[B0ycey]

Why do Bulgarians have the right to self-determine as Macedonians but Greeks do not? If history belonged in the past we would not be studying it but we would all opt for collective amnesia. You know there should be a limit of non-sense.

As Greek Macedonians want to be known as Macedonians, I will address them as such. And so does everyone else I suspect.

As for History, I never said we shouldn't learn it. Just it should remain in the past. Do you think France should be able to rename Germany because it unsuccessfully invaded it in 1939?

Shared? Letting them have it, does not constitute sharing but them monopolising it. You are confused yet again and at the end of the day Greece and Greeks have no obligation to recognise this country that has already attempted an invasion. We can just sit on it forever and prevent them from joining any organisation that we are parts of. They invent a name, rebaptize themselves, invade Greek Macedonia, they fail, but we should let them have it because we are more "aggrieved"? What kind of logic is this is truly beyond me. A thief getting arrested for trying to steal your house is also an aggrieved party but we do not share our house with him just because he is aggrieved from his failed robbery.

So what's the issue then? If you are happy to let them have the name, let them have it. But your language is similar to how an Israeli recognises Palestine. Your solutions are similar also.

The Skopjan president huffing and puffing was already a given, that is the normal process that the agreement has to go through. It will be put into a referendum in Skopje.

I hope you are right, but I don't even see it passing parliament actually. But if indeed this can be resolved by adding 'Northern' to the title then it will be a great day for the Balkans and Greece - along with the legitimisation of self determination a referendum would generate of course.

[noemon]

As Greek Macedonians want to be known as Macedonians, I will address them as such. And so does everyone else I suspect.

Rugoz clearly disagrees with you since he addressed them as Northern Greeks instead of Macedonians and then went on to claim that Macedonia is not even in Greece. And it is not just Rugoz, there are plenty more people. Can you also produce a sentence in which you refer to both peoples? "The Macedonians had an argument with the Macedonians who disagreed with the Macedonians because the Macedonians were being irrational."

As for History, I never said we shouldn't learn it. Just it should remain in the past. Do you think France should be able to rename Germany because it unsuccessfully invaded it in 1939?

They did not use the name and their newly found "nationality" as the pretext for the invasion mate. Like the people of FYROM did.

So what's the issue then? If you are happy to let them have the name, let them have it. But your language is similar to how an Israeli recognises Palestine. Your solutions are similar also.

Palestine officially predates Israel, dude. And Macedonia in Greece officially predates FYROM. We are not trying to erase a pre-existing situation that was already there when we came about nor is Greece carpet-bombing or attacking these people, they are trying to appropriate a region and a people who were already there. Greece is merely telling them that they should not appropriate her name, cultural heritage and commercial symbols because she has been using them long before they came about. If this was a commercial dispute, you would be arguing that a new company should not call itself Coca-Cola in an attempt to steal the intellectual property of Coca-Cola and you would be standing by her side like a good liberal boy. But in this you are suggesting that Coca-Cola should accommodate the other company and attempt to share her name and IP with her because....something about aggrieved..something...? You are even suggesting that Coca-Cola should be the one to rename herself because...?

I hope you are right, but I don't even see it passing parliament actually. But if indeed this can be resolved by adding 'Northern' to the title then it will be a great day for the Balkans and Greece - along with the legitimisation of self determination a referendum would generate of course.

It is not just about the Northern who will help people produce normal sentences unlike the above, but a whole bunch of other things that have been agreed, including the commercial products, the history, the symbols and of course the disclaimer that Northern Macedonian(unrelated to ancient Macedonian) so that they can no longer sustain their irredentist narrative.

[B0ycey]

There are "weird" things in human relations... for instance, the big chunk of planet had a say in "making Jerusalem a capital" process .. Such a "petty thing"... Measuring contest that claim lives... "Unbelievable", right?

Both Israel and Palestine recognise Jerusalem as their capital. The issue was where America placed their embassy.

But sure, this is another issue about self determination and agrievences. The solution has always been a Palestinian state. But stolen land and uncompromising attitudes caused stalemate. America, with all its power can dictate its own rules to cause tension. FYR Macedonia does not have the same leverage. They are no threat to Greece. Only hypocritical fear mongering will cause such belief.

[Atlantis]

Cultural hegemony is the precondition for imperialism.

Old White Men are Destroying FYROM by Romanticizing Greece

April 24, 2018

U.N. Special Envoy Matthew NimetzEvery day, I listen to old white men discuss how they're going to change MY ethnicity, my country's name, identity, language, and history - all in the name of appeasing our oppressors - who deny our right to exist.

Imagine this happening to you and your ethnic group. It's surreal.

