[Puffer Fish]

Has any Third World country ever ceased to be a Third World country by any duplicable method?


I'll provide my thoughts and musings on history, touching on this question.

 
There's a couple of countries in (Eastern) Asia that were focused on exports to developed (= white English-speaking) countries, and thereby managed to pull themselves up to higher standards of living.

In the late 80s they were referred to as the "Asian Tigers". First Japan, then Singapore, Hong Kong, and Taiwan (all really tiny countries), then South Korea, and finally the massively huge country of China.

(Japan began industrialising much earlier on than the others, beginning around 1890, was then devastated by World War II, but then began to recover and embarked on a mostly new period of industrialisation beginning around 1950. I'll get back to Japan a little later)

Thailand has tried to use the same model but has had mixed success. There's simply too much poverty in Thailand. Their standard of living is slightly below that of Malaysia, their muslim neighbor to the South, which has a smaller population and is blessed with oil and natural gas reserves, although Thailand has more political and social freedom than Malaysia.

Also, the economy in Thailand is based more on tourism and agricultural/food exports, rather than manufacturing. Much of their economy was also based on real estate, which caused some real estate bubbles in the past, and might not really have benefitted them so much in the long-term.

It's interesting how all these Asian countries improved their standards of living through manufacturing exports.

Here's something Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore all have in common: They were all Chinese ethnicity.

So so far, we only have examples of Northeast Asian culture societies climbing up out of Third World status.

Japan in the 1890s and Communist Russia by the 1960s were able to greatly pull up their standard of living through industrialisation. Though I do not think the standards of living ever went up as high as a First World country, during that time.
Japan made a concerted effort to try to copy everything it believed made Europe successful (mainly the great European powers at the time of Germany, Britain, and also France and the United States to a smaller degree).
The average typical Japanese person before World War II was still noticeably poorer than the average American, and there was a larger percentage of poverty in Japan than in America. In the 1920s and early 30s there were many Japanese emigrating to seek better opportunities elsewhere, such as in the U.S., Chile and Brazil. But I think Japan was getting close to "First World" status at this time. Remember there was a worldwide "Great Recession" at this time, and Japan recovered from it sooner than the U.S. did, only a year after their invasion of Manchuria. (The U.S. took about 3 or 4 years longer to recover)
It would not be until the 1960s that the living standards in Japan started getting close to the U.S., and may have even slightly exceeded the U.S. in the 80s.

In France, the middle class developed between the years of about 1830 to 1890. This resulted in a transformation of French society and is considered the beginning of modernism. Part of the reason for the development of the middle class was that the country at this time was expanding overseas trade, which generated wealth and opportunities, while at the same time the country was beginning to industrialise. One of the important manufactured goods of the time was wool and silk textiles.

France had been one of the wealthier countries in Europe since the 1600s. Even back around the year 1000 France was still wealthier and much more developed than England. (It wouldn't be until the 1756 "Seven Years War" that France began to fall behind England, due to large amounts of debt, which would be one of the key factors leading to the French Revolution 33 years later; though some might argue England had previously secured its position as the dominant world colonial power after its defeat of Spain in the "Eighty Years War" in 1588. )

[Godstud]

You are a good example of the Dunning-Kruger effect at work, @Puffer Fish. Talk about what you know, and not about what you do not.

Thailand has a poverty rate comparable to the USA. Thailand poverty rate for 2021 was 12.20%, a 1% decline from 2020. The official poverty rate in the USA in 2022 was 11.5%, with 37.9 million people in poverty.

Thailand has better 5G and internet coverage than the USA. I have better internet in my small northern town, at a far lower price, than most people have in USA/Canada/UK.

Thais get a lot more bang for their buck in their infrastructure from taxation(which is very low). They pay 11% tax, but only about 4% of the population is regularly taxed. Property taxes are extremely low, to non-existent, once you leave Bangkok.

They have a comparable medical system to the USA that is CHEAP for its people. I've seen a doctor and had an x-ray at a hospital for $10 USD. I am a foreigner. Most Thais pay nothing.

Thailand does not have a lower standard of living than Malaysia. You are trying to compare two countries that are vastly different. Thailand actually has a lower cost of living, better healthcare and nicer climate. It has twice the population of Malaysia, and is a far bigger country.

