It is Northern Macedonia after all? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14923916
Somehow, this is bigger news than those two clowns in Singapore. 8)

What would Greek Parliament say?

Independent wrote:Skopje government agrees to change the country's name after decades-long dispute with Greece

Greece has promised to lift its veto on Skopje joining the EU and Nato under the agreement

The government of Skopje has struck an agreement with Greece to change the country’s name, bringing an end to a long-running dispute between the two nations.

Greece has long objected to the use of the name Macedonia because it was shared by the ancient Greek kingdom ruled by Alexander of Macedon, and is also used by an adjacent Greek region.


As a result of Greece’s objections FYROM was only admitted to the UN under the provisional name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia after it gained its independence in 1991 from the break-up of Yugoslavia.


Successive Greek governments have threatened to block F.Y.R Macedonia’s entry to the European Union and Nato under its original constitutional name. Macedonia is a candidate state for EU membership.

Under the deal the country’s name would be changed to the Republic of Northern Macedonia, to reflect the existence of the Greek region of Macedonia on the other side of the border and the cultural claim Greeks see over it. The name would be used both internally by the government and externally when conducting foreign affairs.

The accord was finalised during a phone call between Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and his F.Y.R. Macedonian counterpart Zoran Zaev on Tuesday, and in return for the name change Greece would lift its vetoes on the country joining the EU and Nato.

Both countries’ parliaments need to ratify the deal, and Skopia is expected to hold a referendum on the issue. Nationalists in both countries are opposed to compromise and could yet derail the accord. The agreement is set to be formally signed on Saturday at Lake Prespa, which straddles the country’s border, and that of neighbouring Albania.

There is no way back.

Zoran Zaev, prime minister of Skopia
“The name change will be implemented not only in the country's international relations but also domestically,” Mr Tsipras said in a televised press conference, while Mr Zaev, speaking separately, told his countrymen: “There is no way back.” The PM called on the opposition to back the name change and said it would guarantee access to the EU and Nato.


In Greece, the right wing Independent Greeks party, which is in Mr Tsipras's governing coalition partner, has said it would oppose the agreement in a parliamentary vote – meaning the left wing prime minister will need to seek support from political opponents.

Negotiations, which have been on and off for decades, have intensified in recent months under the oversight of EU, US, and German diplomats.

Ancient Macedonia was the cradle of warrior king Alexander’s empire, but under the Romans the province of Macedonia was expanded to include territory spanning Macedonia, as well as Bulgaria and Albania.

Some Greeks have accused Macedonians, who speak a Slavic language, of appropriating aspects of Greek culture. An eight-storey high statue resembling Alexander in the Macedonian capital of Skopje caused a fuss in 2011. Authorities in Skopia insist that the statue is of a “warrior on a horse” rather than the ancient Greek hero.

As a goodwill gesture preceding the deal, in February of this year the government renamed Skopje's airport, which was previously known as Skopje Alexander the Great Airport, to Skopje International Airport.

In a joint statement, EU foreign affairs chief Federica Mogherini and EU enlargement commissioner Johannes Hahn said: “We wholeheartedly congratulate Prime Ministers Alexis Tsipras and Zoran Zaev for their determination and leadership in reaching this historic agreement between their countries, which contributes to the transformation of the entire region of south-east Europe.

“This achievement belongs to the leaders of the two countries and their teams, but first and foremost it belongs to all the citizens of both countries, and of Europe as a whole.”

They added that they expected the European Council to endorse the European Commission’s recommendation to open accession negotiations with the EU candidate state. The European Council will next meet later this month.

Independent
#14923919
Independent_Srpska wrote:Somehow, this is bigger news than those two clowns in Singapore. 8)

What would Greek Parliament say?


The Greek Parliament has a very wide majority to approve this deal with the former PASOK and Potami parties who have openly endorsed the agreement. The centre-right ND party has not endorsed it completely however this deal is their own position to the t so they will probably endorse it too.

This deal aside from changing the name of the country to "Northern Macedonia" it also adds these disclaimers to their nationality and language. "Macedonian [language/nationality] unrelated to ancient Macedonian [language/ethnic-identity]". Skopje will take all necessary steps to remove historical revisionism from their history and textbooks.

