I actually like Steve Keen along with MMT. Also, Mark Blyth & Stephanie Kelton talk about MMT. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15109703
I actually like Steve Keen along with MMT.
Dr. Keen adds private debt to the problems that MMT addresses. He sees that private debt has caused 150 Recessions over the last 200 years and Gov. debt, specifically excessive deficit spending, has caused just 6 hyperinflations. [According to one set of definitions.]
He is calling for a Debt Jubilee to reduce the private debt loads. Functionally, he wants there to be a fairly large UBI for some years to provide dollars to those in debt to pay down their private debt. To be fair those who have little debt should get it too. Those who are filthy rich don't need it, so might not be given it, but they're so rich that they will not notice it. There may be some in the middle-class who don't deserve it, but I don't know who they might be. Therefore, it should be Universal.
. . . Steve wants people who have no debts be required to invest it in corps. so the corps. can pay down their debts too. I don't see why this is a good idea. The really poor need money now to spend now. Making them investment it just gives a way for someone to cheat them out of some of it when they sell those investments to get money to make their lives better now.
. . . As I see it the last few decades have seen flat or negative real wages that has led to the massive private debt. These flat wages have effected those who have no debts (because they had no credit because they were Black for example) just as much as those who do have debts to pay down (because they could get credit). Another reason for the high private debt level is the low interest rates that were kept low to try to get the economy moving faster, especially after the GFC/2008. This let corps. borrow too much.
. . . Basically, Dr. Keen's UBI is just to give the people money that they should have gotten over the last few decades to pay down their debts so that they don't have that debt burden going forward.
. . . I'm not sure about his amounts, but maybe in the US it would be $1500/mo. per adult and $500 to $1000 per child. This would be continued for about 3 years or so.

See also, the 1st reply for Dr. Steve Keen in his own words.

________________________ ________________________________________

Mark Blyth & Stephanie Kelton talk about MMT in the current covid crisis .42 min. long




Another talk by Real Vision with Stephanie while on her book selling tour. 57 min. long.

Last edited by Steve_American on 25 Jul 2020 06:50, edited 1 time in total.
#15110869
@Crantag,
[In summary, if I understand the implications of his plan correctly; ---
In the long run over several recessions and debt jubilees, the banks loan money and collect interest. This lets the private sector have a lot of power to decide who gets loans and lets banks make money with the interest they get.
. . . However, the loans are moved from the banks to the US Gov. which can sell bonds or not and doesn't need the interest. The Gov. basically forgives the loans. The result is the borrowers get forgiveness on some of their debts (which instantly lets them spend more instead of making debt payments), the frugal people (which includes most Black, brown, etc. Americans who have no credit and so no bank debts) get shares in corps. (which I think they can sell for cash), and the corps. trade shares for forgiveness on some of their debts.
. . . And, this doesn't cause any inflation.]

If I understand Prof. Steve Keen correctly, he is not talking about a Debt Jubilee, now in the covid-crisis. He wants to pay down the private debt in the US (or other full fiat currency nations). This not going to happen now when people need income just to survive. So, later, after some sort of new normal has been achieved do the Debt Jubilee.

Also, the Debt Jubilee does not create many net dollars in the economy. You see, the dollars were created when the banks made loans and were o-set by the repayment note. Normally the dollars will be destroyed when they are paid back to the bank (if you remember the value of the repayment not is going down as the debt is paid off). That is when the borrower makes a payment he loses the dollars, but the bank gets the dollars and also loses some value in the note. So, the bank doesn't get the dollars, it just gets the interest.
. . . So, the Debt Jubilee dollars under his plan are just used to pay down the people's debts or are used to give the frugal people assets in corps. that are gaining a reduction in their debts. Therefore, all the money is going to banks where it gives the banks cash but reduces their assets in an equal amount.
. . . Therefore, there is no net increase in the money supply. Therefore, there should be no inflation as a result.
. . . So, then the banks have the cash and less assets. But banks love assets.
. . . If the US Gov. decides to sell bonds to finance the Debt Jubilee, then the banks will have the cash/dollars to buy about exactly all the bonds the Gov. will have to sell for the Debt Jubilee.

It is hard to see, but if I understand the implications of all this correctly; ---
In the long run over several recessions and debt jubilees, the banks loan money and collect interest. This lets the private sector have a lot of power to decide who gets loans and lets banks make money with the interest they get.
. . . However, the loans are moved from the banks to the US Gov. which can sell bonds or not and doesn't need the interest. The Gov. basically forgives the loans. The result is the borrowers get forgiveness on some of their debts (which instantly lets them spend more instead of making debt payments), the frugal people (which includes most Black, brown, etc. Americans who have no credit and so no bank debts) get shares in corps. (which I think they can sell for cash), and the corps. trade shares for forgiveness on some of their debts.
. . . And, this doesn't cause any inflation.
. . . Do I have this right?

Come on someone (Crantag?), understand the plan . . . And, this doesn't cause an inflation.and its effects, and tell me if I got it right? Or not.
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#15111618
I'll respond because you mentioned me and evoked my name and stuff. I'll probably be brief though.

I'll say that you make a good commentary here, and it's nothing to be disagreeable about.

I can't really be bothered to watch those lengthy videos.

I'll say on MMT that I really can't get behind an economics creed such as it, which is really a sort of imperialist economics, as I see it. It is based on using America's position of exorbitant privilege (as the issuer of the base currency) to further exploit the rest of the world, as I see it. I won't make MMTers my bedfellows, mostly for that reason.

