[Someneck]

quote="Someneck"]But the statistic is that college grads have FULL employment in the US and are all paying tax - they will pay more than the value of the loans - very much more.
.quote]

You and many others like you need to learn the lesson of correlation does not equal causation.

You in particular need to explain yourself by setting out your thoughts in plain English and not some opaque pseudo-intellectual statement .

I had many graduated who talked like that and who came for job interviews with me, and I always rejected them because effective communication skills are paramount

[Joe Liberty]

You have never had to deal with Student Loan debt collectors have you?

I work in the industry, although not as a collector. I've heard the horror stories, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I also know that since Obama disallowed guaranteed private loans and directed the Department of Ed to originate them all, delinquency and default rates have skyrocketed.

The best way to fix this IS to remove any market influence from the loans and make high education free paid through taxes. Instead putting the burden on the student, but as part as an collective investment of future generations.

Well you're almost there, there's almost no market influence to be found now.

Of course your "solution" would mean even more idiots borrowing six figures for a degree in library sciences and other such boondoggles. It would not bring down costs at all, in fact it would completley untether supply from demand. To paraphrase: if you think it's expensive now, wait until it's free.

Also, that would not be an "investment", since investments A) are voluntary and B) pay a return that is not a vague warm fuzzy feeling.

Here's another look at the "crisis":
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/07/39 ... rylink=cpy

Kelly D. Edmiston, senior economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City, led the effort, joined by Lara Brooks and Steven Shepelwich.

His conclusion on student loan debt: “It’s not a big issue for most people, but it is a huge issue for a tiny group of people.”

The most relevant figures from his report, the ones that should overshadow all of the other data, are these:

The median individual student loan debt for the first quarter of 2012 was $13,662. The average debt that people owed was $24,218.

Twenty-five percent of borrowers owed less than $5,977 and 25 percent of borrowers owed more than $29,155.

The perspective missing from all the highly publicized stories of people with massive amounts of student loan debt is that less than 3 percent had debt more than $100,000. Only half a percent had debt over $200,000.

What crisis?

[Someneck]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States

[The American Lion]

Of course your "solution" would mean even more idiots borrowing six figures for a degree in library sciences and other such boondoggles. It would not bring down costs at all, in fact it would completley untether supply from demand. To paraphrase: if you think it's expensive now, wait until it's free.

Also, that would not be an "investment", since investments A) are voluntary and B) pay a return that is not a vague warm fuzzy feeling.

You want less people getting a college education? The United States is not a producing nation anymore. We exported most of our production to China. You are not going to find many Americans finding jobs in production factories which don't need a college degree.

Just like universal healthcare has lowered costs and universal education system will lower costs as well.

Also the free to almost free higher education in Europe hasn't bankrupt those nations. In order to have a better society we need a lot of higher educated people because I don't believe my future son is going to be working at a coal mine anytime soon.

[Joe Liberty]

You want less people getting a college education?

That's "fewer", and if that's the way you want to characterize it, then my answer is "yes". I want fewer people borrowing craploads of money for worthless degrees, especially when the taxpayer is on the hook for it.

But that's a very superficial way to look at it. It's not about how many people get a college education; in fact I simply presented some of the things I thought was pricing an education out of the reach of many people, and I firmly believe costs would come down if subsidies were erased from the picture. In fact, looking at it in very simple terms like, 'we need more people in college' is the exact same mindset that caused bad law and bad regulation that encouraged more people to buy homes and thus created a housing bubble. History can teach us much, even recent history, if we just pay attention.

Just like universal healthcare has lowered costs and universal education system will lower costs as well.

I'd love to see one person give me an example of a monopoly lowering costs, and then tell me if a monopoly on health insurance is a good idea, why a monopoly in any other area of life is bad.

In order to have a better society we need a lot of higher educated people because I don't believe my future son is going to be working at a coal mine anytime soon.

Why is your son's education my problem? Start saving. Or I guess I could present you a bill for the costs I incurred raising my kids. There are five of them, and I won't bill you for anything beyond their 26th birthday (if they can stay on my insurance until 26 I guess that means they're "society's" burden until that age, right?).

[Someneck]

I'd love to see one person give me an example of a monopoly lowering costs, and then tell me if a monopoly on health insurance is a good idea, why a monopoly in any other area of life is bad.

The NHS in the UK is a virtual monopoly although there is some private (healthcare)

It costs around 7% of GDP whereas the US is 17% for bad outcomes

The army is a monopoly and costs a lot less than contractors (Mercenaries)

[Rancid]

You want less people getting a college education?

I do, I think we need less college grads and far more trade/tech/vocational school grads. We should provide more financial assistance to the kid that is trying to get an electronics technician degree and certification than some kid at a traditional 4 year school who wants to study international dance.

