Parental rights and vaccines - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14871690
I was just having a brain wave.

I think we’ve hashed out the vaccine subject on PoFo more than once. Personally, I am neither pro or anti vaccine. As a parent I vaccinate my children, but respect the wishes of other parents who don’t want to. I also find the persecution of parents who don’t wish to vaccinate their kids a bit scary. But that’s me.

Having said all that, I think there should be a change in vaccine promotion, particularly in rich countries, or first world countries as we like to categorise them.

Vaccines shouldn’t be free. Make parents pay to have their children vaccinated and then see how quick the uptake is.

What do all say about that? Am I being too harsh lol?
#14871696
Who's going to pay the cost of hosptalisation? The taxpayer or the parent or the parents of the kid who gives your kid the disease?

Vaccines bring 7 diseases under control

Two hundred years after the discovery of vaccine by the English physician Edward Jenner, immunization can be credited with saving approximately 9 million lives a year worldwide. A further 16 million deaths a year could be prevented if effective vaccines were deployed against all potentially vaccine-preventable diseases.

So far only one disease, smallpox, has been eradicated by vaccines, saving approximately 5 million lives annually.

https://www.unicef.org/pon96/hevaccin.htm
#14871698
Stormy, we’ve gone over that stuff before. We know the stats. I’m talking about charging parents in first world nations for the ‘privilege’ of having such easy access to vaccinations.
They say there are no free lunches right? Why should vaccines be free in the first world? Benevolence? No. For the sake of herd immunity? Mm, I’m still not convinced.
#14871719
From the standpoint of public health and safety, basic medical care, community wellbeing, the idea that vaccines shouldn't be free is one of the dumbest things I've heard recently. What possible argument do you actually have for that?
#14871723
From a standpoint of public health and safety, basic medical care and community well being, Americans should ban guns :hmm:

From a standpoint of public health and safety, basic medical care and community well being, Europe should ban immigration..

There’s arguments and contradictions galore if you look hard enough.
#14871724
And people should ban crime and ban being mean to each other. But back to the actual topic, what is your reasoning for saying you think vaccines ought to not be free? Considering the consequences would result in decreased health, even more ignorance about vaccines (conspiracies about them, the idea vaccines are inherently dangerous/toxic, etc due to more people having less access to vaccines), and more outbreaks of diseases once rare in the first world, you don't seem to have thought about what you said.
#14871726
you don't seem to have thought about what you said.


Maybe. But that’s what this place is for ;)

Considering the consequences would result in decreased health,


Would it? How severe would the consequences be and how quickly would it escalate? Would the change kill as many people in one year as guns do? Or is the risk of reducing access to vaccination in order to re-energise the apathetic and incredulous actually worth it in the long run?

even more ignorance about vaccines (conspiracies about them, the idea vaccines are inherently dangerous/toxic, etc due to more people having less access to vaccines)


Conspiracies about vaccines already exist, things can only get better. People usually have more respect and value for something they’ve had to pay for.

and more outbreaks of diseases once rare in the first world,


That’s why I asked how long before things could get outta hand. Gotta be cruel to be kind sometimes.
#14871728
I like parental rights in Thailand, regarding vaccines. Your kid gets vaccinated at school, and if they do not get vaccinated, they cannot attend school.

I do not believe in the right to be an ignorant dipshit, and dismiss medical science because you read something from David Avacado Wolfe(a person whom I think should be up on charges of reckless endangerment). If you don't vaccinate your child, it should be considered child abuse, and dealt with accordingly.
#14871730
In a world where international travel is prevalent, I wonder what would have happened if we charged people for the smallpox vaccine?

BTW, people do pay for their vaccine - through taxes.

Vaccines should be available to the widest audience to prevent pandemics. If you put a cost on any vaccine, you eliminate its potency and as such its effectiveness. It also becomes yet another class privilege thing. Those who can afford to those who cannot. I am a big supporter of free healthcare and proud of the UK NHS for this reason. Despite its flaws, the benefits of such a system outweights private healthcare considerably.

Nonetheless, I am also a believer of parent privilege. No parent should be forced to vaccine their child if they choose not to. Personally, I would always vaccine my child because the risks of side effects are slimmer than the risk associated with the virus. But that is my choice, and another parent might think differently. But as long as they know the risk they are taking, they should be able to take that risk. And obviously when the child is an adult they can reverse such decision.

So in summary, if a vaccine is free and available to everyone, anyone can choose to use it or not. To charge would limit that choice due to class and affordability.
#14871735
BTW, people do pay for their vaccine - through taxes.


