[Sivad]

Unfortunately, we’ve ventured quite far from this ideal. Someone like Godstud views not vaccinating a child as abuse.

Good thing there are plenty of anti-vaxxer cranks to counterbalance that view. I haven't really looked into it but I'll bet dollars to donuts the science is nowhere near as "settled" as someone like Godstud believes it is. It's probably a lot more complicated than the vague simplistic notions most people have about it. I don't know much about vaccines but based on my experience with similar controversies it's safe to assume vaccines aren't as safe and effective as officialdom claims.

Governments are coercing parents into vaccinating their children and it’s flat out wrong. The legal ramifications for governments forcing vaccines on individuals who are not their wards might come back to bite them.

Yeah, it's probably a bad idea to give the state that much power in this system of corporate politics. I don't really want big pharma lobbyists, revolving door regulators, corrupt politicians, and corporate executives having the final say over what gets injected into our children.

The hysteria around mandatory vaccination has me thinking we’re a hairs breath from an outbreak of the plague. When a cluster of kids get measles it makes the front page of the daily rag ffs.

WTF has happened?

The media hypes it to keep folks compliant. Fear tactics are an effective means of crystallizing public opinion.

[Godstud]

Paying for something indirectly and not seeing an itemised cost - like utility usage - doesn’t convey its worth.

People with any fucking common sense and intelligence, see the worth of vaccinations without getting an itemized bill. That's a nonsense argument, dude.

That vaccines are being taken for granted in the first world due to accessibility and subsidisation.

No. They are being attacked by pseudoscience and idiots who talk about holistic medicine and other such bullshit. It's the newest fad in the USA.... Ignorance portrayed as being a skeptic.

[ness31]

People with any fucking common sense and intelligence, see the worth of vaccinations without getting an itemized bill. That's a nonsense argument, dude.

With all due respect Godstud, that is your opinion.

No. They are being attacked by pseudoscience and idiots who talk about holistic medicine and other such bullshit. It's the newest fad in the USA.... Ignorance portrayed as being a skeptic.

It’s not terribly hard to research the various components of a vaccination, something a lot of parents do. It might be a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing, but I wouldn’t say it’s the pseudoscience that’s creating all the doubt..

[Prosthetic Conscience]

The thing is, it’s not really those at the lower end of the income scale rejecting vaccines. It’s the wealthy.

What's your evidence for this? You seem to be denying reality:

The uptake of free vaccines for children in the United States varied significantly depending on the relative income of different ethnic and racial groups, according to research by academics from City University London and National University of Ireland, Galway.

The study, which is published in the February issue of the journal Health Affairs, found that the introduction of the US Government-funded Vaccines for Children (VFC) intervention significantly improved the number of black and Hispanic children vaccinated relative to white children.

It also found that when it came to vaccinations among black families the income-related disparity between poor and rich families increased with vaccination rates rising more for high income families, while for Hispanics the discrepancy between the two decreased.

While the impact of the VFC programme has long been known due to the reduction of financial barriers, this is the first study to show how income can affect uptake across ethnic and racial groups.

In the United States alone, it is estimated that childhood vaccinations will prevent an estimated 322 million bouts of illness and 732,000 deaths over the course of the lifetimes of children born between 1994 and 2013, who benefit from the Vaccines for Children (VFC) program.

Specifically, the VFC program has improved access for children who are uninsured, whose insurance fails to cover vaccinations, who have Medicaid, or who are American Indian or Alaskan Native.

Speaking about the study, Dr Brendan Walsh, Research Fellow in the School of Health Sciences at City University London, said:

“We found that while racial and ethnic disparities in vaccinations were large at the beginning of the VFC program, vaccination rates across ethnicities have narrowed considerably, which is to be welcomed.

“Prior to the vaccine program, children from poorer, often non-white families had lower vaccination rates and higher rates of vaccine-preventable illnesses than those who were white, more well-off, or both. We also found that the reductions in disparities over the operation of the VFC program did not occur evenly over time, across vaccines, or among different groups.”