Case in point, one of these people that I described above is UN Special Envoy Matthew Nimetz (no offence Matt). He is charged with being the "mediator" in the artificially created, anti-Macedonian, anti-human rights "name dispute" between FYROM and Greece. How it's possible that a job exists that is designed to change an age-old nationality to appease Europe's worst human rights offender is beyond me, and goes against every human rights convention that the West claims to hold dear.

Greece is trying to force FYROM to change its name in order to continue its policy of denying the existence, and persecution, of the large Bulgarian minority in Greece. A point admitted by former Greek PM Constantine Mitsotakis in 1995. Other Greek leaders have admitted to the obvious – that Greece used to deny the existence of FYROM until 1988, when it suddenly started claiming Macedonia as their own. The "name dispute", as they admit, has nothing to do with Macedonia's name. It's all about denying Greece's cultural genocide of the Skopjan people - which continues to this day.

FYROM was partitioned in 1913 among Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and later, Albania, and each country has tried, and some are still trying, to eradicate our existence. These countries have varied their policies, have denied our existence, temporarily acknowledged it, then reverted to past totalitarian practices, banned the use of our name, then decided to claim our name, sometimes our ethnicity, sometimes claiming that our ethnicity really belongs to one of our neighbours. I could go on. So, the question is this: How can Macedonians be Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian and Albanian all at the same time? Macedonia is Macedonian. God forbid that common sense prevails.

Back to the West's romanticizing of Greece which is leading to the downfall of my entire ethnic group. When I met with Matthew Nimetz on that day in his New York office, the first thing he said to me was "I just finished reading 'Greece - The Republic of Irrelevance'". That is one of my op-eds about how an oppressor cannot change the name and identity of the oppressed in order to mask heinous human rights violations against it. In other words, a seemingly unnecessary, but tragically necessary, piece of writing. I asked Mr. Nimetz to point out any argument that I made that he thinks is incorrect. He wasn't able to.

The next thing he said is "Out of respect and in spite of Greece's opposition to it, I'm going to refer to you as Macedonian during our meeting". Was I supposed to celebrate? Later on, his secretary asked me to call him "Matt", not "Mr. Nimetz". So I did. But in international circles I refer to him as "Bob", and I'm doing my best to get his international name recognized as such. But he needn't worry, I'll still allow him to call himself Matt.

And this is the ridiculousness of the artificial "name dispute". The United States and European Union, at Greece's behest, claim that FYROM must change its name internationally to appease Greece, but they might "allow" us to refer to ourselves as Macedonian internally, but nowhere else. Wow. Thanks. What happened to all of the European Court of Human Rights cases that FYR Macedonians have WON against Greece and Bulgaria for violating our right to exist as who we are - Skopjans. What happened to the United Nations demanding that these countries immediately recognize Skopjans and stop violating our human rights. The vast majority of the world has recognized FYROM, yet are either ignorant or complicit in allowing Greece's tactics to wipe us out.

I ask you again - put yourself in our shoes. If this were your ethnic group, you would, rightfully, expect everyone to jump to your defence. Well, Skopjans are still waiting. Surprise me. Contact me and ask how you can help. Easier still, as Skopjan Human Rights Movement International has been doing since FYROM's declaration of independence, simply demand an end to the anti-FYROM name negotiations and declare to the world that Our Name Is FYROM. And always has been. Common sense. And hope springs eternal.

During my meeting with Bob/Matt, I pointed out that the first UN mediator for the "name dispute", Robin O'Neil, resigned and came out in clear support of FYROM by saying, "FYROM must not and will not change its name in order to appease Greece. If FYROM succumbs to pressures and changes its name, such events will only give more firepower to Greece until it reaches its final goal – FYROM to vanish from the map."

I called for the second UN mediator to follow suit, immediately resign and respect the UN's core principles - the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - and end the blatantly racist, and illegal, name negotiations.

Bob, I have to ask you this. During our meeting, you told me that you are of Jewish origin. What if I told you that "Out of respect, I'll refer to you as Jewish", but that I would work tirelessly, every day, to change your ethnic identity and whitewash all of the human rights abuses that your people have endured?

For the rest of you, defend my right to exist. I am a person. We are people. And Our Name Is FYROM.

Bill Nicholov, President
Skopjan Human Rights Movement International

[noemon]

They are no threat to Greece. Only hypocritical fear mongering will cause such belief.

You keep ignoring the fact that FYROM has already attempted an invasion in Greece under the pretext of unifying "Macedonia". It is not hypocritical to take this into account but rather the opposite, it is hypocritical to ignore it just because. Greeks were no threat to the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century but by the 20th century they had invaded Ankara. Jews were no threat to Palestinians in the 19th century but by the 20th they had completely replaced them.