Only a small percentage of Thailand is tourism(18%). The country mainly exports manufactured goods (86 percent of total shipments) with electronics (14 percent, vehicles (13 percent), machinery and equipment (7.5 percent) and foodstuffs (7.5 percent) being the most important. Agricultural goods, mainly rice and rubber, account for 8 percent of total shipments.

Economy is not based on real estate, as there is no foreign ownership of land.

The Philippines are good to look at, as that is where Thailand was 25 years ago. They're catching up, but have poverty and social problems to contend with. Thailand today is where Philippines will be in 20 years.

[Puffer Fish]

Thailand has a poverty rate comparable to the USA. Thailand poverty rate for 2021 was 12.20%, a 1% decline from 2020. The official poverty rate in the USA in 2022 was 11.5%, with 37.9 million people in poverty.

Despite what the statistics may tell you, the official poverty rates between these two countries are not comparable.
Poverty in Thailand is often more desperate than it is in the U.S. and most of the population in Thailand has a lower economic standard of living than in the U.S.
Overall Thailand is not really an "impoverished" country, but it is a poorer country and living standards are lower. It is what they might call a "middle income" country.

You can read stories about people's feet rotting off because they have to wade in water all day working in shrimp farms. Or many women, even some boys and men, forced into prostitution through economic circumstance.
There are many people's livelihoods that involve pushing food carts in public or climbing trees to pick coconuts. Which might not sound so bad to you but many Thais would not be doing this if they had better opportunities.

In 2014 there was even a small military coup, in response to widespread protests that were largely over the country's economic circumstances.

Thais get a lot more bang for their buck in their infrastructure from taxation(which is very low). They pay 11% tax, but only about 4% of the population is regularly taxed. Property taxes are extremely low, to non-existent, once you leave Bangkok.

They have a comparable medical system to the USA that is CHEAP for its people. I've seen a doctor and had an x-ray at a hospital for $10 USD. I am a foreigner. Most Thais pay nothing.

You are trying to compare two countries that are vastly different. Thailand actually has a lower cost of living, better healthcare and nicer climate. It has twice the population of Malaysia, and is a far bigger country.

I think you are very biased. You might have a different perspective if all of your income had to have come from Thailand.
I can assume you earned your income outside of Thailand, in some other developed country like the U.S., U.K., or Australia.

Sure, somewhere like Thailand is a playground if you had or have a U.S. type income.

You might see some areas with many nice homes and luxury shopping areas, but a large segment of the country's population cannot afford to live or shop there.

Have you taken the train west of Bangkok and seen the shantytowns? Those places look almost as bad as the slums in Mexico.

Economy is not based on real estate, as there is no foreign ownership of land.

I was half referring to the 1997 Financial Crisis and real estate development bubble in the country.

Sathorn Unique Tower, which was never completed and still sits abandoned, soaring into the Bangkok skyline, is one symbol of this.

Only a small percentage of Thailand is tourism(18%).

Main industries of Thailand
automobiles and automotive parts (11%), financial services (9%), electric appliances and components (8%)
tourism, cement, auto manufacturing, heavy and light industries, appliances, computers and parts, furniture, plastics, textiles and garments, agricultural processing, beverages
(source: https://aseanup.com/business-thailand/ )

(for comparison, tourism comprises 21% of Hawaii's economy)

[Godstud]

Poverty in Thailand is often more desperate than it is in the U.S. and most of the population in Thailand has a lower economic standard of living than in the U.S.

False. That poverty is not objective is obvious, and you clearly have no clue about what you are talking about. Nobody starves in Thailand, and every country has homeless people.

Poverty in Thailand is often more desperate than it is in the U.S. and most of the population in Thailand has a lower economic standard of living than in the U.S.

You don't need as much money to get things here, so it's not comparable. That $20 USD shirt you get in USA, costs $1 USD, here. For $1 USD you can get a meal at a restaurant. You can rent a furnished 2 bedroom house/mo for $135 USD. Your internet (1 GB/sec) will be $20 USD/mo. I own a house and farm and I pay $8 USD property tax every year.

