[ckaihatsu]

You think peer-reviewed papers in economics journals don't serve the wishes of the rich??

TTP, of course most of them do. However, the ones by MMTers don't do that, and mainstream papers are mostly flawed in that they are based in deductive logic and I would hope that an AI would reject all conclusions based on false assumptions. OTOH, it seems like most people don't care about that problem with MS Econ.

(Please note that the massively-parallel functioning of an AI neural network doesn't lend itself to 'deductive logic', or 'rejecting conclusions', executive-decision-making-style -- it just does *associations*, using weighted links, like the brain mechanically does.)

It looks like the 'summit', of the 'larger mountain', that we've all arrived at, is *plutocracy*.

[Truth To Power]

TTP, of course most of them do. However, the ones by MMTers don't do that,

I disagree. MMT papers almost all pretend that the problem of landowner privilege is far less important than the monetary system, and that the social and economic problems landowner privilege causes can be solved by MMT's proposed increases in federal government spending and job guarantee. That serves the interests of the privileged, landed rich in diverting attention from the far more important land issue, which MMT's proposed reforms will do nothing to solve.

[Skynet]

3 is the best history teacher


I asked:


Did the persians were slave owner or not in contrary to "Sparta" who were brutal slave owners???

Both ancient Persia and Sparta practiced slavery, although the extent and nature of slavery in these two societies were different.

In Persia, slavery was a widespread institution, but it was not as brutal as in other ancient societies such as Sparta. Persian slaves, also known as "massagetae," were typically acquired through conquest or as payment of debts. Slaves were used for a variety of tasks, such as household servants, farm laborers, and soldiers. While slavery was not a harsh and brutal institution in Persia, it was still a form of exploitation and oppression.

Sparta, on the other hand, had a brutal and strict slave system known as Helotage. Helots were enslaved people who lived in the Spartan territory and were considered property of the state. They were forced to work the land, while their Spartan masters lived a life of leisure. Helots were treated harshly and subjected to frequent violence, including being whipped and even executed if they were seen as a threat to the state. The Spartan system of slavery was one of the harshest in ancient Greece.

In conclusion, while both ancient Persia and Sparta had slavery, the nature and extent of slavery in these two societies were different. Persia had a more moderate form of slavery, while Sparta's was brutal and strict.

a

[Skynet]

United Arab Emirates, will use GPT-3 as tutors, to support the teachers:

UAE to soon introduce ChatGPT-powered AI tutors in the classroom
The new systems will complement teachers not replace them.



https://interestingengineering.com/inno ... -ai-tutors

[ckaihatsu]

'deductive logic'

*associations*, using weighted links

---


inductive vs. deductive reasoning

Spoiler: show

[Unthinking Majority]

A comment and Bill's reply on Bill's blog.

andrew
Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 17:38
I was excited to test out the new genius AI on the block. chatGPT with regard to money creation. Unfortunately while you can get it to admit that money is created when currency issuing governments take the decision to spend and that tax payments must be paid in government money and that this money is essentially destroyed when taxes are paid, it still insists that governments need taxes to finance their operations. Oh Dear !

Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 8:56
Dear Andrew (at 2023/01/03 at 5:38 pm)

I have experimented with chatGPT and found that if it initially delivers less than accurate information you can submit a better answer and over time it will adapt to your input and eliminate the falsehoods.

In other words, unlike many humans, mainstream economists included, it learns rather quickly from its mistakes.

Give it a try. I was really happy with the adaptive learning process.

best wishes
bill

How does chatgpt know what you're feeding it is the truth?

[pugsville]

A comment and Bill's reply on Bill's blog.

andrew
Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 17:38
I was excited to test out the new genius AI on the block. chatGPT with regard to money creation. Unfortunately while you can get it to admit that money is created when currency issuing governments take the decision to spend and that tax payments must be paid in government money and that this money is essentially destroyed when taxes are paid, it still insists that governments need taxes to finance their operations. Oh Dear !

Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 8:56
Dear Andrew (at 2023/01/03 at 5:38 pm)


I have experimented with chatGPT and found that if it initially delivers less than accurate information you can submit a better answer and over time it will adapt to your input and eliminate the falsehoods.

In other words, unlike many humans, mainstream economists included, it learns rather quickly from its mistakes.

Give it a try. I was really happy with the adaptive learning process.

best wishes
bill

There is no such thing as Artificial intelligence.

There is no such thing as machine learning.

Machines are not intelligent. Computers do EXACTLY what they are told to do no more no less. There are incapable of intelligence or learning.

Yeah there a interference we we donlt clearly understand what we have told them to do or the process by which the commands are produced through soem pretty complex procedures.

But that really changes nothing.

[ckaihatsu]

governments [...] spend

tax payments must be paid in government money

governments need taxes to finance their operations.

This happens *over and over*, you know, since *time itself* tends to continue.... (*I* call it 'ideologies and operations'.)


Also:


Anatomy of a Platform

Spoiler: show

Ideologies & Operations -- Left Centrifugalism

Spoiler: show

[ckaihatsu]

we donlt clearly understand what we have told them to do

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... p+learning


The Stilwell Brain

[Steve_American]

I disagree. MMT papers almost all pretend that the problem of landowner privilege is far less important than the monetary system, and that the social and economic problems landowner privilege causes can be solved by MMT's proposed increases in federal government spending and job guarantee. That serves the interests of the privileged, landed rich in diverting attention from the far more important land issue, which MMT's proposed reforms will do nothing to solve.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner.

Lurkers, TtP doesn't understand MMT at all.
The only "policy" MMT proposes is the Nationally funded/locally run Job Guarantee Program.
Almost all MMTers are left of center or Progressive, so when they go beyond MMT and make policy proposals they will be to the left. However, a conservative can also look at Gov. policies throught the MMT lens and make conservative proposals. MMTers assert that MMT is neither left or right; it is just a new way to see economic things in a more true and clear way.
It is possible, even likely, that no MMTer agrees with his land ownweship proposals.
That doesn't make MMT wrrong, neither does it make its use useless.
.

[Steve_American]

Steve_American wrote:


andrew wrote:

governments [...] spend


andrew wrote:

tax payments must be paid in government money


andrew wrote:

governments need taxes to finance their operations.

This happens *over and over*, you know, since *time itself* tends to continue.... (*I* call it 'ideologies and operations'.)


Also:


Anatomy of a Platform

Spoiler: show

Ideologies & Operations -- Left Centrifugalism

Spoiler: show

ckaihatsu, It would be helpful if you didn't quote things out of context like that.

The last statemeent andrew made is one that he knew and said is not true.

Covid relief bills proved that fact. Over $5T in the US alone was spent with not a whisper of talk of how it would be paid for. Everone knew that Gov. (except those in the EU or that use a foreign currency) can always spend more money into thier economy. In some cases this can be inflationary. In other cases it isn't inflationary.

[Steve_American]

In the OP, Steve_American wrote:
A comment and Bill's reply on Bill's blog.

andrew
Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 17:38
,,,snip most...

UM, replied, How does chatgpt know what you're feeding it is the truth?

AFAIK, chatgpt is linked to the entire internet. It mut be for it to write HS papers for many students on any topic.

So, when one agues with chatgpt is tests your assertions of fact against what it can find on the internet. It will find assertions on both sides, so it needs to decide which is 'true'. Of course, it can make the wrong decision. In the OP, andrew said that it got some things right as MMTers see things, but didn't get them all right.

I hope this anwers your question.

.

[pugsville]

AFAIK, chatgpt is linked to the entire internet. It mut be for it to write HS papers for many students on any topic.

So, when one agues with chatgpt is tests your assertions of fact against what it can find on the internet. It will find assertions on both sides, so it needs to decide which is 'true'. Of course, it can make the wrong decision. In the OP, andrew said that it got some things right as MMTers see things, but didn't get them all right.

I hope this anwers your question.

.

Truth; isn't concept that chatgpt deals with or understands.

it;s a very sophisticated, very complex random line iof text form the internet generator.