The deal also requires that the government in Skopje has to pass these constitutional amendments before the Greek parliament votes on it. Mr Zaev does not have a majority to pass these amendments but he hopes that the referendum will convince the opposition to support them.
#14923922
The arrogance of imposing on a small neighboring country how it should be called just beggars belief. I will henceforth refer to the republic as "Greater Macedonia" just to increase the butt-hurt.
#14923928
Atlantis wrote:The arrogance of imposing on a small neighboring country how it should be called just beggars belief. I will henceforth refer to the republic as "Greater Macedonia" just to increase the butt-hurt.


Said the guy who wants to impose on a small country whether she will hire a cleaner as an employee or as a gig-worker. :lol:
Get a grip mate.

Skopje is the only Balkan country that refused to participate in the inter-Balkan historical record dialogue in which we all agree to remove nationalism, irredentism and revisionism from our textbooks, up till now. This is a victory for the voices of reason, this country is now abandoning all its ultra-nationalist designs that have been hard-coded in its narrative since its inception.
#14924020
You are right @Albert, in the end, the nationalist crazies will always shoot themselves in the foot. So we could just sit back and watch how they dig their own graves, if it wasn't so disruptive to others.

If you have new text books in Greece now, I hope you'll go back to school @noemon, you are obviously in dire need. As to hiring your cleaner, I have no opinion whatsoever, I do my own cleaning, thank you very much.
#14924083
This is blatant interference in the internal affairs of another country. Since it is coupled with admission to the EU, it also puts the lie to the EU respecting any autonomy of it’s members.
#14924088
One Degree wrote:This is blatant interference in the internal affairs of another country. Since it is coupled with admission to the EU, it also puts the lie to the EU respecting any autonomy of it’s members.


The EU has no bone with FYR Macedonia.

Greece also vetoes FYR Macedonia's Nato membership. Thus you would have to apply your argument to Nato.

In fact, Nato and Trump's imposition of extraterritorial sanctions make havoc of any idea of sovereignty. The EU on the other hand, enhances sovereignty.

Here's an idea for settling the Macedonia name issue.

https://i.redd.it/dyp6nbusxq311.png

Instead of 2, we get 4 countries just by renaming. It's a bit like cell division. :lol:
#14924093
Atlantis wrote:The EU has no bone with Macedonia.

Greece also vetoes FYR Macedonia's Nato membership. Thus you would have to apply your argument to Nato.

In fact, Nato and Trump's imposition of extraterritorial sanctions make havoc of any idea of sovereignty. The EU on the other hand, enhances sovereignty.

Here's an idea for settling the Macedonia name issue.

https://i.redd.it/dyp6nbusxq311.png

Instead of 2, we get 4 countries just by renaming. It's a bit like cell division. :lol:


I have no problem with my criticism being applied to NATO or any other alliance. My criticisms of the EU is no different from my criticisms of a centralized US. I don’t see the EU criticizing Greece.
#14924116
One Degree wrote:This is blatant interference in the internal affairs of another country. Since it is coupled with admission to the EU, it also puts the lie to the EU respecting any autonomy of it’s members.


Right from the beginning this has been a blatant interference in the internal affairs of Greece indeed:

U.S. Secretary of State Edward Stettinius to U.S. Missions
(Washington, Dec.26, 1944)

The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers
The following is for your information and general guidance, but not for any positive
action at this time.
The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda
rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an “autonomous Macedonia”,
emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other
sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected
state.
This Government considers talk of “Macedonian nation”, “Macedonia Fatherland”, or
“Macedonian national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no
ethnic or political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for
aggressive intentions against Greece.

The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian
issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by
Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a
“Macedonian state.” Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation
can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any
Government or Group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or
aggressive acts of “Macedonian forces” against Greece. The Department would
appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.
Stettinius

MFA


This is from back when American foreign policy still made sense and was a positive force in the world.

The fact that Greece has been forced into a corner to recognise this frankestein thing that has been created with the expressed intent to fragment Greece without getting anything in return should tell you how much influence the Germans have in Greece who are the only ones who push for this deal and are also the prime instigators towards the fragmentation and destruction of Yugoslavia. The only reason the Germans are pushing for this deal is because they want to put Skopje into the EU and then turn around and pretend that the EU is "growing".



