[late]

[Steve_American]

There may be a problem.
It came up blank, and then had a grey area with a frowning face with a message about the site may be down for repairs, etc.

Never mind I see it now.
I saw this video months ago.

.

[late]

There may be a problem.
It came up blank, and then had a grey area with a frowning face with a message about the site may be down for repairs, etc.

Never mind I see it now.
I saw this video months ago.

It's not new, but nearly everything he says is a counterexample to what the troll says..

[Steve_American]

It's not new, but nearly everything he says is a counterexample to what the troll says..

It will not convince the troll. He will just say that guy is part of the conspiracy.
It is all fake facts. Only he has the true facts.

.

[late]

It will not convince the troll. He will just say that guy is part of the conspiracy.
It is all fake facts. Only he has the true facts.

Koch's troll army...

[XogGyux]

Food for your thoughts.
Is climate chance denial the real hindrance for action? Flat-out climate deniers are not nearly as numerous. Nowadays you got the "well there is climate change, but it is the sun's fault or the planet is too woobly or it is just a cycle" or something like that "we cannot do much one way or another". And perhaps more importantly you might have the people that accept it is happening, and we are mostly at fault, but they don't really have the will to do much because it does not affect them nearly as much and they would have to make some sacrifices if they want to do something about it. Either way... I am really pissed at the crazy environmentalists that opposed and continue to oppose nuclear. We are seeing this play out in real-time.

[Pants-of-dog]

The real hindrance seems to be politicians. The science is settled, while the politicians seem to have also settled on business as usual, so the subsidies for oil and gas continue while alternative energy is still not being supported to the same extent.

[XogGyux]

The real hindrance seems to be politicians. The science is settled, while the politicians seem to have also settled on business as usual, so the subsidies for oil and gas continue while alternative energy is still not being supported to the same extent.

I Don't see it that way. Not that I would absolve them of any fault. Sure, they are not helpful. But ask yourself, why would a politician opose climate? The reality is that they don't, they just care more about their pocket and their personal careers than they care about taking this seriously. But don't we all? If all 300m American were to agree that we need to tackle this, you wouldn't have that many politicians standing in your way. At the end of the day there is a big chunk that it comes down to personal responsibility. I don't know what you do in your house, but take a look around and tell me... do you truly do absolutely everything you can to do your part? I know I don't and I know most people don't. Forget about doing "everything we can" how about settling on doing 30% of what we could... probably we both would stay short of that.
It is hard, but I think we should try to do as much as possible.

[Pants-of-dog]

I Don't see it that way. Not that I would absolve them of any fault. Sure, they are not helpful. But ask yourself, why would a politician opose climate?

Because they, or their friends, or their donors, or their constituents, are heavily invested in oil and gas exploitation.

The reality is that they don't, they just care more about their pocket and their personal careers than they care about taking this seriously. But don't we all? If all 300m American were to agree that we need to tackle this, you wouldn't have that many politicians standing in your way. At the end of the day there is a big chunk that it comes down to personal responsibility. I don't know what you do in your house, but take a look around and tell me... do you truly do absolutely everything you can to do your part? I know I don't and I know most people don't. Forget about doing "everything we can" how about settling on doing 30% of what we could... probably we both would stay short of that.
It is hard, but I think we should try to do as much as possible.

Yes, I do as much as an individual is capable of doing, and for me to make any more changes to lead a life that is getter for the climate, I would need politicians to, for example, ban cars in city cores or stop handing out money to oil companies.

If I wanted to dream, I would ask the politicians to nationalise the assets of the 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions. If these few companies are producing the majority of GHGs, it is hard to argue that individual actions are the main hindrance, or even a significant one.

[XogGyux]

Because they, or their friends, or their donors, or their constituents, are heavily invested in oil and gas exploitation.

Ultimately, voters is what matters. Yes donors have great influence, they can make advertisements, and influence minds, voters, but at the end of the day... we are all responsible. Koch did not elect trump... we (collective we, I certainly wouldn't vote for that stupid cow) did...

Yes, I do as much as an individual is capable of doing, and for me to make any more changes to lead a life that is getter for the climate, I would need politicians to, for example, ban cars in city cores or stop handing out money to oil companies.

You cannot just do that. That is a recipe for chaos and destruction. The road of authoritarianism is very bumpy. You want to make real change... you need to master the art of persuasion. You have to convince people of doing the right thing, you have to (when possible) reward them and when necessary make show them how to understand what their sacrifice is for. If you just go to NYC and ban cars, next day you are just gonna have a million people in the street burning the city (and releasing CO2 ).

If I wanted to dream, I would ask the politicians to nationalise the assets of the 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions. If these few companies are producing the majority of GHGs, it is hard to argue that individual actions are the main hindrance, or even a significant one.

