The US is loosing the technology war against China - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15141884
Rancid wrote:I think @B0ycey's outlook is a little too optimistic given the behaviors we've already seen coming from China.


There behaviour is imperialistic not colonial. If they took Taiwan tomorrow, nobody could do anything about it. And they haven't. They behave by what they historically believe was theirs. And they manipulate other nations by playing the game of Capitalism. I am not trying to give China a oneupmanship here, just explanning that they haven't been aggressive by force to any nation and what they do do is either amongst the rules or when they break them according to international treaty, there is historic reasons for why they did it rather than them being opportunistic per se.

If China doesn't use gunboat diplomacy and actually go out their way to engage with world governments today, I don't see them being an issue in the future. In fact I think this rhetoric and belief that China is going to take over the world is more likely to provoke them than anything. Like poking a stick in a dogs face. Eventually they will snap because what you did than what the dog did.
#15141885
Unthinking Majority wrote:China and Hauwei stole their telecommunications and 5G tech from Canada.


Mobile telecommunication was pioneered in Europe, America was always lagging behind.

China is the enemy of the West. A Chinese piece of software or hardware will never enter my home.


The patent system was designed in the West to spread innovation. To protect your invention with a patent you have to disclose it so that others (including the Chinese) can use it for improvements. That the Chinese use it is intended. The problem (to the West) is that the Chinese can make inventions of their own, not that they copy others. By depriving itself of Chinese inventions, the US will lose the technology war against China.

We're all warriors in the New Cold War, choose your sides wisely.


Absolutely, Mr. Rumsfeld! Wise people are not going to follow you into another lost war.

Rancid wrote:Just today, I had to buy a pair of license plate light bulbs for my car. I had a few options, and ultimately selected based on country of origin. I selected the Made in Taiwan over Made in China.

I also did this recently with a guitar amp I bought. I selected Made in Malaysia over Made in China.


Most things from Taiwan are actually made in the PRC and most things exported by Malaysia are actually made by Chinese companies in Malaysia.

The Chinese trade surplus has substantially increased due to Trumps ill-advised trade wars.
#15141886
B0ycey wrote:
There behaviour is imperialistic not colonial. If they took Taiwan tomorrow, nobody could do anything about it. And they haven't. They behave by what they historically believe was theirs. And they manipulate other nations by playing the game of Capitalism. I am not trying to give China a oneupmanship here, just explanning that they haven't been aggressive by force to any nation and what they do do is either amongst the rules or when they break them according to international treaty, there is historic reasons for why they did it rather than them being opportunistic per se.

If China doesn't use gunboat diplomacy and actually go out their way to engage with world governments today, I don't see them being an issue in the future. In fact I think this rhetoric and belief that China is going to take over the world is more likely to provoke them than anything. Like poking a stick in a dogs face. Eventually they will snap because what you did than what the dog did.


We'll see. Still don't buy it. Given their actions.

Atlantis wrote:Most things from Taiwan are actually made in the PRC and most things exported by Malaysia are actually made by Chinese companies in Malaysia.

The Chinese trade surplus has substantially increased due to Trumps ill-advised trade wars.


Of course, but China sees a smaller percentage of the money spent on the product. All of the money on that light bulb I bought doesn't go to China, some goes to Taiwan and the American company who put their brand on it. The Taiwanese factory worker isn't working for free on behalf of China after all.
Last edited by Rancid on 08 Dec 2020 21:41, edited 1 time in total.
#15141887
B0ycey wrote:There behaviour is imperialistic not colonial. If they took Taiwan tomorrow, nobody could do anything about it. And they haven't. They behave by what they historically believe was theirs. And they manipulate other nations by playing the game of Capitalism. I am not trying to give China a oneupmanship here, just explanning that they haven't been aggressive by force to any nation and what they do do is either amongst the rules or when they break them according to international treaty, there is historic reasons for why they did it rather than them being opportunistic per se.

If China doesn't use gunboat diplomacy and actually go out their way to engage with world governments today, I don't see them being an issue in the future. In fact I think this rhetoric and belief that China is going to take over the world is more likely to provoke them than anything. Like poking a stick in a dogs face. Eventually they will snap because what you did than what the dog did.


Colonialism was just one manifestation of imperialism. The Chinese always were bad sailors, that's why they didn't succeed with colonialism.

Their ambition is quite clearly to replace the US as the first global superpower. They don't yet have the military means to achieve that, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't try. They annexed Tibet by force and fought an unsuccessful war against Vietnam. The fact that Vietnam was able to repel a much larger Chinese army shows that the Chinese aren't very good soldiers either.

Without the military means, they will use economic and technological means to spread the Chinese influence. Europe is wise to compete with China on an economic and technological level. The US military approach is doomed to fail. They can't even pacify an impoverished little shithole like Afghanistan.
#15141888
Rancid wrote:Of course, but China sees a smaller percentage of the money spent on the product. All of the money on that light bulb I bought doesn't go to China, some goes to Taiwan and the American company who put their brand on it. The Taiwanese factory worker isn't working for free on behalf of China after all.