[Someneck]

I do, I think we need less college grads and far more trade/tech/vocational school grads. We should provide more financial assistance to the kid that is trying to get an electronics technician degree and certification than some kid at a traditional 4 year school who wants to study international dance.

per my income table above, less grads will mean lower overall pay, which will mean less overall tax for military spending

from my book (how to confuse a republican)

[The American Lion]

That's "fewer", and if that's the way you want to characterize it, then my answer is "yes". I want fewer people borrowing craploads of money for worthless degrees, especially when the taxpayer is on the hook for it.

But that's a very superficial way to look at it. It's not about how many people get a college education; in fact I simply presented some of the things I thought was pricing an education out of the reach of many people, and I firmly believe costs would come down if subsidies were erased from the picture. In fact, looking at it in very simple terms like, 'we need more people in college' is the exact same mindset that caused bad law and bad regulation that encouraged more people to buy homes and thus created a housing bubble. History can teach us much, even recent history, if we just pay attention.

I'd love to see one person give me an example of a monopoly lowering costs, and then tell me if a monopoly on health insurance is a good idea, why a monopoly in any other area of life is bad.

Why is your son's education my problem? Start saving. Or I guess I could present you a bill for the costs I incurred raising my kids. There are five of them, and I won't bill you for anything beyond their 26th birthday (if they can stay on my insurance until 26 I guess that means they're "society's" burden until that age, right?).

You speak like the selfish libertarian you are? Why is it your problem? Well. As an society we don't want to live in a world of stupid people. Look at the United States of America. We nearly half of Americans who believe the planet was created in 6 24 hour days by an Canaanite tribal god. Also our math and sciences are draining to Asia and Europe. Why is this? We are draining public money away from education because selfish attitudes.

You claim that people can merely save. How can people save money for their son or daughter if they don't have good finances due that they are in a lower income class? Class plays a key role in education. Do you believe the poor should not get an equal chance of getting a good education? I only make 18,000 dollars a year. There is no way in hell I am going to be able to raise a family or save income for my future child's education. Especially in market conditions where employers are demanding people to earn less even with a college education.

One thing great about the Soviet Education system that it was fully financed by the state and once you graduated you have a job in the filed you studied. As an society we must focus on specific fields of study that as a nation that we need. Remember the Soviet Union education powerhouse was math, engineering, and science.

Remember, the Libertarian goddess Ayn Rand benefited from that collectivized socialist education.

[Rainbow Crow]

Isn't the fact that you can't default on a student loan a reason why the bubble will not burst? I would think that the grantors losing their money is the source of bubble bursting.

Specifically, polisci is the most common pre-law degree. I wasn't polisci but there are more less useful degrees than that which should not receive funding from loans.

The more you grow the middle class the less money they are going to make as a group because demand goes down. Putting everyone through college is not a silver bullet for economic and social problems. A degree that doesn't give you earning power will not increase your power in society.

[Someneck]

There is absolutely no doubt that the German system of intense training in Math/Science gave birth to a host of innovations which resulted in the US moon shots via Wernher von Braun

Also the Soviet system produced physicists and mathematicians who got a satellite into orbit before the US

Even the UK system produced a host of scientific advances including DNA

The US cannot go for an Amish style science policy regarding graduates and Santorum was wrong to say encouraging students is snobbery

The right seems hell bent on sending the country backwards, and any minute now they will propose injecting people with smallpox so it can be like in the good old days

good for doctor's profits !

[Joe Liberty]

You speak like the selfish libertarian you are?

First, I'm not one to go crying to a mod, but I'll thank you not to presume that you know the first thing about me.

Secondly, if you'd like a clarification on the definition of "selfish", I can help: it's selfish to expect other people to pay for your responsibilities. It's not selfish not to expect that.

Your post is nothing but an emotional diatribe and doesn't address anything that I've said. My first post laid out why I believe costs to be so high: address those things and the costs will come down so that college is more affordable. You've gone off on some weird tangent about how I don't want poor people to learn anything, which is preposterous and fabricated out of whole cloth. Yuu make the insane assumption that if you don't force people to pay for your education, you'll choose to remain stupid, and thus without government-funded education we'll be a nation of lazy idiots, a rather bizarre notion considering that the government didn't subsidize college (except for military members) until 1958. Apparently almost 200 years of US history and achievement was somehow accomplished by uneducated Neanderthals.

If simply throwing more money at the problem were the answer we'd have the best-educated people on Earth already. You know that you have to think these problems through, not just feel about them.

[Someneck]

The more you grow the middle class the less money they are going to make as a group because demand goes down. Putting everyone through college is not a silver bullet for economic and social problems. A degree that doesn't give you earning power will not increase your power in society.