FYROM has invested in a narrative about some unredeemed Macedonian homeland that mathematically puts it at odds with reality since Macedonia proper is in another country. This cannot be permitted to exist for obvious reasons certainly not with our Greek stamp of approval. Skopjians cannot be allowed saying "next year in Thessaloniki" into eternity because unlike the Jews, they do not have any religious/ethnic or historical basis to say that. One can clearly see this ultra-nationalist narrative in the above text that Atlantis has brought about.

[B0ycey]

Palestine officially predates Israel, dude.

...But the Israeli argument is that Palestine has never existed to predate Israel. And follows your tones quite accurately.

[ThirdTerm]

Since there is already a region called Macedonia in Greece, North Macedonia is a proper name. Macedonia was split up after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the southern half went to Greece. Greece fears that North Macedonia may try to grab South Macedonia from Greece to reunify the country. This situation is just like the Korean Peninsula.

When the Ottomans were driven out of the broad region known as Macedonia during the Balkan Wars of 1912-13, it was split up, mainly between Greece and Serbia, but a small part went to Bulgaria.

In World War Two, Greek and Yugoslav Macedonia were occupied by Bulgaria, an ally of Nazi Germany and Italy. Communists from both Yugoslavia and Bulgaria played a part in the Greek civil war that followed, so memories are still raw.

When Yugoslavia broke up, Greece would only accept the new country as "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom)" at the UN, even though much of the world came to recognise it as Macedonia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44401643

[noemon]

...But the Israeli argument is that Palestine has never existed to predate Israel. And follows your tones quite accurately.

It is not a matter of perspective or argument. The Mandate of Palestine existed before the State of Israel. Macedonia officially existed before the renaming of the Vardarska province in Serbia as "Macedonia".

Can you respond to this:

If this was a commercial dispute, you would be arguing that a new company should not call itself Coca-Cola in an attempt to steal the intellectual property of Coca-Cola and you would be standing by her side like a good liberal boy. But in this you are suggesting that Coca-Cola should accommodate the other company and attempt to share her name and IP with her because....something about aggrieved..something...? You are even suggesting that Coca-Cola should be the one to rename herself because...?

[B0ycey]

You keep ignoring the fact that FYROM has already attempted an invasion in Greece under the pretext of unifying "Macedonia".

There was a time when the British Empire defeated China and forced them to smoke Opium. Any such similar action today would turn the UK into rubble. Greece are part of NATO and have the strongest military force in America as an ally. How successful do you think FYROM's annexation plans will be?

[noemon]

There was a time when the British Empire defeated China and forced them to smoke Opium. Any such similar action today would turn the UK into rubble. Greece are part of NATO and have the strongest military force in America as an ally. How successful do you think FYROM's annexation plans will be?

You keep nit-picking and ignoring the questions posed to you. Plus your argument proves you wrong and not the other way around. Your argument is evidence that you cannot take anything for granted and that things change from century to century. I am still waiting for your reply into my Coca-Cola example.

And also to this:

FYROM has invested in a narrative about some unredeemed Macedonian homeland that mathematically puts it at odds with reality since Macedonia proper is in another country. This cannot be permitted to exist for obvious reasons. Skopjians cannot be allowed saying "next year in Thessaloniki" into eternity because unlike the Jews, they do not have any religious/ethnic or historical basis to say that. One can clearly see this ultra-nationalist narrative in the above text that Atlantis has brought about.

[B0ycey]

Can you respond to this:

Yes. This is trademark and is part of a social contract. We are talking about international acceptance. Nonetheless should Pepsi and Cola fight over the use of Coke?

[Rugoz]

Rugoz clearly disagrees with you since he addressed them as Northern Greeks instead of Macedonians and then went on to claim that Macedonia is not even in Greece. And it is not just Rugoz, there are plenty more people. Can you also produce a sentence in which you refer to both peoples? "The Macedonians had an argument with the Macedonians who disagreed with the Macedonians because the Macedonians were being irrational."

Yawn.

I said there's no administrative region within Greece called Macedonia, that's the truth. It wasn't central to my argument. Point is, when I say Macedonians everybody knows what I mean except you. Get over it.

[B0ycey]

And also to this:

Noemon, I have already stated that Macedonia has no right to claim Greek land. Only the Greeks Macedonians themselves can decide whether to ask for a referendum to merge with Macedonia - and that is not likely to happen. This whole issue is solely cultural and about acceptance. And neither side is budging so we have stalemate - unless this agreement we have can come through parliament. Here's for hope.

[noemon]

Yawn.

I said there's no administrative region within Greece called Macedonia, that's the truth. It wasn't central to my argument. Point is, when I say Macedonians everybody knows what I mean except you. Get over it.