Overall Thailand is not really an "impoverished" country, but it is a poorer country and living standards are lower. It is what they might call a "middle income" country.

According to a person like you who knows nothing about it? It's not a poor country by any measure. Every year it gets better, too. Most of the information, people like you dredge up, is over 25 years old.

There are many people's livelihoods that involve pushing food carts in public or climbing trees to pick coconuts. Which might not sound so bad to you but many Thais would not be doing this if they had better opportunities.

You're silly. Are you aware that you can make a good living with a food cart? That you make some comment about picking coconuts, only shows what a racist you are. Contrary to the blogs and stupidity you talk about, coconut venders are extremely rare, and they actually train monkeys to get the coconuts or use long poles with blades on them. This is ONLY in the very touristy areas, as well.

Also, I might note, is that having your own business, even a food cart, is seen as a status symbol. Entrepreneurs are valued, and regarded highly.

In 2014 there was even a small military coup, in response to widespread protests that were largely over the country's economic circumstances.

The government, despite the military coup, upheld the democratic constitution of the nation. Yet more absolute ignorance from you! The protests were NOT widespread, and not massive. it was not about the country's economic circumstances, either. It's not 1997. It's been 26 years, and the country is far different from what it was, when that happened. Thais are happy with their current Democratic government. The military junta is gone.

I think you are very biased. You might have a different perspective if all of your income had to have come from Thailand.

I get all my income from Thailand. I have a successful business. I am not biased. I am well informed. You are not.

Have you taken the train west of Bangkok and seen the shantytowns? Those places look almost as bad as the slums in Mexico.

Until you actually come to Thailand(and I can tell you haven't and are talking shit), you won't see that despite them not being like Western houses, they provide them with the shelter they need for one of the mildest climates in the world. Bangkok is the hottest city in the world for a reason.

They also are well fed, and don't care so much about TV, or some of the things you care about. Most of them likely have better phones than you do.

You might see some areas with many nice homes and luxury shopping areas, but a large segment of the country's population cannot afford to live or shop there.

I live in a town, in what people like you, would call the poorest part of Thailand. You know what is popular here? Coffee shops with expensive coffee, and all Thais can afford to visit them. They have many nice houses, but their priorities are not about having a white picket fence and a big lawn. Their quality of life is HIGH, because their costs for rent, food and clothing, are low.

You can read stories about people's feet rotting off because they have to wade in water all day working in shrimp farms. Or many women, even some boys and men, forced into prostitution through economic circumstance.

Stories.... Is that in USA? I am sure you can find the same crap in USA or even UK. That's not the norm. You have people dying because they can't get medical help in USA. Thais can go to the hospitals for free.

No one is forced into prostitution. They don't view sex in the same way as your typical Westerner, however. There's no social stigma attached to it. It's a different culture, that ethnocentric Americans(guys like you), do not understand, and don't attempt to.

Sathorn Unique Tower, which was never completed and still sits abandoned, soaring into the Bangkok skyline, is one symbol of this.

Private enterprise that failed. It happens all the time, everywhere.

FiDi tower in NY City


My information on Thailand referring to their manufacturing was accurate. Yours does not address that and is very vague. I am sure you did your best to seek out confirmation bias.

Thailand is a developed nation that has done everything on its own, and has always done so. That means it doesn't go at the pace everyone else does, as it adhere to it's own culture and identity. That's why you'll bitch and moan about China buying land in your country, and they don't. They won't allow it.

If you want information about Thailand, then ask. Gleaming what little you can from the internet will not give you a good picture, however. It can't take into account the culture, and mindset. It's not the West and if you are going to judge things on Western criteria(ethnocentrism), then you are going to get a really stupid and uninformed picture about what it is actually like.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

Yes, many developing countries have boosted their economy to levels comparable to developed countries.

[Drlee]

The list is long. Very long. While clearly countries like Estonia and Thailand are in the ascendant, there is no doubt that the US is in rapid decline. We maintain our military power which is no hard thing to do, but socially and economically we are in serious decline.

The thing that is most in decline is the US middle class. It is disappearing rapidly. Down from 61% to 50%. Imagine that. The great US experiment now boasts almost equal numbers of poor and wealthy.

