ycey wrote:Well I agree late capitalism will come with a bang and without warning. But the system is only as good as its latest fix. Without national help, the financial Insitution would have collapsed in 2008 - which is ironic for a free libertarian model - and that would have ceased cash flow and in turn currencies mythical value. Nonetheless a system based on a mountain of debt, Capitalism is doomed to fail when people refuse or cannot pay back their debt even if the institutes are still able to function. And I don't think that is that far away if you are talking about mass unemployment and potential shortages and inflation from this. I can well image people asking for their slice of the pie when their bellies are hungry. Basically don't rule out capitalism surviving this. Because I don't.

The "collapse" of 2008 was the direct consequence of decades of money counter-feiting. Free market libertarians have been warning about this for just as long.
#15083085
@SolarCross, there are two methods where Capitalism ends. This first which is quite quick where the populous storms government and takes over and brings forward a Socialist Government - which historically happens during times of struggle and the second is a slow progress of many many years where governments take over failed businesses and nationalises them for the good of the nation and enterprises cannot compete with them due to the demand of profit and ultimately collapse to then be nationalised. And under both scenarios it will be the lack of cash flow that causes these reactions. You might not like QE or "Printing Money" (or "counterfeiting Money" as you call it), but without doing that the cash flow stops and Capitalism dies straight away. The 2008 financial bailout was basically to get Capitalism beating again. So don't forget that when you criticized the methods of MMT.
Last edited by B0ycey on 09 Apr 2020 19:25, edited 1 time in total.
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