Will Africa ever lose third world status? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in the nations of Africa.

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By Rei Murasame
#13757823
Wolfman wrote:Again, in economic terms as Social Democracy is a mixed economy with a welfare state, universal healthcare and education, industrial and financial regulations, and generally one or more key industries are controlled by the government. You can call this corporatism if you like

No, that is not the same as corporatism, as it's possible to have all of that and still not be corporatist. For some reason - a reason that I do not know - you seem to have taken on the view that everything bad that social democracy has done, has been social democrats 'doing it wrong', as opposed that actually being what social democracy does.

Wolfman wrote:but this is the ultimate goal of Social Democrats.

What, to give us the bare basics that every country in Europe & Asia already has after going through developmental phase? :eh:

Wolfman wrote:In the case of Social Democracy, Finland is the ideological role.

No it really isn't. Honestly, I would recommend this document as the best summary of what's happened:

http://www.fsw.vu.nl/en/Images/WP_Wolde ... 199579.pdf
By Wolfman
#13757865
No, that is not the same as corporatism, as it's possible to have all of that and still not be corporatist. For some reason - a reason that I do not know - you seem to have taken on the view that everything bad that social democracy has done, has been social democrats 'doing it wrong', as opposed that actually being what social democracy does.


The issue is that there are parties that used to be Social Democrats, and have been moving away from it. What is now called Social Democracy in the UK and a few other places is not Social Democracy. This is a brief but fairly good economic overview. Notice the UK had this, but has been moving away from it. It's a case of someone claiming to be one thing, but really not.
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By Rei Murasame
#13757911
I strongly suspect that you have this very idealised outlook of what social democracy is all about, because you are in North America, and from over there from a distance it must look to you like social democracy is actually some sort of coherent and comprehensive ideology with a real economic plan, a plan that goes beyond muddling along with what already exists in whatever society it happens to crop up in. It isn't.

Notice how in that wiki you linked, there are ten bullet points, four of them which are directly economics-related, three of those four points being extremely vague, and one of them being structurally impossible? There is a reason for that.

Also, look at the bottom where they have the "criticism" section. I've never seen that before, but isn't it interesting how close those criticisms are to the ones that I have made?

Rei Murasame previously wrote:One of the chief criticisms of social democracy is that it doesn't move anything, it simply adapts itself to whatever the prevailing economic wind happens to be at the time, so it seems to move while actually standing firmly in place in its ideological role.
wiki wrote:rather than changing the world, social democracy merely changed itself to accommodate its tactics.


Rei Murasame previously wrote:as far as I understand it 'social democracy' is actually the adaptation and commodification of welfare provision to American Neoliberal market conditions.
wiki wrote:social democratic programs maintain the capitalist system (and therefore retains its fundamental issues, such as cyclical fluctuations and social contradictions)


Isn't that eerie?
__________________________

But all that aside, the reason that I know your previous lists are measuring for the effects of corporatism and not actually the presence or non-presence of social democracy, is because your list measures GDP per capita, which is only going to be spread around as nicely as you've observed in those countries, when corporatist wage-bargaining structures are in place and operating properly. Sometimes that might happen to occur under a social democratic regime, but that doesn't mean that social democracy is causing it.

And that's why I linked to the paper "Corporatism in small North-West European countries 1970-2006: Business as usual, decline, or a new phenomenon?", because without that context it becomes impossible to describe the process that really caused those particular countries to float into the top 10 in your GDP per capita lists back on page one of this topic.
By rik
#13758137
Haha! Really? Then actually you quite close to agreeing with me, just you don't know it yet.

How do you think "Collective Capitalism" was created, rik? How close to corporatism are you planning to tread? Perhaps you want to lean towards corporatism and you just don't know it yet.


You and I are not in agreement whatsoever. Corporatism is essentially what Obama espouses. Corporatism is a system where businesses are nominally in private hands, but are in fact controlled by the government. I believe in free market capitalism, not corporatism.

Corporatism breeds heavy corruption. Government officials act in collusion with their favored interests to design policies that give those interests monopoly power, to the detriment of both competitors and consumers.