Some say we boomers will tip the tide by dying and leaving our wealth to a smaller population.

Life expectancy is falling in the US and it is not all the Trump administration's botched Covid response. It is not our pathetically broken health care system. Drug overdose and accidental death are up. And worst of all:

Firearms are the leading cause of death in children and teens in the US.

And in the face of this we would conclude that the USA is a first word country? We sure used to be.

A child in Thailand is less likely to be impoverished, is safer from untimely injury or death and has a longer life expectancy than his/her American counterpart. Tell me Puffer Fish.....Which one is the third world country?

[Tainari88]

The list is long. Very long. While clearly countries like Estonia and Thailand are in the ascendant, there is no doubt that the US is in rapid decline. We maintain our military power which is no hard thing to do, but socially and economically we are in serious decline.

The thing that is most in decline is the US middle class. It is disappearing rapidly. Down from 61% to 50%. Imagine that. The great US experiment now boasts almost equal numbers of poor and wealthy.

Some say we boomers will tip the tide by dying and leaving our wealth to a smaller population.

Life expectancy is falling in the US and it is not all the Trump administration's botched Covid response. It is not our pathetically broken health care system. Drug overdose and accidental death are up. And worst of all:

Firearms are the leading cause of death in children and teens in the US.

And in the face of this we would conclude that the USA is a first word country? We sure used to be.

A child in Thailand is less likely to be impoverished, is safer from untimely injury or death and has a longer life expectancy than his/her American counterpart. Tell me Puffer Fish.....Which one is the third world country?

I had a friend of my husband named Jeannette. She moved her from Florida. A Puerto Rican lady. She said she retired recently and has to live off of her $1450 a month SS check. She works part time for another $1200 a month and she got a beautiful two bedroom and one bathroom furnished apartment that included laundry and cleaning service, cable and internet and electricity, water and garbage for about $700 a month. She lives really well now. If she would have stayed in Orlando? Never could make it on SS alone. She plans on working for five years and to buy a condo in Mexico outright. With no mortgage. Something she never thought was possible in the USA. She is in good health and eats right, exercises and has no chronic disease.

Her quality of life has gone way up by moving out of an expensive state to live in.

[Puffer Fish]

Godstud, I will admit I do not know as much specifically about Thailand as these other countries, and that some of my information and perceptions about the country may be 15, even 25 years old.
But I think you are being obtuse, are in denial, and you seem to be very defensive, which leads me to suspect you have some strong personal bias and are taking offense at criticism of the country you have chosen to live in.

You probably are half correct about some of the specific things you brought up, but on the whole, I think I will just have to disagree with you.

Private enterprise that failed. It happens all the time, everywhere.

Maybe you would care to explain why that tower still sits abandoned in the heart of Bangkok, left sitting there for the past 26 years, neither razed nor developed.
We all know such a thing would be unimaginable in cities like Los Angeles, New York City, or Berlin.

[Puffer Fish]

Yes, many developing countries have boosted their economy to levels comparable to developed countries.

The list is long. Very long.

It's my perception or assessment that this is not the case. It's a rather rare or uncommon thing for a nation to be able to pull itself up to First World status. These countries are the exceptional countries out of the countries on the globe.

I noticed that you two made your claim but gave scarce (no) examples.

Even in a large number of these countries that have greatly developed and improved, I still suspect a large segment (5-40%) of their population would choose to relocate to the U.S. or Germany for better opportunities if they were permitted to, indicating that things are not really too wonderful in the countries they are in. (Obviously people don't just get up and leave to a far away nation with a different race, culture, language, and far away from everyone they know, unless the difference in living standards between two countries is large enough)

I also think countries that are recovering from Communism (mainly Russian Soviet) are probably not the fairest examples of improvement. We would probably have to compare their present state to how things were in those countries before World War I.

[Puffer Fish]

While clearly countries like Estonia and Thailand are in the ascendant, there is no doubt that the US is in rapid decline. We maintain our military power which is no hard thing to do, but socially and economically we are in serious decline.

The thing that is most in decline is the US middle class. It is disappearing rapidly. Down from 61% to 50%. Imagine that. The great US experiment now boasts almost equal numbers of poor and wealthy.