Ask yourself, would this work in Thailand? I know you will say yes, because Thailand issues it's own currency. Then, I will ask you to think more deeply. Will it really dude? Really? I'm sure you will continue to say yes, and then I will say, no, no it won't, dude.

No, I will not support imperialist monetary policy.

I will support cancelling debt in America, but you know as well as I, that is simply not going to happen, and that at the end of the day, us Americans (and I'm back in America now, by the way), we are just worker bees, and cattle, as far as the government is concerned. Feel free to disagree. And I will tell you that we will have to agree to disagree.



And try to respond with less than 10,000 words, if you can please. Kind regards.
#15111626
Thank you Crantag for replying.
Not in order.
As I see it, any nation that has its own fiat currency, owes little in any other currency, floats its currency, and exports more than it imports can have larger so-called deficits like MMT says. I don't know if Thailand meets these criteria.

Prof. Keen is not saying to cancel any debts. Not cancel, pay off with free money from the US Gov. or national Gov. elsewhere. It may happen but it seems unlikely until a Progressive Party takes over.

I don't grok why or how you think that MMT would let the US be more imperialistic. Today, many nations are willing to trade their stuff for US dollars. I don't know why they do it. They can just stop doing it at any time. Unless you think that the US like France will send in assassination squads to kill the leaders who cross them. I certainly oppose such behavior, but I have zero say. So, how does MMT make the US more able to be more imperialistic?
. . I just see MMT as being good for the mass of Americans. One of the key MMT policies is the Federally funded, but locally run (with some oversight and maybe even a separate program by the Gov. if the locals don't hire Blacks for example) Job Guarantee Program to replace the Unemployment payment Program. AFAIK, this just effects Americans in America and has zero foreign effects. MMT also lets the Gov. pay for more programs that help the mass of Americans (like better healthcare, cheaper college, green new deal, stronger economy) that again mostly effect Americans in America.
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#15111907
@Crantag,
Did you see my reply?

If yes, then I'll just say this.

So, you see the US as an imperial power that crushes the people of other nations.
OK, I can see some truth in that.
Therefore, you want to punish the US for doing that.
OK, I can see some justice in that.

However, why can't you see that Neo-liberalism is crushing the mass of Americans and making the American billionaires richer?
Why can't you see that you are punishing the wrong people AND enabling the billionaires (who run the American Gov.) at the same time?
How is this getting you justice?

If MMT was implemented in the US this would do a few things.
1] The American people would be better off.
2] The Am.billionaires would lose some wealth and so be punished at least a little.
3] The example to the world of the US doing fine with MMT, would IMHO, cause the people of the world to get their govs. to use MMT also. This would reduce the negative effects imposed on the people being crushed by America.

It seems like this would get you more justice for the sins of the Am. Gov..
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#15111990
Crantag wrote:Ask yourself, would this work in Thailand? I know you will say yes, because Thailand issues it's own currency. Then, I will ask you to think more deeply. Will it really dude? Really? I'm sure you will continue to say yes, and then I will say, no, no it won't, dude.

No, I will not support imperialist monetary policy.


I think MMT acknowledges that monetary sovereignty is a spectrum, not a binary. Even if you issue your own currency, domestic resource and productivity constraints can still entail borrowing in foreign currency - as is typically the case with developing economies.

See Fadhel Kaboub: Monetary Sovereignty, Colonialism and Independence.

The MMT point is that real resources are the constraint, not scarcity of domestic currency/govt deficits. Developing economies aren't like households either, and the IMF et al have done great harm by imposing 'fiscal rules' as if they were.

Countries with more monetary sovereignty have an advantage, but not through "doing" MMT, which just describes it. Not sure about the charge of "imperialism". If, say, the US or UK were to pursue full employment through public spending, would that be extractive of developing economies?
#15112264
SueDeNîmes wrote:
I think MMT acknowledges that monetary sovereignty is a spectrum, not a binary. Even if you issue your own currency, domestic resource and productivity constraints can still entail borrowing in foreign currency - as is typically the case with developing economies.

See Fadhel Kaboub: Monetary Sovereignty, Colonialism and Independence.

The MMT point is that real resources are the constraint, not scarcity of domestic currency/govt deficits. Developing economies aren't like households either, and the IMF et al have done great harm by imposing 'fiscal rules' as if they were.

Countries with more monetary sovereignty have an advantage, but not through "doing" MMT, which just describes it. Not sure about the charge of "imperialism". If, say, the US or UK were to pursue full employment through public spending, would that be extractive of developing economies?

Yes, MMTers do talk about developing nations as not being as free of constraints as developed nations.
In fact, IIRC, in this post in the link with Stephanie Kelton talking with mark Blyth about her new book, she does talk about exactly this point near the end.
Nations with a trade surplus have it much easier to have complete freedom, though.

I had a thought reading your post.
Maybe nations that have been forced by the rules of the IMF into stupid policies as if nations are like households can sue in the World Court of Justice and claim that the UN Charter and rules do not allow the IMF to make or enforce such rules.
. . . My parallel is the USSC ruling that land/house deeds that stipulated that the property could never be sold to a Black or Jew are unconstitutional.
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#15113476
SueDeNîmes wrote:I dunno, Steve. Yer IMFs and ECBs have been knocking out research papers showing that austerity doesn't work for about 10 years but haven't changed policy accordingly.

What do you do.. fine them?

If I was Pres. of the US, I would sue them both in the world court and the EU wide court.
I'd have my team use their own papers as evidence and well is all other evidence (like what I say here).
I'd lean on them hard also.
It is better than doing nothing, right?
If I have any power over the IMF, like I appoint a director, then I'd fire that one and appoint an MMTer to the board of directors.
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