Examples,
- ethanol subsidies.
- The health care bill, which leaves care in the hands of private companies, but is controlled by government.
- Another example is carbon-trading. Obama's cap-and-trade legislation provides subsidies and special privileges to large businesses that engage in carbon trading.

Obama is a corporatist. I'm anything but.

My mention of collective capitalism was in the context of Social democracies. Basically social democracies levy heavy taxes on income, and then redistribute it more evenly without regard to individual abilities. What they don't do, is surreptitiously craft legislation to favor one company over another, which is what obtains under corporatism.
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By Rei Murasame
#13758170
rik wrote:You and I are not in agreement whatsoever.

Well, you were the one that was praising Japan and South Korea, two very integrated and corporatist countries! For some unknown reason you tried to credit their positive attributes to free market capitalism.

rik wrote:Corporatism is essentially what Obama espouses.

Oh no he doesn't. Look at his actions over the past however-long-he-has-been-president of your country. The United States is a liberal, pluralist, capitalist country. It has no corporatism going on it it, whatsoever.

If you want, I can even get out the ranking tables and I cam show you that on the corporatism and integration ranking tables, the USA is at the bottom of the list. :eek:
By rik
#13758483
Well, you were the one that was praising Japan and South Korea, two very integrated and corporatist countries! For some unknown reason you tried to credit their positive attributes to free market capitalism.

The discussion was about social democracy, not corporatism. I was praising them as a product of Capitalism, with heavy dose of wealth redistribution policies. You then extrapolated the discussion from social democracy, into corporatism.

I put corporatism somewhere between capitalism and socialism.

Oh no he doesn't. Look at his actions over the past however-long-he-has-been-president of your country. The United States is a liberal, pluralist, capitalist country. It has no corporatism going on it it, whatsoever.


I said Obama, not the USA. So whatever ranking tables you show would not take into account Obama's intentions for America. Rather, it will present official US system of governing.

My beef with corporatism, is its tendency for corruption. Take GM for example. It's owned by the US government, but managed by private entity. Over the last couple of years when GM wasn't doing so well, Obama has given them massive tax breaks. http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/23/news/co ... /index.htm This is the type of corruption I'm referring to. Had GM not had ties with Obama, such tax breaks would likely not occur. I gave you other examples in my last post.

So, while you may not see the US as corporatist, that nevertheless, is what Obama is practicing.
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By Rei Murasame
#13758595
rik wrote:The discussion was about social democracy, not corporatism.

Yes, but that discussion was wrong because Wolfman was attributing what you called the 'wealth redistribution policies' to social democracy, but those polices could never have been enacted without the corporatist bargaining structure being in place.

Let's look at the South Korean example of it, since they've taken the time to lay it out in super-simple summarised form:
Image

Economic and Social Development Commission, Law & Regulations wrote:Image

Article 1 (Purpose)
The purpose of this Act is to seek industrial peace and contribute to the balanced development of the national economy by establishing the Economic and Social Development Commission of labour unions, management and the Government, and stipulating matters necessary for its organization and operation, for the purpose of discussion of labour policies and matters related to them on the basis of the spirit of mutual trust and cooperation among the three parties, as well as providing advice to the President when necessary.

Article 2 (Duties of the Commission)
The three parties (labour-management-government) shall take part in relevant meetings on the basis of mutual trust in a bona fide manner and respect the results of the meetings to the utmost of their abilities.

Article 3 (Establishment of the Commission and Its Functions)
① The Commission shall belong to the President.
② The Commission shall deal with each of the following matters.

Matters pertaining to labour policies on workers' employment stability and conditions as well as industrial, economic and social policies that have a significant impact on such labour policies, <Deleted>
Matters pertaining to the need for improvement of the system, consciousness and practice for the development of labour-management relations, Matters pertaining to how to carry out the decisions made at meetings of the Commission, Matters pertaining to how to provide support for projects designed to promote cooperation among the three parties Other matters for which the President seeks advice.