Atlantis wrote:Here's an idea for settling the Macedonia name issue.

https://i.redd.it/dyp6nbusxq311.png


:lol: :roll: This is the current reality/deal. Just goes to show the extent of your knowledge, here you sound like a yank who has no idea on whether Luxemburg is in Europe or not. That embarrassing moment when your vitriol precedes rational thought.
#14924124
@noemon
I believe Greece can lay claim to interference in their internal affairs more than most and by the US.
I can even see why Greece would want to discuss it.
The fact they are no more guilty than anyone else does not excuse it.
#14924130
One Degree wrote:@noemon
I believe Greece can lay claim to interference in their internal affairs more than most and by the US.
I can even see why Greece would want to discuss it.
The fact they are no more guilty than anyone else does not excuse it.


Excuse what? So if Turkey decides to rename itself to Greece tomorrow should Greece be forced to recognise her just so One Degree does not claim that we are interfering in her internal affairs by refusing to do so? :eh: That is what Yugoslavia did in 1945, she renamed her province which was called Vardarska into Macedonia, then invaded into Macedonia in Greece with the expressed intent of conquering and taking away real Macedonia from Greece and glueing it with the province of Vardarska in Yugoslavia. She failed yet some people are still seeing ghosts and wish that she had succeeded for one reason or another but generally it is anti-Greek hatred that motivates them.

The fact that Greece has recognised the Vardarka province into Northern Macedonia when that area had never been part of any Macedonian iteration for literally nothing in return but just in the name of good neighbourly relations and yet people are still trying to blame Greece just goes to show the extent of anti-Greek hatred that certain people in here harbour.
#14924137
noemon wrote:Excuse what? So if Turkey decides to rename itself to Greece tomorrow should Greece be forced to recognise her just so One Degree does not claim that we are interfering in her internal affairs by refusing to do so? :eh: That is what Yugoslavia did in 1945, she renamed her province which was called Vardarska into Macedonia, then invaded into Macedonia in Greece with the expressed intent of conquering and taking away real Macedonia from Greece and glueing it with the province of Vardarska in Yugoslavia. She failed yet some people are still seeing ghosts and wish that she had succeeded for one reason or another but generally it is anti-Greek hatred that motivates them.


Indiana has two ‘Greenwoods’. I don’t see a big issue. People would have no problem distinguishing between two Greeces. :)
Actually, I think the solution was a good one. The threats that brought it about, not so good.
#14924145
One Degree wrote:I don’t see the EU criticizing Greece.


Because we respect Greece's sovereignty :lol:

I have no problem with my criticism being applied to NATO or any other alliance.


I will believe you once you oppose US imperialism and actively work towards the dismemberment of the USA. Failing that, you are just cheap talk and/or a closet imperialist.

FYR Macedonia erases ‘irredentist’ claims as Commission tables report

EURACTIV.com Apr 17, 2013 (updated: Apr 18, 2013)

In the wake of a Commission report on Macedonia that underlines the country's "good" relations with its neighbours, the Foreign Ministry removed information from its website that was seen as irredentist by Bulgaria and Greece.

Enlargement Commissioner Štefan Füle tabled yesterday (16 April) a much-awaited report on FYR Macedonia, commissioned by EU ministers last December to assess the state of relations of the candidate country with its neighbours, Greece and Bulgaria in particular.

The report underscores the on-going implementation of reforms and says the country is largely back on track, after the political crisis of January-February.

“Relations with neighbours remained good and steps have been taken on the bilateral relations with Bulgaria and Greece. Formal talks on the 'name issue' under the UN auspices took on new momentum during the reporting period. The UN Secretary-General's Special Representative tabled another proposal last week in talks in New York with the two negotiators and hope that this can lead to agreement,” the Commission statement says.

However, diplomats told EURACTIV that the assessment by Füle’s office were way too optimistic. Bulgaria has held four rounds of talks with FYR Macedonia in an effort to agree on series of measures for improving bilaterial relations. According to information obtained by the Bulgarian national radio (BNR), Bulgaria is not satisfied with the results.

Bulgarian news media also reported at length about the Macedonian Foreign Ministry having removed a document containing “estimates” on the number of “FYR Macedonians” living in Bulgaria and Greece from its website. The information removed said 750,000 Macedonians live in Bulgaria and 700,000 in Greece.