I have no disagreement about the U.S. being in decline. I am just saying (or claiming) that where it stands right now is still above most other countries in the world, including Thailand and even China.

Hopefully we can all understand the distinction between what is, and the amount of change over a period of time. Comparing things between two different countries versus comparing things between two time points in one country.

A child in Thailand is less likely to be impoverished, is safer from untimely injury or death and has a longer life expectancy than his/her American counterpart. Tell me Puffer Fish.....Which one is the third world country?

"Poverty" is kind of relative.

For many reasons it is hard to directly compare poverty levels in the U.S. to Thailand. Each is better and worse in different ways.

I can only say I have read many stories of child poverty in Thailand that would be almost unimaginable in the U.S.
Godstud may be correct that there are very different views concerning sexuality between the two cultures but I still do not believe that can account for all of it.

Can you imagine it being "normal" for a so-called "middle class" (albeit lower middle class) family to send their 14 year daughter out to be a sex worker?
(An article with some additional information: Childhood's End In Thailand, Bruce Bower, Science News, September 19, 2005 )
Or, this may have been 25 years ago, but 9 year old boys sent out in the streets with nothing to do and they learn from other boys how they can go out and earn a little extra money by performing certain sexual acts for tourists? These are indicators of poverty and desperation, of the type that is simply almost non-existent in the U.S. (with the possible exception of certain Black neighborhoods, but even there it is not quite so shocking).

I saw a video documentary interviewing a woman prostitute from Bangkok who broke down into tears that she had to do what she did. (The documentary might have been from around 1998 )

[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

What is your standard for achieving First World status?

[Godstud]

But I think you are being obtuse, are in denial, and you seem to be very defensive, which leads me to suspect you have some strong personal bias and are taking offense at criticism of the country you have chosen to live in.

False. I want to correct preconceived notions that you have that are objectively false. I have a business in Thailand. I pay taxes in Thailand. I am aware of the business climate, and what is going on, both in government, and without.

Maybe you would care to explain why that tower still sits abandoned in the heart of Bangkok, left sitting there for the past 26 years, neither razed nor developed.

A private company owns it. Thailand does not have the same rules and regulations as the USA. I showed you a building in New York City that has been sitting unfinished for years, so your claims that it can't happen in another place, is false, and very much imaginable. It can happen anywhere.

Los Angeles
Oceanwide Plaza, which is the only U.S. asset Oceanwide has left, has sat unfinished since 2019. In filings with the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, the firm said it would need more than $1.2 billion to finish construction, in addition to the $1.1 billion it has already spent.

New York - MiDi tower
The leaning tower of Manhattan: 670ft skyscraper is STILL unfinished nearly a decade after $300M construction project began - with one builder dead and developers locked in a fierce legal battle over 8cm tilt

Can you imagine it being "normal" for a so-called "middle class" (albeit lower middle class) family to send their 14 year daughter out to be a sex worker?

That's exceptionally rare(it could happen in USA), and extremely illegal. Sleep with a 14 year old and you are more likely to end up floating face down in the Mekong River. That's only if the police get you. It'll be worse if the parents catch you.

Or, this may have been 25 years ago, but 9 year old boys sent out in the streets with nothing to do and they learn from other boys how they can go out and earn a little extra money by performing certain sexual acts for tourists? These are indicators of poverty and desperation, of the type that is simply almost non-existent in the U.S. (with the possible exception of certain Black neighborhoods, but even there it is not quite so shocking).

Yes. It was 25 years ago and this doesn't happen now because poverty is greatly diminished and it's illegal. You can no more do this in Thailand than in the USA or Canada.

Thailand is not the same country it was even 20 years ago. The town I live in had 2 trucks 15 years ago. Now every family has a car or truck. Thailand is the largest market of pickup trucks in the world, now.

Times change and a poverty rate of over 25%(20 years ago) has been reduced drastically. The government has also changed, albeit slower, as the people from poorer regions like Isaan(where I live), now have the money to get to Bangkok and get good educations. This is a country with the vast population of the country being rural.

