fuser wrote:Yes, it is meager in grand scheme of things. Not only motor vehicles, take away entire 30% of Red Army and it still wields massive superiority on land against western allies.
Okay, you still don't understand how not having 30% of your logistic train affects an army. I'm done, this is absolutely retarded
Its rich coming from you, whose whole argument started with, they are a "joke". Yup, clearly no bias, no fanboyism at all.
Go scroll up and read the bit where I praised the Red Army for its deep operation theory, the only fanboy here is you.
No my figures are absolutely correct,
Fuck off, I've cited over 5 primary sources and you've brought up nothing.
I am telling you the exact percentage of motor vehicles received through LL that formed the part of Red Army. Absolute numbers means jackshit without taking in account in what proportion they were part of the army and as I said it reached at its peak in may 1945 with just over 30%. Beside a third of these trucks were send in crates and were assembled in Soviet factories, a fact you conveniently ignored while still ignoring the pre war stocks as I mentioned two posts ago and making the same error as all fanboys do by just counting the wartime production and completely dismissing pre war stocks.
Please tell me in what universe "absolute numbers mean jack shit".
Ah yes, soviets had to build Ikea trucks, so are you passing those off as Soviet manufacturing now? Hilarious
The only one being disingenuous is you, I told you why counting only wartime production is erroneous and you are yet to counter that with any argument and no repeating yourself is not an argument.
It isn't, you are literally ignoring the fact that the majority of the Red Army was
DESTROYED and had to be REBUILT
In may 45, Red Army had a fleet of 680,000 trucks, 32% LL, 58% Soviet produced and rest captured.
Primary source now, because Americans supplied 400,000~ upwards trucks, and most definitely exceeded Soviet production according to all the sources I've provided.
Enjoy 4 primary sources that contradict what you are saying, all of which cite Russian archives.
It just means that you still don't understand my argument and no they are not contradicting me at all and as per Milokyan quote, oh please..I can give you quotes from famous people in west heaping mountain of praise to Red Army and vice-versa, but its not really a good fact based argument. The prime example being the British general staff who planned the operation and thought it to be infeasible/impossible but I guess they hadn't heard of fanboys who will dismiss the same opposition as a joke, am i right?
Yep, a Soviet apparatchik apparently knows less about the USSR at war than you, incredible, will your gymnastics not stop. I've linked a fucking US army war college professor who has made ardent defenses of the Red Army and brought their strategic acumen to light, but you clearly are incapable of actually clicking anything. Do that and you might learn something.
Mikoyan doesn't "heap praise", he assess exactly what the impact of Lend Lease was. Another primary source. Your "knowledge" has shit on him buddy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastas_MikoyanThis guy is apparently an Allied plant and a spy. Incredible.
Yes, LL was important but yours or Zamuel's point that without LL in 1945, Red Army is toast, they are a joke is hilariously ludicrous.
Can you try reading. My point is that the Red Army would not even be in Berlin in 1945 if it wasn't for fucking lend-lease. They'd be in Poland in a filthy meatgrinder which would have seen millions more Russians dead.
Once again its rich coming from you, who is denying the importance of LL? No one. Who is exaggerating its importance to ridiculous level? Its you, so start following your advice, yes cold war is gone and you get nothing from exaggerating LL importance.
Uhh, you are? Literally every fucking Soviet hack supporter since the 2nd world war has tried to downplay the importance of lend-lease, with the declassification of archives its apparent the degree of importance the Soviet leaders privately placed upon lend-lease, and given the quantity of material sent over we can analyze the critical impact it had on shortening the war and saving millions of Russian lives.
To put it absolutely clearly, the total LL was somewhere around 7% of Soviet GNP, yes it was important but stop exaggerating it and giving it undeserved importance.
Uhh, more than that when you consider what the Americans donated, not limited to just productive goods but raw material, the amount of effort it saved the Soviet economy and ability it gave them to retool for armaments production is conveniently ignored. "undeserved" importance is millions less Russian dead and a war shortened by years. Yeah, so minor, lmao.
W
What a poor attempt at a comeback. So why Sturmoviks? Why not just say peasants with bamboo sticks after western air force magically destroys everything. Look you were completely off the tracks when you tried bringing in Sturmoviks when comparing air superiority, accept it rather than coming with flimsy excuses.
Have you seen what happened to Dresden and the entirety of Japan? Go ahead and look at the might of Western air power, Gulf War 1 and 2 should serve as another reminder.
How about your reading comprehension advances a bit further than that of a juvenile, and see where I brought up Sturmoviks I referred to CAS (CLOSE AIR SUPPORT). I can't help that you can't read english properly, but that's not my problem okay buddy guy?
Because sturmoviks are all that would be left - the VVS's doctrinal difference emphasized CAS, it did not emphasis multirole capabilities, it's fighters were niche and specialized and it absolutely neglected altitude, nightfighting and air control
Do you know what a multirole aircraft is? It's a P-47, or a P-51. Do you know what isn't a multirole aircraft? A IL-2M.