Tell it to the Swiss....

ain't no cott'n pickin' stoop labor there

Not many degrees will not increase your earning power

many top execs took history or art etc

Its demonstrating that you can get out of bed, and get to college and LEARN and output it coherently that counts...and that's what ANY college degree counts for a lot in increasing job and earnings prospects



.

[Rainbow Crow]

We all know how well the Soviet system worked out...

I think that in a perfect world education would be free, but it would also have to be free in the form of night school or part-time education if you aren't paying some of the money yourself because society isn't built around people not working or going to school for things that aren't useful enough that someone will pay them for what they've learned.

@Someneck, the Swiss are an unusual case, since they have a small population with a high average IQ and have set themselves up to trade with larger surrounding countries. It is not unusual to see a group like that achieve above-average commercial success, now or throughout history, but their position does not mean that everyone can attain equal prosperity.

[Someneck]

We all know how well the Soviet system worked out...

I think that in a perfect world education would be free, but it would also have to be free in the form of night school or part-time education if you aren't paying some of the money yourself because society isn't built around people not working or going to school for things that aren't useful enough that someone will pay them for what they've learned.

@Someneck, the Swiss are an unusual case, since they have a small population with a high average IQ and have set themselves up to trade with larger surrounding countries. It is not unusual to see a group like that achieve above-average commercial success, now or throughout history, but their position does not mean that everyone can attain equal prosperity.

How did they get a high IQ - is it a racial feature ?

How about Kenyans - half Kenyans ?

You are wrong about the type of degree being so important - many top CEOs have generalist degrees - and earn may times more than the science grads who report to them


.

[Rainbow Crow]

IQ isn't 100% education-based if that is where you are going. The racial trends in IQ are effectively undeniable.

I will admit that Obama is likely smarter than me, I voted for him, but exceptional individuals don't disprove trends.

I am still waiting for you to quit Pofo, go back to school and become the smartest man in the world since it's 100% about education according to your camp. Maybe you can double major in psychology and political science and deal a death-blow to conservatism. Be sure to take some classes on Freud so that you can make better personal attacks.

[Someneck]

IQ isn't 100% education-based if that is where you are going. The racial trends in IQ are effectively undeniable.

I will admit that Obama is likely smarter than me, I voted for him, but exceptional individuals don't disprove trends.

I am still waiting for you to quit Pofo, go back to school and become the smartest man in the world since it's 100% about education according to your camp. Maybe you can double major in psychology and political science and deal a death-blow to conservatism. Be sure to take some classes on Freud so that you can make better personal attacks.

Just because I show people to be wrong sometimes doesn't make that a personal attack. One of your camp said I was making a personal attack because I said I said there was no god - and he is religious. He said I was insulting him (the poster).

What you are doing is a personal attack - albeit a mild one and one I can handle ok. I am posting on topic and it is you who is reaching for the personal stuff - read all my posts above if you don't believe me - and then read yours.

You have to be able to be proven wrong if you come on pofo - other wise you will always feel like lashing out

Anytime you see someone using personal attacks, it is always because they are losing - the right would be far more magnanimous and gentle if they had won




.

[Kman]

One thing great about the Soviet Education system that it was fully financed by the state and once you graduated you have a job in the filed you studied. As an society we must focus on specific fields of study that as a nation that we need. Remember the Soviet Union education powerhouse was math, engineering, and science.

The soviet education system sucked dick, why else do you think they lagged severely behind the west when it came to their ability to develop electronics?

[Someneck]

quote="The American Lion"]One thing great about the Soviet Education system that it was fully financed by the state and once you graduated you have a job in the filed you studied. As an society we must focus on specific fields of study that as a nation that we need. Remember the Soviet Union education powerhouse was math, engineering, and science.
quote]

The soviet education system sucked dick, why else do you think they lagged severely behind the west when it came to their ability to develop electronics?

do you mind - I am having my lunch !

They Russians got into space before the Americans

Sputnik and all that


bleep bleep sputnik 1957


the republicans said the ruski used a huge rubber band to launch it....


Американская фирма Transceptor Technologies приступила к производству компьютеров «Персональный спутник»", of which a better transliteration would be:
"Amerikanskaya firma Transceptor Technologies pristupila k proizvodstvu komp'yuterov Personal'ny sputnik"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI3iwR0vvUw



.

[Kman]

They Russians got into space before the Americans

Sputnik and all that


bleep bleep sputnik 1957
.

By devoting huge amounts of resources to it, it was basically a prestige project for the commies and the commies didnt care how much it harmed the general population to spend so much energy on this project, the americans however were restrained from engaging too much into these types of wasteful loonie toons dick measuring contests.