It's corporate imperialism, just like US-style franchising. Not every buck earned by KFC worldwide needs to go back to the US. Some can stay in the local economy. The point is that KFC can earn revenues worldwide by making others work and by repatriating a share of the profits. That's what makes the US rich. The same applies to Chinese companies with partners in Taiwan or Malaysia. As long as a share of the profits goes back to HQ, the empire wins.
#15141889
Atlantis wrote:
It's corporate imperialism, just like US-style franchising. Not every buck earned by KFC worldwide needs to go back to the US. Some can stay in the local economy. The point is that KFC can earn revenues worldwide by making others work and by repatriating a share of the profits. That's what makes the US rich. The same applies to Chinese companies with partners in Taiwan or Malaysia. As long as a share of the profits goes back to HQ, the empire wins.


So you agree China is an empire. Or at least aspiring empire?
#15141897
Rancid wrote:This is true. We are at minimum, economic warriors.

Just today, I had to buy a pair of license plate light bulbs for my car. I had a few options, and ultimately selected based on country of origin. I selected the Made in Taiwan over Made in China.

I also did this recently with a guitar amp I bought. I selected Made in Malaysia over Made in China. WIth an instrument cable i bought, I selected made in America (with some European components) versus made in china.

Basically, I try my hardest to avoid made in China. No need in giving an obvious enemy of the west any more money if I don't have to.

I think @B0ycey's outlook is a little too optimistic given the behaviors we've already seen coming from China.

You're a g*d damned patriot.

Also, what guitar amp?
#15141901
Unthinking Majority wrote:You're a g*d damned patriot. Kudos!

Also, what guitar amp?


USA! USA! USA!

Actually, it isn't so much that I'm pro-USA, but pro-western democracy (I don't think it's broken, it can be evolved and fixed, as it has in the past, I'm sure people thought the west was ending during the great depression, WW1, WW2, whatever...). Hence why I think it's important to keep a very strong alliance with Europe, hence why I didn't like Trump since he was shitting on Europe and NATO. Further, I know many don't consider Latin America western, but they most certainly have direct cultural ties to the west (if it didn't have these ties, I wouldn't be able to speak 2 European languages). They speak European languages, follow the same religions, etc. I do wish to see less exploitation and more cooperation with Latin America. I think setting up a true partnership with Latin America is easier than one with China.

Anyway, as for the Guitar amp. Boss Katana (Japan! Japan! Japan!). I was thinking about a Fender Mustang (USA company and all), but the Katana just made the most sense (I only want one amp that can do a lot). It should arrive today but I have the feeling it won't get here till tomorrow. That happens to me a lot, Fedex say's "out for delivery by end of day" and it simply doesn't happen until the next day.

I try to give preference to American companies, but at a minimum I tend to shoot for "not designed in China", better if it can be "not made in China."

I plan to get a new phone in the somewhat near future. It will be a Google Pixel. Reason being, they are assembled in Taiwan, not China, like the iphone. Again, of course China still gets some of he money, but the point is, they don't get all of it.

About 2 years ago, I bought a looper pedal to help me practice. I was researching companies, and found one called Donner. It sounded European to me. I went to their website, and saw something that said "happy birthday china" and some Chinese communism rah rah shit. I was like "oh... fuck that", I instead bought a TC electronics looper, which is a european (Denmark). It's still made in China, but at least its not designed in China.

One of the reasons I'm anti-zoom is even though they are "American" most of the engineering work is done in China.

Who I give my money too, is one of the few things i have control over. I think it's fair to say, I am firmly in the anti-China camp. My wife's family in Hong KOng has been directly impacted by the CCP and their fuckery. Fuck them and their censorship.
#15141907
Rancid wrote:USA! USA! USA!

Actually, it isn't so much that I'm pro-USA, but pro-western democracy (I don't think it's broken, it can be evolved and fixed, as it has in the past, I'm sure people thought the west was ending during the great depression, WW1, WW2, whatever...). Hence why I think it's important to keep a very strong alliance with Europe, hence why I didn't like Trump since he was shitting on Europe and NATO. Further, I know many don't consider Latin America western, but they most certainly have direct cultural ties to the west (if it didn't have these ties, I wouldn't be able to speak 2 European languages). They speak European languages, follow the same religions, etc. I do wish to see less exploitation and more cooperation with Latin America. I think setting up a true partnership with Latin America is easier than one with China.

Anyway, as for the Guitar amp. Boss Katana (Japan! Japan! Japan!). I was thinking about a Fender Mustang (USA company and all), but the Katana just made the most sense (I only want one amp that can do a lot). It should arrive today but I have the feeling it won't get here till tomorrow. That happens to me a lot, Fedex say's "out for delivery by end of day" and it simply doesn't happen until the next day.

I try to give preference to American companies, but at a minimum I tend to shoot for "not designed in China", better if it can be "not made in China."