Article 4 (Composition and Operation of the Plenary Committee)
① The Committee shall consist of one chairperson, one standing committee member, and two members representing labour, management, and the government respectively.
② The Chairman and the Vice-Chairman mentioned in the foregoing 1) shall be appointed by the President.
③ The President shall appoint worker members among representatives of workers' organizations of national level and employer members among employers' organizations of national level, respectively.
④ Public interest members should be learned and experienced in labour, economic and social issues and shall be appointed by the President among those who are recommended by the chairperson among those who survive the exclusion by workers' organizations of national level and employers' organizations of national level of those who are recommended by the chairperson, workers' organizations of national level, and employers' organizations of national level.
⑤The one representing the Government among those mentioned in the foregoing ③shall be Minister of Finance & Economy and Minister of Labour.
⑥ In the event that it is necessary in consulting matters stated in provision 2 article 3 of the Act, the President can appoint the head of related administrative bodies such as the Minister of Commerce, Industry, or Energy, Minister of Planning and Budget as special member in addition to the members according to provision 1 article 4.
⑦ Matters necessary for composition and operation of the Committee and method of consecutive exclusion shall be decided by the Presidential Decree.

Article 5 (Duties of the Chairman etc.)
① The Chairman shall stand as the head of the Commission and control the general business of the Commission.
② The Chairman and the Vice-Chairman mentioned in the foregoing 1) shall be appointed by the President.

Article 6 (Terms for Members)
① The term for the Plenary Committee members shall be two years, which may be extended.
② A member whose term has expired shall continue to perform his/her duty until his/her successor is appointed, if that is the case.

Article 7 (Meeting of the Plenary Committee)
① The Chairman shall convene the plenary session and act as the chairman of the meeting.
② A meeting of the Committee shall be convened if one of the following applies: In case the President demands it, In case a third or more of the total number of the members demands it, and In case the Chairman finds it necessary to convene a meeting.
③ A quorum for holding a meeting shall have a presence of half or more of the total number of the members. A decision shall require consent of two-thirds or more of the members present in a meeting.
④ A decision stated in the foregoing ③ shall require presence of a half or more of those representing labor, management and the Government, respectively.
⑤ <Deleted>

Article 8 (Standing Committee)
① The Commission shall have a Standing Committee assigned for review and coordination of agenda to be submitted to the Plenary Committee as well as dealing with the matters entrusted by the Plenary Committee and providing assistance to the Plenary Committee in its activities.
② The Standing Committee stated in the foregoing 1) shall be comprised of 20(twenty) or less members including the chairman. The Vice-Chairman of the Commission shall concurrently act as the chairman of the Standing Committee.
③ The Standing Committee members shall be comprised of those appointed by the Chairman among working-level officials of labour, management and the Government as well as related specialists supposed to represent public interest. Provided that a standing committee member representing public interest shall be an expert in the field and those who survive consecutive exclusions by workers' organizations of national level and employers' organizations of national level of those who are recommended by the chairperson, workers' organizations of national level, and employers' organizations of national level.
④ The provision of this article with respect to the standing committee shall apply in Article 6, Provision ①, ③, ④ of Article 7.
⑤ Matters necessary for composition and operation of the standing committee and method of consecutive exclusion shall be decided by the Presidential Decree.

Article 9 (Subcommittees)
<Deleted>

Article 10 (Committee by agenda and industry)
① The Commission can set up committees by agenda and industry under the standing committee which can exist for up to one year. Provided that, when necessary, the period of existence can be prolonged once by up to one year.
② The chairperson of the committee by agenda and industry shall be appointed by the Chairperson of the Economic and Social Development Commission.
③ <Deleted>
④ Matters necessary for composition and operation of the committee by agenda and industry shall be decided by the Presidential Decree.

Article 11 (Secretariat)
① The Commission shall have Secretariat assigned to deal with general matters of the Commission.
② The Secretariat shall have the post of Secretary-General who will be held concurrently by the standing committee member of the Economic and Social Development Commission.
③ Matters required for composition and operation of the Secretariat shall be stipulated by the Presidential decree.