So. Do you have any questions? I can answer most questions about Thailand if you wish to learn instead of going by most of the information that seems to be decades out of date.

Thailand is a Constitutional Monarchy. It has a Democracy that is liked by the occupants. It did have a military junta, but that's happened many times before in Thailand, and didn't unduly impact the citizenry in negative waves, due to the monarchy and a good constitution.

Tourism is important to Thailand, but it isn't the be-all end-all. Manufacturing for exports are. Many of the cars, trucks, motorcycles, watches, etc. are manufactured in Thailand. Clothing is also manufactured here, and so is very inexpensive.

Seeing a Thai person without a cellphone is rare. Cellphone coverage is better than in USA. Poverty is NOT a huge problem, as even the poor people don't starve, and a homeless person can walk into any temple(wat) and get shelter/food

Thai healthcare is as good as USA but cheaper. I have had friends get hip replacements, heart bypasses, etc. in Thailand. It's even cheap for a foreigner. I had a friend come to Thailand to get his teeth implants done because he could fly and spend 6 months in Thailand to get the teeth done, for the same price of just having them done in Canada.

Thailand has its faults of course. They have no mental health support, besides some medical stuff, so the people who tend to be poor are mentally ill people. They still feed them, however, and seeing some people begging in Bangkok is the exception.

What is your standard for achieving First World status?

It is probably paying high taxes and having lost most of their freedoms. It used to have to do with Democracy and opposing USSR in the Cold War. It's lost all of its meaning since then.

A child in Thailand is less likely to be impoverished, is safer from untimely injury or death and has a longer life expectancy than his/her American counterpart. Tell me Puffer Fish.....Which one is the third world country?

QFT. Welcomne back, @Drlee. Long time, no see.

[Puffer Fish]

I showed you a building in New York City that has been sitting unfinished for years, so your claims that it can't happen in another place, is false, and very much imaginable. It can happen anywhere.

Los Angeles
Oceanwide Plaza, which is the only U.S. asset Oceanwide has left, has sat unfinished since 2019. In filings with the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, the firm said it would need more than $1.2 billion to finish construction, in addition to the $1.1 billion it has already spent.

New York - MiDi tower
The leaning tower of Manhattan: 670ft skyscraper is STILL unfinished nearly a decade after $300M construction project began - with one builder dead and developers locked in a fierce legal battle over 8cm tilt

I accept that as evidence for your argument.
But those two examples still are not as bad as the Sathorn Unique Tower in Bangkok, which has been abandoned for 26 years. Construction of it was actually begun 33 years ago.

The tower in Manhattan has an engineering problem with it that cannot easily be fixed and now they're locked in a legal battle and can't decide what to do. It's only been sitting there in neglect for 3 years (since late 2020).

Oceanwide Plaza in Los Angeles has only been sitting neglected for 4 years (since 2019).
(and the whole coronavirus pandemic late-2019-2021 might have had more than a little something to do with why these projects were put on hold)

The only abandoned towers I am aware of that have been sitting in Berlin currently have plans to be renovated (though it's possible those plans might be put on hold with Berlin's latest slump in the economy. And that's not counting the ones that have only recently been abandoned this year. But I'll clarify I'm really no expert on what's happening in Berlin and may be wrong)

Seeing a Thai person without a cellphone is rare.

Probably part of the reason is they are less likely to have personal computers than Americans. Only 21% of Thai households have computers (as of 2020).
In the U.S., 92% of households do (as of 2018 ). Even among lower income Americans, only 41-43% of them do not have a computer with internet access.

Thais are probably using their mobile phones as a substitute for a computer. We also see the same phenomena in Africa.

Per capita consumption of electric power in Thailand is 2,726 kWh, compared to 11,695 kWh in the U.S. Of course a small part of that is likely due to the more pleasant climate but part of it probably has to do with living standards. (Bangkok can still get pretty hot and humid in the summer; heating and cooling, residential and commercial, accounts for only 10% of electric consumption in the U.S.)

[Godstud]

As I said, @Puffer Fish, Bangkok is not New York city. They have different rules and regulations. There is more FREEDOM here so if you get in over your head building something, you might end up walking away, or not finishing it. The city won't come after you for that, however.