I plan to get a new phone in the somewhat near future. It will be a Google Pixel. Reason being, they are assembled in Taiwan, not China, like the iphone. Again, of course China still gets some of he money, but the point is, they don't get all of it.

About 2 years ago, I bought a looper pedal to help me practice. I was researching companies, and found one called Donner. It sounded European to me. I went to their website, and saw something that said "happy birthday china" and some Chinese communism rah rah shit. I was like "oh... fuck that", I instead bought a TC electronics looper, which is a european (Denmark). It's still made in China, but at least its not designed in China.

One of the reasons I'm anti-zoom is even though they are "American" most of the engineering work is done in China.

Who I give my money too, is one of the few things i have control over. I think it's fair to say, I am firmly in the anti-China camp. My wife's family in Hong KOng has been directly impacted by the CCP and their fuckery. Fuck them and their censorship.

CHINA! CHINA! CHINA!

#15141910
Potemkin wrote:CHINA! CHINA! CHINA!


:eek: Maybe its time to roll over and let them have their way with me.

@B0ycey, by the way, lots of people would flip their shit if Taiwan was taken by China, as this would mean China has control over the global semi-conductor supply chain. We know they will use their economic leverage on anyone they want (see Australia for starters). TSMC falling into the hands of the CCP would be worse than a mere trade war though.

If you don't know how TSMC is, you should look them up.
#15141916
Unthinking Majority wrote:. We're all warriors in the New Cold War, choose your sides wisely.


We're peasants, fuck sides. I see no reason why oligarch Western Name Here is someone I should lay down and die for. He exploits me just as much as Oligarch Chinese Name Here would.

The only honest thing Trump has ever said was when he called soldiers losers.
#15141918
Fasces wrote:We're peasants, fuck sides. I see no reason why oligarch Western Name Here is someone I should lay down and die for. He exploits me just as much as Oligarch Chinese Name Here would.

That's absolute bullshit. NATO or the US are not as exploitative, violent, and cruel as the Nazis and anyone with half a brain knows it.

Damn right it's about sides. I'm not telling anyone to die. It's an economic and diplomatic war. You fight with your wallet and your voice. There are no bullets...yet.
#15141920
Unthinking Majority wrote:That's absolute bullshit. NATO or the US are not as exploitative, violent, and cruel as the Nazis and anyone with half a brain knows it.


Violent? US hegemonic ambitions are unquestionably more so, especially internationally. Even the worst estimates of the Uygher issue by crackpots like Adrian Zenz claim a million or so lives. The US has killed as many civilians in Iraq alone, to say nothing of the consequences of its foreign policy in regions like Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, and countless other states.

Exploitative? No meaningful or appreciable difference.

Cruel? I interact less with the Chinese state on a day-to-day basis (see fewer police, interact less with regulators) than I ever did the American state apparatus, and have no meaningful experience in either on cruelty, but this is certainly a debatable statement - more so if we get into what you mean by cruelty. The mass imprisonment of Americans raises a few red flags, as does the cruel indifference of the American political elite to those suffering from the pandemic.
#15141924
Unthinking Majority wrote:I see you've chosen the side of the Nazis. Thank you for being honest.

I've chosen the side of the enemies of Nazism, @Unthinking Majority. The East is Red!



:)
#15141930
Fasces wrote:Violent? US hegemonic ambitions are unquestionably more so, especially internationally. Even the worst estimates of the Uygher issue by crackpots like Adrian Zenz claim a million or so lives. The US has killed as many civilians in Iraq alone, to say nothing of the consequences of its foreign policy in regions like Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, and countless other states.

I'm not saying the US are saints, far from it. If China were the global hegemon how do you think they'd behave? Do you really think they'd give any cares to the lives of anyone in the middle east in order to secure stable access to oil.

Call me crazy but I'm not very fond of the idea of a totalitarian regime with zero regard for human rights, whether their own people or foreigners, becoming a global superpower and surpassing the USA.

You've drank the red Kool-Aid, you're a lost cause.
#15141932
Unthinking Majority wrote:If China were the global hegemon how do you think they'd behave?


Based on historical evidence? As a far-off hegemon that doesn't care what you do within your own borders so long as you pay tribute to the emperor.

Based on their stated propaganda and ideas of their powerful foreign minister Li Keqiang? Promote a system of global trade and interaction within the developing world, Westphalian politics where countries don't interfere in the internal affairs of each other, cooperative relationships with partners to that end, and regionally enforcing their claims in the South China Sea and border regions.

Based on my imagined future dystopia motivated entirely by feelings of prejudice, yellow peril propaganda, and the steadfast certainty in the supremacy of the Western way of life at the expense of all others (AKA The Unthinking Worldview)? They're evil Nazis who are gonna treat us 10000x worse than we treated them and treat other brown people, so we must subjugate them for their own good!
Last edited by Fasces on 09 Dec 2020 00:39, edited 1 time in total.
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