Now if you are unable to see why a VVS comprised of Ground attack CAS aircraft will be sending Sturmoviks against P-51s because they literally do not have the quality or quantity of fighter craft to fight the USAF, then you are deluded beyond measure.
Yup, for air superiority VVS would deploy as I said previously "mostly LA7 and planes like that and not Sturmoviks"
Yeah, and they have them in limited quantity, with inferior aviation fuel, poorly trained pilots that would be mowed down. These same "wunderwaffen" struggled to achieve parity with dilapidated Kraut planes. The majority of the VVS still is not equipped with these planes by 45, and has early model Yaks, LaGGs, and early model LA-5s.
By the time the VVS has managed to produced LA-7s and 9s in decent numbers, the Allies have already moved onto to Gloster Meteors and F80 shooting stars, and MiG-15 production can kiss a good bye in this timeline when B-17s are raping Soviet industrial capability
:lol: Oh, indeed thousands and thousands of aircrafts will just go to Moscow and return back while singing and dancing through thousands of kms of hostile space and they will not once be touched, yup no fanbiyism here at all.
Allies did it to Germany and Japan repeatedly, tell me, how are teh Soviets going to stop this? The Luftwaffe and IJN were markedly much superior to the VVS. They have no night fighters. They have no capable fighters performing at high operational ceilings in an interceptor role. The Germans had over a 1000 262 Schalbes in production and they couldn't stop it. What is the VVS going to do? Also what fucking air defense? Can you point me to this magical WW-2 Shilka that exists that apparently is going to shoot B-17s down from thousands of metres away?
a) Its not numerically superior, put some effort in reading counter arguments ffs. b) yup ceiling is not everything, read carefully, I didn't said that its not important but that its not everything.
Yes it is, I don't count a shitty I-16 poliakarpov or a PO-2 as combat aircraft. If you think altitude isn't important when it comes to aerial combat I don't know what to say. I shouldn't even be discussing this with you.
Yes, same FW190 that were being shot down by Yak9 and La7s with lesser ceiling but this time by some sorcery western allies planes will simply become invincible. And yes German fighters with lesser ceilings were also shotting down Western allies aircrafts in west ergo ceiling is not everything.
Uhh, ceiling IS everything when you have bomber fleets flying above your capital cities and you can't touch them because your aircraft choke up at high altitudes....If your planes can't climb what are you going to do? Seriously...
Good bye to all Soviet industrial cities and oilfields.
Yes, because there will be no changes (no matter how minor) just because you say so. VVS can absolutely not direct her fighter force to contest for air superiority but will just keep sending Sturmoviks to something like P51s, right?
How is the VVS going to manage a doctrinal and production line change in the middle of a war in time to see effective changes on the battlefield? Yes, literally all they can do and did will be to send CAS to die. Like they did against Germans, repeatedly, throughout the war. It did not learn, unlike the tank armies and commanders, and it was in effect a completely wasteful organization
E
This argument is as good as my counterargument
Glad you admit your arguments have no basis
IOf course it will at minimum. Marching 1000 bombers to a thousand kms of hostile territory against an enemy numerically superior and in possession of machines that can hurt you from air as well as ground is nothing but fantasy, the only way it can be achieved is through attrition (as Industrial might of USSR is far inferior) and it will indeed take time.
What magic soviet plane is going to even intercept a B17 formation, let alone fight a P-51 at high operational ceilings.
Oh they will. I was making the point that how automatically and readily you guys are giving allies a defensive postures in order to get some favorable result regardless of all these plans and op asking them to go in offensive.
Oh no the allies aren't playing "fair" and not attacking, boo hoo. Dude, this is war, not some retarded computer game. Allied divisions marching into a Soviet army giving them a defensive and manoeuvring advantage is smart in which universe? Unless they salt the entirety of Eastern Europe in isotopes it's not realistic.
Finally of all the talk of airpower, the war would had most probably ended like the joke I posted on page 1 with two Soviet tankist sipping tea in Paris and one of them saying, "By the way does anyone remembers, who won the air war?"
Western Europe is not Eastern European plains and fields. The Red Army cannot mass troops for attacks because of the nuclear danger. Good luck finding any sort of force concentration when a nasty little B-17 pack blows a radioactive chunk along an axis of advance.
This is irrelevant, it was purely a military plan which did accounted for American forces.
Yeah, without consulting Americans
You are once again thinking singularly, there were plethora of reasons for fall of British empire, ww2 was one of them not the sole reason.
Bullshit, Brits aren't going to leave their most productive asset without good reason. Nazis and Imperial Japanese did more for Asian independence movements from colonial empires than given credit for. Too bad it doesn't fit in with your slavish anti-Asian Russophilic love masquerading as Soviet "brotherhood".