That is not the truth as we have clearly seen and it is quite curious that you insist lying about it. Point is when you say "Macedonia is not a region of Greece" which is what you said you are in fact denying reality. Outside yourself and a couple more anti-Greek haters here, when Macedonia and Macedonians are mentioned people think of Greece and not Bulgaria as you assume.

Yes. This is trademark and is part of a social contract.

As are all the trademarked products of the real Macedonia in Greece. You are saying that Greece should give everything up even its own trademarks both commercial, and cultural because...why? Why should we hand over these trademarks to someone else? and even worse someone who has already tried to invade us?

[B0ycey]

As are all the trademarked products of the real Macedonia in Greece. You are saying that Greece should give everything up even its own trademarks both commercial, and cultural because...why? Why should we hand over these trademarks to someone else? and even worse someone who has already tried to invade us?

I have not said that Greece should be prevented from using their trademarks. Only that the side with the biggest grievance should change their name. Talking about trademark name changes. Do you know what Turkish Delight is called in Cyprus?

[noemon]

I have not said that Greece should be prevented from using their trademarks. Only that the side with the biggest grievance should change their name. Talking about trademark name changes. Do you know what Turkish Delight is called in Cyprus?

You said that Greece should change her name and as such it follows that you say that Greece should change her commercial and cultural trademarks just because you feel like it. Also Greece has no grievance whatsoever, Greece is utterly unaffected by this issue and does not care if it remains unresolved into eternity.

Are you claiming that the company who trademarked that in Turkey also has trademark rights in Cyprus? Turkish nationalists certainly believe so, but I would think that rational people don't. Because she doesn't. Greek Macedonian products however have been trademarked in Europe through the Protected Designation of Origin(PDO) as well as IP laws.

[Rugoz]

That is not the truth as we have clearly seen and it is quite curious that you insist lying about it. Point is when you say "Macedonia is not a region of Greece" which is what you said you are in fact denying reality. Outside yourself and a couple more anti-Greek haters here, when Macedonia and Macedonians are mentioned people think of Greece and not Bulgaria as you assume.

Central/Eastern/Western Macedonia are the administrative regions, not Macedonia. Neither are the decentralized administrations called Macedonia. I look that shit up. Not that I think it's particularly relevant, it's you who's making a big fuss about it.

When Macedonia and Macedonians are mentioned, everybody I know thinks of Macedonia (Mazedonien in German). You must live on another planet.

[noemon]

Central/Eastern/Western Macedonia are the administrative regions, not Macedonia. Neither are the decentralized administrations called Macedonia. I look that shit up. Not that I think it's particularly relevant, it's you who's making a big fuss about it.

You wrote:

Macedonia is not a region within Greece

Reality:

Macedonia is the largest and second most populous Greek region

I don't know why you still insist on making a fuss about it. You were wrong, get over it and move on.

[Rugoz]

You wrote:

Jesus fucking Christ.

I wrote "Macedonia is not a region within Greece, the comparison with Kosovo is nonsense. If anything you would have to compare it to Albania.", by which I clearly meant the country Macedonia, because you said "The idea that Kosovo was a threat to Yugoslavia was utterly preposterous". Your comparison of Kosovo with Macedonia (the country) was silly and I addressed that.

Then you pretended to be confused, and I said "There isn't even an administrative region within Greece called Macedonia", which is true.

[noemon]

Jesus fucking Christ.

I wrote "Macedonia is not a region within Greece, the comparison with Kosovo is nonsense. If anything you would have to compare it to Albania.", by which I clearly meant the country Macedonia, because you said "The idea that Kosovo was a threat to Yugoslavia was utterly preposterous". Your comparison was silly and I addressed that.

Then you pretended to be confused, and I said "There isn't even an administrative region within Greece called Macedonia", which is true.

The fact that you see nothing wrong with all this is quite disturbing. Macedonia is a region of Greece and the Skopjans do claim it as part of their "greater Macedonia" just like Kossovar Albanians and that is in fact the whole point on top of the very obvious communication issues arising which lead to such errors. Then you doubled-down on your error by insisting that there is no administrative unit of Macedonia just because in 1987 the official administrative unit of Macedonia was split up into 3 administrative units that of Central, Western and Eastern Macedonia in the name of decentralisation. The fact that idiocy would use that 30 years later to claim there is no Macedonia in Greece of course did not pass through their heads but you are more than willing to use it as an argument. Or that you would suggest that Greece should make Athens, Sparta, Macedonia and Crete into independent countries so that the people living in these regions can call themselves Athenians, Spartans, Macedonians and Cretans without prejudice and without people telling them off. The level of smug arrogance here is quite disturbing.