Analysing data from the National Immunization Survey between 1995–2013 which included 342,062 children aged 19–35 months, the team found that at the beginning of the vaccine program, high-income white children were more likely to be vaccinated relative to their black and Hispanic peers. However, the latest period’s vaccination rates among high-income children were similar, regardless of race. The highest uptake of MMR and polio vaccinations was seen among high income black children in 2011–13.

Among white children, differences in vaccine uptake rates have decreased overtime between high- and low-income children, halving for MMR and polio although remaining similar for Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis (DTaP). Among black children, vaccination rates among high-income families increased at a much greater rate than that observed for low-income families. The largest increase in overall vaccination rates over time was observed among low-income Hispanic children.

Dr Walsh said: “We saw that low-income Hispanics increased uptake of virtually all vaccines to a greater extent, and in a more sustained manner over the duration of the vaccines program, than was the case among the other low-income groups.

https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/feb/up ... says-study

(figures here - high income rates are always higher in an ethnicity than low income ones: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKCN0W52AM )
So, we have an actual study that shows that, before a general program of free vaccination, the poor were worse vaccinated, but that it helped to substantially even things up. Case closed, I'd say; free vaccinations are a Good Thing. Despite your wish for people to experience a few deaths so that they really appreciate what a good thing it is, and to make it another item that the poor have to juggle in their limited budget.

I wouldn’t say it’s the pseudoscience that’s creating all the doubt.

No, a little bit of the doubt comes from pseudo-economists who think people should feel some pain so that they're properly grateful when it stops.

[Rancid]

I like parental rights in Thailand, regarding vaccines. Your kid gets vaccinated at school, and if they do not get vaccinated, they cannot attend school.

I do not believe in the right to be an ignorant dipshit, and dismiss medical science because you read something from David Avacado Wolfe(a person whom I think should be up on charges of reckless endangerment). If you don't vaccinate your child, it should be considered child abuse, and dealt with accordingly.

Most school systems in the US are the same way. You need a certain set of vaccinations to be allowed to attend. However, school systems also allow for medical and religious waivers. Many parents lie about having a religious objection because it's never questioned. In fact, I've seen this encouraged on some of the parenting facebook groups I see my wife on. Shame on those parents.

Yes, vaccines should be required. We've already seen outbreaks of diseases in the US that haven't been seen for decades precisely because dumbass parents don't get their kids vaccinated.


I don't care, if you don't get your kids vaccinated YOU ARE A DUMBASS and you are endangering other children. YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE

[ness31]

@Prosthetic Conscience

I did say wealthy, not nouveau riche.

An excellent study all the same. It is indeed, case closed.

[Sivad]

I don't care, if you don't get your kids vaccinated YOU ARE A DUMBASS and you are endangering other children. YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE

If you don't want your children endangered by fear and distrust then clean up your society. YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES.

[Rancid]

If you don't want your children endangered by fear and distrust then clean up your society. YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES.

FUCKING ASSHOLES!!!! ASSHOLES!!!

Seriously though, so herd protection only works if 97% of the population is vaccinated. We need to reserve the 3% for people who are allergic to vaccines and have other medical complications. It should not be for people that just don't want their kids vaccinated.

[Vanasalus]

The notion of parents being sole decision makers about well-being of their children is quite odd imho.

Children are not slaves.

Surely, parents are primary defenders of their children's well being. That does not necessarily mean they should be the sole defenders. The rest of the society has a stake in every child's well being as well.

Therefore, when the scientific fact is manifest as in the case of vaccination issue, parents should not have any choice. The children must be vaccinated regardless of their parents beliefs, whims or paranoia.

I even will go one more step.

The same is true for the vegan parents forcing vegan diet to their children.

It is a scientific fact that we have evolved to be omnivorous species; i.e. we need to eat animal products as well as plants for the well being of our metabolism. Children born into vegan families should not suffer the consequences of their parents' bad choices.