Paying for something indirectly and not seeing an itemised cost - like utility usage - doesn’t convey its worth.

Vaccines should be available to the widest audience to prevent pandemics.


That’s the theory, yes. Most haven’t seen the apparent debilitating effects and carnage some of the alleged eradicated diseases have on a population. I’m choosing my words quite deliberately in order to portray the mindset of doubt that comes from not having witnessed smallpox, polio etc.

If you put a cost on any vaccine, you eliminate its potency and as such its effectiveness.


There are some vaccines that must be paid for privately and are not covered by government schemes.
Also, I’m not convinced making vaccines cost reflective wouldn’t have the effect of more willing participation. That’s why I started this thread. The aim is to evoke personal responsibility...heaven forbid.

It also becomes yet another class privilege thing. Those who can afford to those who cannot.


That’s life anyway.
Obviously there would be a hardship scheme lol there always is. The thing is, it’s not really those at the lower end of the income scale rejecting vaccines. It’s the wealthy.

So in summary, if a vaccine is free and available to everyone, anyone can choose to use it or not.


Unfortunately, we’ve ventured quite far from this ideal. Someone like Godstud views not vaccinating a child as abuse. Governments are coercing parents into vaccinating their children and it’s flat out wrong. The legal ramifications for governments forcing vaccines on individuals who are not their wards might come back to bite them.

The hysteria around mandatory vaccination has me thinking we’re a hairs breath from an outbreak of the plague. When a cluster of kids get measles it makes the front page of the daily rag ffs.

WTF has happened?
#14871736
ness31 wrote:That’s the theory, yes. Most haven’t seen the apparent debilitating effects and carnage some of the alleged eradicated diseases have on a population. I’m choosing my words quite deliberately in order to portray the mindset of doubt that comes from not having witnessed smallpox, polio etc.


Do you want to read about the debilitating effects and carnage a disease can have to a community that has not been vaccinated against a serious virus and the benefits of widespread vaccination of the same disease?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_African_Ebola_virus_epidemic

BTW Smallpox is the only virus that has been eradicated by man to the general public. Polio is still out there, but uncommon in the west due to... wait for it... vaccination.
#14871738
Holy shit, stop preaching to the choir :lol:

It’s like everyone has totally missed the point of this thread. Although I shouldn’t be surprised. Objectivity goes out the window when it comes to the vaccination topic.

What a peculiar time we live in.
#14871741
ness31 wrote:Holy shit, stop preaching to the choir :lol:


So you have been defending the right for free vaccination and the benefit of its widespread use? :lol:

It’s like everyone has totally missed the point of this thread. Although I shouldn’t be surprised. Objectivity goes out the window when it comes to the vaccination topic.


And what point is that? Have you read what you have written?
#14871743
Godstud got the right answer, if people refuse to vaccinate their kids then they should have no right to attend school. Do people have the right to kill their own kids? Maybe. Do they have the right to kill other people's kids? Nope.
#14871744
So you have been defending the right for free vaccination and the benefit of its widespread use? :lol:


I have stated my position from the outset.

And what point is that?


That vaccines are being taken for granted in the first world due to accessibility and subsidisation.

Have you read what you have written?


More than once and it’s both legible and comprehensible 8)
#14871747
ness31 wrote:
That vaccines are being taken for granted in the first world due to accessibility and subsidisation.



And why shouldn't they? Who wants to catch Polio, Mumps, Rebella, Tetanus etc? Vaccines are not antibiotics. The more they are used, the more healthy society as a whole is. I have shown you the implications of a widespread epidemic. So do you think the West would be absent of such just because you have not witnessed one yet here? Your point makes no sense what-so-ever.
#14871751
Vaccination should be required for every man woman and child that doesn't have a medically necessary reason not too. It is absolutely vital that we do this for public health, the lower vaccination rates that have been occurring are a low key health crises just waiting to become a devastating pandemic. What happens when a deadly disease goes through enough people that it mutates and the vaccination is no longer effective?

People who don't vaccinate their kids are worse than stupid, they are a danger to the populace.

It should be more than free, it must also be compulsory.

We need to also start enforcing more rigorous flu virus vaccination rates (and improve the vaccine itself).
#14871752
ness31 wrote:I think you’re trolling if you can’t understand why something being taken taken for granted could be a bad thing :?:


I think you are running out of any form of logic arguments if you have to resort to saying someone is trolling to counteract their point.

But most don't fully appreciate how fortunate they are to have a free supply of vaccination. You are testimony of that. Is that a bad thing? The jury is out for that.
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