Personal computers are rarer, but are they actually necessary unless you use them for work or gaming? I see some Thais with laptops, but they are for work. They can use a phone to see Youtube, go on Line, check out FaceBook, etc. They have access to cheap and good phones(My brand new 128 GB Samsung is less than $200 USD), and the plans(if you want them) are dirt cheap, or you pay as you go( I spend about $3 USD/mo). Wifi is everywhere... gas stations, bars, cafes, restaurants, etc. You don't need so spend money once you have a phone.

Yes, they use less electricity. They don't watch TV, really. They don't use electricity for heating homes, and very few use air conditioning. They are used to the heat(even in Bangkok). My electric bill is higher than most because of my PC and 2 AC units.

Most Thais will spend time with friends eating, drinking, and socializing. That doesn't use power beyond a little for the sound unit and lights. Thais love music.

[Puffer Fish]

Godstud, I don't see why we are arguing so much about Thailand. That is not the main point of the this thread.

As I stated in the first post, Thailand is an example of "mixed success".

You're not trying to argue they're in the same tier as the U.K., France, Germany, U.S. or Australia, are you?

If you want to try to argue Thailand is modern and "close to a First World country", I won't argue with that (though I am a little skeptical whether that's entirely true).


It seems both you and me are open to the possibility Thailand has made significant improvements over the last 25 years. But it could just be possible that is just due to recovery from the 1997 Financial Crisis.

Unfortunately I know very little about what the quality of life was like in Thailand in 1910, 1945, or 1960. I have some very old National Geographic magazines (1964-1968 ) with pictures showing what looks like very undeveloped scenes in Thailand, but that could be misleading.

[Godstud]

@Puffer Fish I corrected your glaring errors, and showed you that Thailand isn't a third world country and your false assumptions were that. You brought it up, and I live/work in Thailand.

You're not trying to argue they're in the same tier as the U.K., France, Germany, U.S. or Australia, are you?

Yes, and no. Anything you can get or do in a Western nation, you can do in Thailand. Often it's simpler, easier and cheaper.

So what makes a 1st world country superior? The Western democratic countries don't seem very democratic, these days.

I'd argue that Thailand is not a mixed success. It's an unmitigated success.

[Puffer Fish]

Well, how about this question.
Do you think Thailand is higher or lower in relation to average living standards than the following countries: Argentina, Turkey, Greece, or Spain?
How about poorer states in the U.S. like Kentucky and Alabama?

I get the sense that out of all of those, Thailand might only be slightly better than Turkey, and I'm not even entirely sure about that.  

I have a sense that living standards are probably significantly higher in Thailand than India, even though India's Per Capita GDP is very slightly higher.

I also suspect Thailand might have a better living standard than Vietnam but am really not sure about that since Vietnam's living standards have been rapidly increasing.
Again, Vietnam is focused on export growth, taking over from where China was in 1999-2004. I doubt they will ever catch up with China though. It does not seem they have grown as fast as China did during that time.

[Godstud]

@Puffer Fish I have never been to Argentina, Turkey, Greece, or Spain, so I cannot comment. They all have different cultures and customs, too. Culture plays a big part in it.

Thais don't care about white picket fences, lawns, and having the biggest TV. I think that some of the countries you named probably are similar. It is a fatal mistake to think that just because things are different, that they aren't as good.

How about poorer states in the U.S. like Kentucky and Alabama?

I'm willing to be that Thailand is better than those poorer states.

I have a sense that living standards are probably significantly higher in Thailand than India, even though India's Per Capita GDP is very slightly higher.

Yes, they probably are. I know the poverty rate is significantly lower than India's 25%(Where Thailand was in the last century). Then again, there aren't over a billion people living here. Thailand only has about the 70 million people.

I also suspect Thailand might have a better living standard than Vietnam but am really not sure about that since Vietnam's living standards have been rapidly increasing.

They are comparable. Vietnam's doing very well.

China is an economic behemoth. 1.4 billion people. You can't expect other countries in this region to catch up. That's like expecting the other 28 countries in North America to catch up to the USA.

If you are talking about 'pulling themselves up', I think you will find a great many countries that have done so in the last 100 years.