[Sivad]

FUCKING ASSHOLES!! ASSHOLES!!!

Seriously though, so herd protection only works if 97% of the population is vaccinated. We need to reserve the 3% for people who are allergic to vaccines and have other medical complications. It should not be for people that just don't want their kids vaccinated.

The fear and distrust that gives rise to the anti-vax movement is completely understandable in the context of this culture, this society, this system. I can't blame people for not trusting vaccines when the only guarantee of their safety and effectiveness comes from a thoroughly compromised system. I'd say anyone who doesn't have doubts and misgivings is a dumbass. If people are really that concerned they should focus on solving the underlying problem(revolving doors, regulatory capture, perverse incentives) rather than just blaming the victims.

[Rancid]

The victims here are the children and society at large, no one is blaming them. Just moronic parents.

You're argument is kind of pointless. It's like saying "The only way to solve a small problem is to solve all the big problems." There is some truth to that, but you can certainly solve small problems too.

[Sivad]

The victims here are the children and society at large, no one is blaming them. Just moronic parents.

Why are the parents moronic? They might be jumping to conclusions about the specific dangers of vaccines but their general distrust is still well founded.

[mikema63]

General distrust towards scientific research and medical experts is hardly well founded. But then you think the deep state is a massive conspiracy coming to get you so I'm not surprised you suspect somethings up with those scary white lab coat types.

Tell me, is FEMA up to something in your opinion?

[Victoribus Spolia]

General distrust towards scientific research and medical experts is hardly well founded. But then you think the deep state is a massive conspiracy coming to get you so I'm not surprised you suspect somethings up with those scary white lab coat types.

I find it ironic that leftists, who are typically the first to criticize crony capitalism, are completely fine with the current arrangement in vaccine litigation. Parents should not be coerced to vaccinate if they have no legitimate recourse to sue the manufacturer in lieu of damages. this present system, where it is illegal to directly sue the manufacturers of vaccines for damages, does give Parents legitimate reason to distrust vaccine companies that lobby for their product to become mandatory and have the government protecting them from injury suits. Its the same load of bullshit as the Monsanto Protection Act and other such garbage.

[Decky]

The notion of parents being sole decision makers about well-being of their children is quite odd imho.

Children are not slaves.

Surely, parents are primary defenders of their children's well being. That does not necessarily mean they should be the sole defenders. The rest of the society has a stake in every child's well being as well.

Therefore, when the scientific fact is manifest as in the case of vaccination issue, parents should not have any choice. The children must be vaccinated regardless of their parents beliefs, whims or paranoia.

I even will go one more step.

The same is true for the vegan parents forcing vegan diet to their children.

It is a scientific fact that we have evolved to be omnivorous species; i.e. we need to eat animal products as well as plants for the well being of our metabolism. Children born into vegan families should not suffer the consequences of their parents' bad choices.

Excellent post. People who do not eat meat are a plague on humanity, it is an evil middle class fad and it needs to be brutally suppressed without mercy.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Excellent post. People who do not eat meat are a plague on humanity, it is an evil middle class fad and it needs to be brutally suppressed without mercy.

Indeed, there was recently a Child Protection case in my area over this exact thing.

[Pants-of-dog]

Parents do not have rights. They have responsibilities.

Children have rights. Parents have the duty of exercising those rights on behalf of the children.

Children have the right to be healthy and therefore parents have the responsibility of keeping their kids as healthy as possible.

So I have no problem with vaccines.

The herd immunity argument is a good reason for requiring vaccinations to enter public schools.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Parents do not have rights. They have responsibilities.

Can you prove this claim?

[Pants-of-dog]

Can you prove this claim?

Probably not.

But this is how a good parent operates.

[Diligent]

Parents that don't vaccinate endanger not only their own children, but other people's children as well. They're selfish, pseudo-science consuming assholes.