There is no understanding, intelligence, or idea of truth. Or in fact ideas of anything at all. It does not think.

It at no stage makes decisions.

[ckaihatsu]

ckaihatsu, It would be helpful if you didn't quote things out of context like that.

The last statemeent andrew made is one that he knew and said is not true.

Covid relief bills proved that fact. Over $5T in the US alone was spent with not a whisper of talk of how it would be paid for. Everone knew that Gov. (except those in the EU or that use a foreign currency) can always spend more money into thier economy. In some cases this can be inflationary. In other cases it isn't inflationary.

Okay. Just offhand, I recall the figure being more like *$2T*, but your point is taken.


---

AFAIK, chatgpt is linked to the entire internet. It mut be for it to write HS papers for many students on any topic.

So, when one agues with chatgpt is tests your assertions of fact against what it can find on the internet. It will find assertions on both sides, so it needs to decide which is 'true'. Of course, it can make the wrong decision. In the OP, andrew said that it got some things right as MMTers see things, but didn't get them all right.

I hope this anwers your question.

Truth; isn't concept that chatgpt deals with or understands.

it;s a very sophisticated, very complex random line iof text form the internet generator.


There is no understanding, intelligence, or idea of truth. Or in fact ideas of anything at all. It does not think.

It at no stage makes decisions.

*Does* ChatGPT really 'argue' -- ?

Maybe someone could actually *try*, to see if it *would* / could take-up actual policy positions -- and then post it here.

[Steve_American]

Okay. Just offhand, I recall the figure being more like *$2T*, but your point is taken.


*Does* ChatGPT really 'argue' -- ?

Maybe someone could actually *try*, to see if it *would* / could take-up actual policy positions -- and then post it here.

Last week I saw a video by the noted MMTer Stephanie Kelton. In it she said, that the 1st Cares Act was about $2T, then Trump passed another act that was again about $2T, then Biden sent out the $2000 -600 =$1400 checks, which added another about $1T. More than half went to the well off or to corps with no strings attached. Less than half helped the mass of Americans.

BTW on student debt relief, the PPP loans tha went to many business owners were mostly forgiven. Some members of congress hadd their loans of between $100K and over $1M forgiven, but now they say it is unfail to forgive some part of student loan debt. Hypocrits.

.

[ckaihatsu]

Last week I saw a video by the noted MMTer Stephanie Kelton. In it she said, that the 1st Cares Act was about $2T,

Correct. I remember that.

then Trump passed another act that was again about $2T,

Any links for this one?

then Biden sent out the $2000 -600 =$1400 checks, which added another about $1T.

Links?

More than half went to the well off or to corps with no strings attached. Less than half helped the mass of Americans.

BTW on student debt relief, the PPP loans tha went to many business owners were mostly forgiven. Some members of congress hadd their loans of between $100K and over $1M forgiven, but now they say it is unfail to forgive some part of student loan debt. Hypocrits.

Agreed.

Also:

Some economists have found that the PPP did not save as many jobs as purported and aided too many businesses that were not at risk of going under.[2][3] They noted that other programs, such as unemployment insurance, food assistance, and aid to state and local governments, would have been more efficient at strengthening the economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paycheck_ ... on_Program

[Steve_American]

@ckaihatsu, @ckaihatsu,

You asked for links.
The 1st one is dated 1/31/23, but it seems to hqve excluded Biden's spending given below.

https://www.usaspending.gov/disaster/co ... licLaw=all

Overview
This section covers Total Spending
Data through 1/31/2023
An image carousel containing 4 items, with item 1 shown.
This is how much was spent so far in response to COVID-19
$4.6 Trillion

As I said, Stephanie Kelton said it was about $5.5T in total. These 2 total $6.5T.