Article 12 (Expert Advisers)
① The Commission shall have Expert Advisers for specialized surveys and research concerning its activities.
② Matters such as the number and qualifications for the Expert Advisers shall be stipulated by the Presidential decree.

Article 13 (Cooperation from Related Institutions etc)
① The Commission may take the following steps if so required for its business: Request for presence of a person(s) concerned, a related public official(s) and a related specialist(s) in order to listen to their opinion(s) Request for submittal of data or explanation from a person(s) concerned or a related institution(s)
② Such person(s) concerned, a related public official(s) or a related institution(s) as have been put to the request(s) mentioned in the foregoing 1) shall do their best to comply with it/them.

Article 14 (Survey of Public Opinion)
The Commission may hold a public hearing, seminar or a panel discussion broadcast or conduct/collect a survey of public opinion if so required concerning its business.

Article 15 (Entrusting of Survey or Research)
The Commission may entrust a related institution, organization or specialist with a survey or research if so required concerning its business.

Article 16 (Dispatch of Related Public Official and Staff-member)
The Commission Chairman may have a public official(s) or a staff-member(s) come to work for the Commission either part-time or full-time for some period in consultation with the head of the relevant institution or organization if so required for its business.

Article 17 (Report of Results of Discussion)
① The Commission Chairman shall report major matters of its activities including the results of a meeting of the Plenary Committee to the President.
② The Commission Chairman may inform the related administrative institutions of its decision(s) and urge it to carry out decisions made in the Plenary Committee.

Article 17-2 (Notification of Discussion Results)
In the resolution process according to provision 3 and 4, article 7, in the event that resolution is not possible because of the absence of either all worker members or all employer members, the Plenary Committee can start the deliberation with the attendance of the majority of the registered members and decide to notify to the government the discussion results up to the time with the approval of the majority of the attending members.

Article 18 (Duty of Due Diligence)
① Labour, management and the Government shall do their best to carry out the decisions made by the Plenary Committee and have them reflected in their policy-making with the implementation in due diligence.
② In case the decisions made in the Plenary Committee are delayed or not carried out within a reasonable period of time, the Commission Chairman may request the relevant administrative institution, labour or management organization for explanation or submittal of material explaining the reason for not carrying it out.

Article 19 (Regional Tripartite Committee)
① The head of a local autonomous body may establish a regional tripartite (labour-management-government) committee for enhancement of cooperation among the three parties in the area in his/her jurisdiction.
② The Commission can provide support necessary for establishment and operation of regional tripartite committees.
③ Matters necessary for composition and operation of and support for regional tripartite committees shall be decided by the Presidential Decree.

Additional Rules
① (Effective Date) This Act shall take effect from the day of promulgation.
② (Interim Measures on Establishment of the Commission) The Economic and Social Development Commission existing before the effectuation of this Act under the previous regulations shall be deemed to be the Economic and Social Development Commission established under this Act.
③ (Interim Measures on Term of Members) The members appointed under the existing previous regulations at the time of promulgation shall carry out their duties until new members are appointed under this Act.


Corporatism can be looked at from an institutional perspective and from the integration perspective. Institutionally, corporatism is the presence of institutions that bring together three (or four in Germany's case) social actors which attempt to govern a political economy and shape public policy. The more tightly bound they are together, the more likely it is that they will arrive at consensus on issues and choose a a social policy that satisfies everyone and can be implemented.

From an integration perspective, there are of course outside influences and exogenous variables that can modulate how tightly bound those social actors are together at a particular time, and whether they select polices that really satisfy everyone, and so this can be used to describe the failure-modes that corporatism can go into, as various types of 'disintegration'.

In any event, it's clear that this whole dynamic is completely foreign to the United States, and that no one in the American political class has ever really been interested in this.
By rik
#13758804
Corporatism can be looked at from an institutional perspective and from the integration perspective. Institutionally, corporatism is the presence of institutions that bring together three (or four in Germany's case) social actors which attempt to govern a political economy and shape public policy. The more tightly bound they are together, the more likely it is that they will arrive at consensus on issues and choose a a social policy that satisfies everyone and can be implemented.