And then what? Turn them off? You do realize these 100 companies would produce exactly the same amount of CO2 if they are in the hands of rich people vs dictatorship regimes? You think their emissionis would simply vanish? You would have to destroy them for the CO2 to stop coming... and guess what... within a few years companies 101th through 200th will pick up the slack and we would be back to square one in no time at all. Unless you are willing to go back to pre-industrialization times (millions if not billions would die from famine) you are stuck. There is no simple solution, no magic switch that will save us. We need to do our part as much as possible, we need to make compromises (e.g. nuclear, more expensive renewables, sacrifice other parts of the environment, etc)

[late]

You cannot just do that.

Unless you are willing to go back to pre-industrialization times (millions if not billions would die from famine) you are stuck.

He was referring to how Europe is making itself bike friendly. Cars are banned in some areas, just as they are banned from areas here. The Netherlands is leading the way, what they have done is nothing short of amazing.

One of the things that clearly makes cities better is making room for cyclists and pedestrians.

Not only are we not stuck, there are hundreds of things we can, and will, do.

[Pants-of-dog]

Ultimately, voters is what matters. Yes donors have great influence, they can make advertisements, and influence minds, voters, but at the end of the day... we are all responsible. Koch did not elect trump... we (collective we, I certainly wouldn't vote for that stupid cow) did...

Well, most of the people dealing with the negative impacts of climate change are not even US residents, let alone citizens.

But even if we focus on US voters, please note that Biden and previous Democrat POTUS have dome almost nothing for anthropogenic climate change.

You cannot just do that. That is a recipe for chaos and destruction. The road of authoritarianism is very bumpy. You want to make real change... you need to master the art of persuasion. You have to convince people of doing the right thing, you have to (when possible) reward them and when necessary make show them how to understand what their sacrifice is for. If you just go to NYC and ban cars, next day you are just gonna have a million people in the street burning the city (and releasing CO2 ).


And then what? Turn them off? You do realize these 100 companies would produce exactly the same amount of CO2 if they are in the hands of rich people vs dictatorship regimes? You think their emissionis would simply vanish? You would have to destroy them for the CO2 to stop coming... and guess what... within a few years companies 101th through 200th will pick up the slack and we would be back to square one in no time at all. Unless you are willing to go back to pre-industrialization times (millions if not billions would die from famine) you are stuck. There is no simple solution, no magic switch that will save us. We need to do our part as much as possible, we need to make compromises (e.g. nuclear, more expensive renewables, sacrifice other parts of the environment, etc)

Yes, there are many reasons to preserve the status quo, despite the deaths (both now and in the future) and hugely increased cost of doing nothing.

We literally just watched a trust fund baby lose two billion dollars. And somehow it is more moral to allow that than to take that two billion from him and use it to fight climate change, thereby saving billions of dollars, and millions of lives. And instead we are going to ask people to do more recycling, even though that will not actually make any real impact.

But in the end, you are correct insofar as the politicians will do as you say: continue with business as usual.

[XogGyux]

Well, most of the people dealing with the negative impacts of climate change are not even US residents, let alone citizens.

But even if we focus on US voters, please note that Biden and previous Democrat POTUS have dome almost nothing for anthropogenic climate change.

They just reflect the reality of where the US voter stands on this.
Think for a second... why do we need to pay a gym membership, to go to an AC-controlled building so we can break a sweat running on a treadmill in a boring enclosed gray (and stinky) building when you can just run outside in the nearest park? I don't personally go to a gym, not because I am environmentally conscious, but because I am lazy fuck. But the point is, we have accustomed to a certain lifestyle and it is not easy to change, even if it is for the better. I am not fund of politicians, but I think the individual has most of the blame here.

[late]

but I think the individual has most of the blame here.

There is lots of blame to go around, starting with Koch brainwashing the country.

[XogGyux]

There is lots of blame to go around, starting with Koch brainwashing the country.

How does scapegoating help your case?

[wat0n]

It seems like this thread itself is just a rant.

[Pants-of-dog]

They just reflect the reality of where the US voter stands on this.
Think for a second... why do we need to pay a gym membership, to go to an AC-controlled building so we can break a sweat running on a treadmill in a boring enclosed gray (and stinky) building when you can just run outside in the nearest park? I don't personally go to a gym, not because I am environmentally conscious, but because I am lazy fuck. But the point is, we have accustomed to a certain lifestyle and it is not easy to change, even if it is for the better. I am not fund of politicians, but I think the individual has most of the blame here.

65% or more of US residents want the government to do more, including taxing companies, tougher standards for cars and factories, and carbon capture measures.

https://www.pewresearch.org/science/202 ... n-climate/

It seems the public is interested in doing something but politicians do not seem to be providing the necessary policy and laws.

[XogGyux]

65% or more of US residents want the government to do more, including taxing companies, tougher standards for cars and factories, and carbon capture measures.

https://www.pewresearch.org/science/202 ... n-climate/

It seems the public is interested in doing something but politicians do not seem to be providing the necessary policy and laws.

Really? where was this 65% when it comes to voting in elections?

[late]

How does scapegoating help your case?

That's the history.

[XogGyux]

That's the history.

Again... how does that help your case?