Like the national debt, every total is different. This is because things like the SS Trust Fund are owed to the Gov. itself, and so some experts don't include them. IMO, they should be included, because someday they will be used to pay retirees, and at that time new bonds will be sold to get (note: as an MMTer I assert that it is unnecessary to sell bonds for the Gov. to "get" money) the money to pay the old bonds. Here I'm assuming they will be treated like all other bonds when they come due.
OTOH, bonds owned by the Fed likely should not be counted, because the Fed has already paid them off by buying them in the name of the US Gov. (if you agree that the Fed. is actually not independient because it pays 97% of its revenue to the US Gov. and just 3% of its revenue to its so-called owners).

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/ne ... -obligated

PUBLISHED 10:28 AM ET MAR. 11, 2022
One year after President Joe Biden signed Democrats’ $1.9 trillion coronavirus spending bill into law, the majority of the funds have gone out to states, schools, federal agencies and grantees across the country to boost things like health care, education, direct payments to families and the pandemic response.

This one is surely in addition to the CARES Act, that is all you seem to remembr.

.

[Truth To Power]

Lurkers, TtP doesn't understand MMT at all.

Wrong. Unlike MMTers, I just also understand some other things.

The only "policy" MMT proposes is the Nationally funded/locally run Job Guarantee Program.

That is more accurately considered a policy that many MMTers support, but is not actually a part of MMT, which is descriptive.

MMTers assert that MMT is neither left or right; it is just a new way to see economic things in a more true and clear way.

It is a way to see modern debt-money-based monetary systems more clearly in some ways, but it gets things wrong in other ways.

It is possible, even likely, that no MMTer agrees with his land ownweship proposals.

Which makes MMT useless, or even harmful.

That doesn't make MMT wrrong, neither does it make its use useless.

As long as MMT is used to paper over the root problem -- privilege, especially landowner privilege -- it will be worse than useless: it will be a distraction and a diversion.

[ckaihatsu]

@ckaihatsu, @ckaihatsu,

Okay, thanks, Steve.

[ckaihatsu]

[TTP's] land ownweship proposals

They amount to the fears of private equity in the face of their financial system's unsupportable overhang -- even *with* central banking -- and overall *fragility*.

Here's from history:

Panic of 1907

In 1907, its funds were being used by then-president Charles T. Barney in a plan to drive up the cost of copper by cornering the market. This gamble came undone due to the dumping of millions of dollars in copper into the market to stop a hostile takeover in an unrelated organization. Barney requested a meeting with J.P. Morgan to discuss financial assistance for the bank, but was rejected. The board of Knickerbocker Trust asked Barney to resign after he admitted involvement in the Morse speculations. That afternoon, the National Bank of Commerce announced it would no longer clear checks for the Knickerbocker, triggering a run of depositors demanding their funds back that forced the Knickerbocker to suspend operations.[5][6] George L. Rives, Henry C. Ide and Ernst Thalmann were named receivers. The failure of the Knickerbocker was the impetus for the Panic of 1907,[7][8] and exacerbated an ongoing decline in the stock market that saw the Dow Jones Industrial Average lose 48% of its value from January 1906 to November 1907. The banking crisis is also seen as the final event that led Congress to form the Federal Reserve System in 1913.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knickerbo ... ic_of_1907

There was neither a central bank nor deposit insurance during this era, and thus banking panics were common. Recessions often led to bank panics and financial crises, which in turn worsened the recession.[citation needed]

The dating of recessions during this period is controversial. Modern economic statistics, such as gross domestic product and unemployment, were not gathered during this period. Victor Zarnowitz evaluated a variety of indices to measure the severity of these recessions. From 1834 to 1929, one measure of recessions is the Cleveland Trust Company index, which measured business activity and, beginning in 1882, an index of trade and industrial activity was available, which can be used to compare recessions.[c]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States#Free_Banking_Era_to_the_Great_Depression_(1836-1929)

---

As long as MMT is used to paper over the root problem -- privilege, especially landowner privilege -- it will be worse than useless: it will be a distraction and a diversion.

TTP, while *nominally* anti-privatization and communalist, really only has *localist* politics, bemoaning that there can't be more than one official owner for any given parcel of land, since other prospective buyers are then shut-out once the sale is final.