These figures are seen both in Sofia and in Athens as grounds for future territorial claims. In Bulgaria, the latest census in 2011 showed that 1,654 Bulgarian nationals identified themselves as FYR Macedonians. No ethnic Macedonians were counted in Greece's census.

According to the Bulgarian daily Trud, Macedonia removed the data just before the publication of the Commission report.

The modified document can be found on the Macedonian language version of the website, in the section ‘Diaspora’, then down to “??? ???”, and clickable on „?? ?? ???, ??? ? ????j?”.

Phantom copy

However, a phantom version of the initial version of the document still exists on the ministry’s website, EURACTIV has found. The document can be found here.

Diplomatic sources told EURACTIV that Sofia would not give the go-ahead for Skopje to begin accession negotiaitions until the country ensures that it would not apply Article 49 of its Constitution.

The article reads that “the Republic cares for the status and rights of those persons belonging to the Macedonian people in neighbouring countries.” Bulgaria and Greece see this text as irredentist, EURACTIV was told.

FYR Macedonia ‘not sure’ that the document exists

Vasilie Andonoski, responsible for public relations in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Macedonia, said he was “not sure” about the existence of a document on the Ministry’s website, specifying the number of Bulgarians and Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria. He promised to check and provide a more precise reply but did not call back at the agreed time.

In an interview with Bulgarian National Radio, FYR Macedonian Foreign Minister Nikola Poposki said he had no knowledge about such a document and could not comment further. “Such estimates [about the number of Macedonians abroad] cannot be an exact science”, he said.

The minister also said that Bulgaria insisted to sign a new bilateral treaty, while his country’s position was “better no treaty, than one that creates problems”.

We have no territorial claims against any country, this is written in our constitution,” Poposki also said.

Greece considers that Skopje is misappropriating large chunks of its ancient history. Similarly, Bulgaria considers that Macedonia is cherry-picking heroes and glorious episodes from its mediaeval history and the 19th- and early-20th century struggle against Ottoman rule.

Recently, Skopje angered Athens by erecting a giant statue of a ‘warrior on horseback’ resembling Alexander the Great in the centre of Skopje. Both nations claim Alexander as a native son.

Similarly, a FYR Macedonia-sponsored exhibition of mediaeval manuscripts in Brussels recently infuriated Bulgaria. The manuscripts mention Bulgaria and the Bulgarian language, and never Macedonia, which became an independent nation in 1991.

FYR Macedonia has also invested heavily in badmouthing Bulgaria, the most striking example being the film “Third halftime” that depicts wartime Bulgarians as fascists, despite the Bulgarian government's decision to refuse Nazi orders to deport the 48,000 Jews in the country to concentration camps.


@One Degree you see, it has nothing to do with interfering in sovereignty. FYR Macedonia is far from qualifying for EU membership, and the Greek threat of a veto is purely rhetorical. By the time FYR Macedonia fulfills all membership criteria, bilateral disputes between countries will have been largely settled due to the prospect of EU membership.

Thus, while the US violates everybody's sovereignty and spreads endless terror and wars, the EU contributes towards dispute settlement to achieve peaceful coexistence.

You as a US citizen have no idea what conflicts driven by nationalism do. The very idea of sovereignty is totally alien to the US which violates the sovereignty of virtually every country on this planet.

@noemon, I do know that Luxembourg is a region in Belgium and that Belgians have no problem with the fact that their neighboring country is also called Luxembourg. That Luxembourg should invade Belgium is just as likely as that FYR Macedonia should invade Greece. Ultra-nationalists are a pain in the arse. There are so many real problems in this world that you don't have to invent fictitious problems.
#14924147
Rugoz wrote:I idea that FYR Macedonia would use its name as a pretense to annex Greek territory is laughable. Does it even have a military? :lol:
The level or retarded nationalism on display here....jeez


That is not an idea, just history that has already occurred in 1946. The fact that it was a failure does not mean that Greece owes them something. How do you figure that Greece should recognise the raison d'être of an invasion that has already occurred against her? The level of retardation in general here is quite unique indeed.

Atlantis wrote:That Luxembourg should invade Belgium is just as likely as that FYR Macedonia should invade Greece. Ultra-nationalists are a pain in the arse. There are so many real problems in this world that you don't have to invent fictitious problems.