You are describing a utopia here, where all sides just want the best for the public.

Corporatism allows too much government influence over business. That is my dilemma with corporatism.

I don't know much about Germany, or Japan, but I'd probably be right if I said they're very disciplined countries. US politics is exceptionally corrupt. Politics in African nations is even more so.

Given the kind of power corporatism bestows on government officials over control of business, I can say with fair accuracy that corporatism is not what America or Africa needs. Decoupling government and business makes more sense.
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By Godstud
#13758861
True, rik. The politics in Africa are a direct result of colonialism, and then the unchecked corporatism, which followed that. The only way this can be reversed/changed is by world governments checking corporations. That, in itself, it a very difficult thing to do.
By rik
#13758928
True, rik. The politics in Africa are a direct result of colonialism, and then the unchecked corporatism, which followed that. The only way this can be reversed/changed is by world governments checking corporations. That, in itself, it a very difficult thing to do.


I think you're mixing corporations with corporatism. They don't have the same meaning.

One of the biggest problems Africa is facing, is western hypocrisy. The West accuses Africa of being corrupt. But it's western nations that aid corrupt Africans in moving stolen loot from Africa to the West. In reality, it's the West that is corrupting Africa.

The west looks the other way, when these African thieves bring in stolen millions and billions of USD for deposit in foreign banks. Swiss banks are key among banks in this regard.
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By Godstud
#13758992
Yes, I was thinking corporations, not corporatism.

The problem is that the first world countries(the West- first world countries, like China, Russia, et al), have trade which is built upon obtaining cheap resources from poor countries. The corporations and elites within these countries ensure that the poorer countries can't get fair prices for their products and trade, so the poorer countries can't develop or improve.

Things like the WTO, in theory, should be a positive force in this, but then the corporations ensure otherwise.

Chances of Africa ever losing "third world" status? Pretty slim.
By rik
#13759057
It appears Africans are returning home afterall.



The economic situation in the West is forcing Africans to look southward.
#13945347
Africa is already doing a lot in taking its destiny in its hands. The recent move to challenge the status-quo at the World Bank by fielding an African, Dr. Ngozi Okonjo Iweala, for the soon-to-be-vacant seat of the President of the World Bank is one of such moves. However, the 'super-powers' (America and Europe) must see need to show leadership in its strong grip on the affairs of the world. The choice of Dr. Kim, the Asian American Health expert sponsored by America over the obviously more qualified African candidate, Dr. Iweala. for that coveted seat, is as retrogressive as it is a double-standard. At this level of decision making there was need to play up merit and play down politics. Let's begin to see more of that happen.

PNPeter
#13946500
The main reason Africa is not developed is human capital issues. Black Africans have a median IQ of 67, for which at least a 20-point deficit can be accounted for by severe childhood malnutrition and parasite depression (Africans are dumb because maggots eat their brain, basically). As it stands they may be able to become as developed as South America or Eastern Europe (no mean feat) with good governance; and while they will never converge with Western Europe I think they will eventually become a developed region by virtue of 1) technology marching on (higher multifactor manufacturing productivity -> more accessible and cheaper products -> better SOL worldwide), 2) elevated unit prices for raw materials, and 3) Flynn effect (which is most likely caused by improving nutrition and childhood health quality).

As for Africans in Europe, do note that only the very best and brightest in Africa can even afford to escape to Europe. Educational attainment in the continent is quite significantly poorer, even in countries that have universal education (chief among them South Africa).
#15000398
@Suntzu, Yeah when you have stupid monarchs who are abusive, they waste all of their labour's wealth. Low IQ leaders tend to produce mismanagement in production and wealth coordination, massive corruption, and useless wars and genocides caused by ignorance.
#15000402
SSDR wrote:Yeah when you have stupid monarchs who are abusive, they waste all of their labour's wealth. Low IQ leaders tend to produce mismanagement in production and wealth coordination, massive corruption, and useless wars and genocides caused by ignorance.

99% of sub-saharan africa is democratic republics. There is only one monarchy south of the sahara.
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