I can see that the fact that your proposed solution is the very solution you are calling "ultra-nationalist fiction" does not deter you at all. Your hatred blinds you to actual reality. German hatred towards Greece is totally unnecessary you should find someone else to hate.

Atlantis wrote:Because we respect Greece's sovereignty

Image

Repeat after me Atlantis: You are not the EU, you are just a German nationalist. Repeat for 1000 times before you embarrass yourself further please.
#14924172
@noemon, if I were a German ultra-nationalist, I would be trying hard to destroy the EU and would join the good folks of Pofo to denigrate the EU by every means possible. Yet among the thousands of comments I posted to the forum you won't find a single post defending German nationalism, or any other form of nationalism, and there is no other member who actually defends the EU.

That just goes to show what kind of mindless hatred you are spreading.

The Balkan is a troubled place. Your bombastic ultra-nationalism is a good demonstration of that fact. Your name dispute is totally absurd to anybody outside the Balkans. Just like Belgians have no problem with Luxembourg, most people in this world will look on in bewilderment at the crazy hatred that you people are so desperate to cultivate.

I will let you stew in your own hatred because nobody of any sense would want anything to do with that.
#14924178
Atlantis wrote:@noemon, if I were a German ultra-nationalist, I would be trying hard to destroy the EU and would join the good folks of Pofo to denigrate the EU by every means possible. Yet among the thousands of comments I posted to the forum you won't find a single post defending German nationalism, or any other form of nationalism, and there is no other member who actually defends the EU.

That just goes to show what kind of mindless hatred you are spreading.

The Balkan is a troubled place. Your bombastic ultra-nationalism is a good demonstration of that fact. Your name dispute is totally absurd to anybody outside the Balkans. Just like Belgians have no problem with Luxembourg, most people in this world will look on in bewilderment at the crazy hatred that you people are so desperate to cultivate.

I will let you stew in your own hatred because nobody of any sense would want anything to do with that.


I am not spreading any hatred whatsoever, you are the one badmouthing Greece for coming to an agreement with another country. You are the one who is confusing yourself(Germany) with the EU itself making all these stupid freudian slips as if you represent the EU in opposition to Greece/Greeks :knife: . Your German nationalism is so extreme and so ridiculously transfered into the EU that you consider yourself the only one who can speak on the EU's name even in relation to other EU members!!! The Balkans are not troubled at all, you are just a racist, since racism against Blacks and Arabs has gone out of fashion, racism against Greeks and Balkanites still flies. Yugoslavia was the least nationalist place in the world and the most advanced Soviet-style economy yet you(Germans) destroyed it because you did not want any other potential competition in the continent. You have lost 2 World Wars in the Balkans and you still have sour grapes. I am not trying to cultivate any hatred here, you are. You cultivated hatred in Croatia, Slovenia and Albania, financed terrorists, shipped weapons, you name it, yet you have the audacity to blame Greece for giving recognition to this country without getting anything any return. Your ridiculous hatred for Greece and especially Greeks like myself who talk back is clinical in your case. You just can't fathom the possibility. You said that "your solution would be a great solution" without realising that this "solution" is the one that has taken place already. :lol:

Now you don't know what to say but simply blabber.

The fact that you think you can speak for other people in the world along with speaking in the EU's name is just golden.
#14924181
noemon wrote:The Balkans are not troubled at all, you are just a racist, since racism against Blacks and Arabs has gone out of fashion, racism against Greeks and Balkanites still flies. Yugoslavia was the least nationalist place in the world yet you(Germans) destroyed it because you did not want any other potential competition in the continent. You have lost 2 World Wars in the Balkans and you still have sour grapes. I am not trying to cultivate any hatred here, you are. You cultivated hatred in Croatia, Slovenia and Albania, financed terrorists, shipped weapons, you name it, yet you have the audacity to blame Greece for giving recognition to this country without getting anything any return.


Savage Bro. Savage.

As someone who is a good bit Slavic, this gives me the giggles all over.

I think there is also a hyper-secularist and multi-culturalist arrogance that seeks to belittle the "less-enlightened" peoples of eastern Europe and Greece which is common among many who have thrown their lot in with Brussels.

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