Will the Jews rebuild their Temple? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14944047
Oxymandias wrote:@colliric

Those aren't group knife rushes. They're assassinations which are far from being an Islamic invention.


I know that. That's what I'm saying!
#14944068
Oxymandias wrote:@colliric

Then why did you say that they’re like attacks made by the “Islamics”? If you agree that assassinations are completely different from group knife charges then this comparison contradicts your later statements.


The weapon used and intent, to cause general fear, is the same. They didn't just assassinate in public just because they wanted to murder the victim. They wanted to make a public statement and terrify their enemies.

They killed roman-sympathetic Jews too you know, in public.

THEY WERE TERRORISTS.
#14944098
@colliric

Yeah but they aren't knife group rushes. Al-Qaeda only recommended using knives since they were common place but any other weapon is also fine. Furthermore, I don't think there has been an reports of any terrorists not only using knives but knife rushing people.

In our modern perspective, both were terrorists however their methods differ greatly and so did their goals. There is no comparison to be made between them. Furthermore, the concept of terrorism didn't exist during those times. Linking to a couple of people in history who, now, are considered terrorists isn't an argument. The Sicarii weren't considered terrorists by the Romans or anyone in the ancient world for that matter. They weren't even seen as assassins. They were just, in the eyes of everyone, rebels.

Terrorism itself is a modern concept and using a modern perspective on the Sicarii only proves my point.
#14944130
colliric wrote:Jesus clearly stopped that from happening and you know it. A bunch of Jews turning up in Rome telling Romans about "Da Messiah guy who loves you all as well" saved your culture's ass. And you still refuse to believe it.


I don't know what you're talking about. How does this contradict with what I said?
#14944461
An Israeli nonprofit announced Wednesday that it would be releasing a celebratory coin in honor of the 70th anniversary of Israel’s independence, and it will feature the face of President Donald Trump as an expression of “gratitude” for his decision to move the American Embassy to Jerusalem.

The “Temple Coin” depicts King Cyrus, who allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem 2,500 years ago, alongside Trump, KOBI reported.

The seal of the United States government are also pictured, with biblical verses written in in Hebrew on the face of the coin. On the back is a dove, holding an olive branch in its beak, above a temple.

“The coin expresses our joy and gratitude that the American Embassy will be transferred to Jerusalem in honor of Israel’s Independence Day,” the Mikdash Educational Center said on its website. “It is the fulfillment of the Trump declaration recognizing the centrality of Jerusalem as the capital of the state of Israel.”

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/05/10 ... -move.html

To some in Israel, this increases their hope of rebuilding the temple as they did after King Cyrus allowed their return from exile after 70 years.
#14944556
Whenever Hindsite makes a post, I picture him literally sitting somewhere with the song "Hallelujah," permanently looped, blaring at full volume. Every kind of obnoxious rendition of Christian gospel music you'd hear in a clickbait video produced by any number of sleazy megachurch pastors, that's exactly what he hears when he makes a post.

It's the sort of music spontaneously heard in the minds of everyone who believe things like end times stuff, prophecies, and so on.
#14944591
It's the sort of music spontaneously heard in the minds of everyone who believe things like end times stuff, prophecies, and so on.


End times prophecies are for people who do not trust God.
#14949340
Drlee wrote:End times prophecies are for people who do not trust God.

You must be ignorant of the fact that the biblical prophecies were given by those that trusted God and that some of those prophecies concerns the end times. The rebuilding of God's temple is a part of the end time prophecies in the Holy Bible. Praise the Lord.
#14949341
He's BACK!

Must have gotten to the warden.

The Jews may never rebuild the temple. One might say they have a bit of a zoning problem.
#14949349
Drlee wrote:He's BACK!

Must have gotten to the warden.

The Jews may never rebuild the temple. One might say they have a bit of a zoning problem.

That can be quickly overcome. Praise the Lord. HalleluYah
#14949351
Hindsite wrote:You must be ignorant of the fact that the biblical prophecies were given by those that trusted God and that some of those prophecies concerns the end times. The rebuilding of God's temple is a part of the end time prophecies in the Holy Bible. Praise the Lord.


I hold to Scriptures as authoritative as a conservative Christian (I too am a young earth creationist as well), but I reject the dispensationalist interpretation of a temple being rebuilt; the rebuilding of temple as OT prophecy was fulfilled in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. The Jews mistakenly interpreted these prophecies as referring to a physical temple which is part of the reason they rejected Christ; they did not understand the point of those prophecies.

Christ fulfills the prophetic vision of the temple being rebuilt, of the sacrifices, of the priesthood. He is the Final Temple, The Final Priest, and The Final Sacrifice. This is how Scripture interprets itself, the New Testament sheds light on OT texts and makes clear what they meant.

I once held to the Dispensational interpretation as my parents were non-religious baptists, I even went to Bible College at one of the most traditional dispensational and baptist schools in the nation before converting to the faith of the Reformation (first historic calvinism and much later lutheranism); because their understanding of the Scriptures was itself more biblical than the Dispensational model, which relies of gaps and contradictions between OT prophecy and Apostolic interpretation in the NT.
#14949372
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I hold to Scriptures as authoritative as a conservative Christian (I too am a young earth creationist as well), but I reject the dispensationalist interpretation of a temple being rebuilt; the rebuilding of temple as OT prophecy was fulfilled in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. The Jews mistakenly interpreted these prophecies as referring to a physical temple which is part of the reason they rejected Christ; they did not understand the point of those prophecies.

Christ fulfills the prophetic vision of the temple being rebuilt, of the sacrifices, of the priesthood. He is the Final Temple, The Final Priest, and The Final Sacrifice. This is how Scripture interprets itself, the New Testament sheds light on OT texts and makes clear what they meant.

I once held to the Dispensational interpretation as my parents were non-religious baptists, I even went to Bible College at one of the most traditional dispensational and baptist schools in the nation before converting to the faith of the Reformation (first historic calvinism and much later lutheranism); because their understanding of the Scriptures was itself more biblical than the Dispensational model, which relies of gaps and contradictions between OT prophecy and Apostolic interpretation in the NT.

I am glad to hear that we have some beliefs in common. I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church and still hold to most of their teachings. However, I agree that Jesus referred to the temple of His own body, but if I remember correctly, the "end time prophecies" seem also to refer to a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem just prior to His second coming in the end time.
#14949380
Hindsite wrote:I am glad to hear that we have some beliefs in common.


I think a respect for the authority of Scripture is the main thing.

Hindsite wrote:I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church and still hold to most of their teachings.


I was raised, off-and-on, in an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church and also spent some time in a Free Evangelical church.

I was baptized at age 18, 3 months before I got married, in a Church of Christ church before becoming Presbyterian. I was a conservative Reformed Presbyterian for like 7 years and four of my five children were baptized in the Reformed church. I converted to Lutheranism (LCMS) like two years ago and my youngest son was baptized there.

Hindsite wrote:However, I agree that Jesus referred to the temple of His own body


Well that is essential in my opinion, the destruction and rebuilding of the temple in the Old Testament was clearly seeing its prophetic climax is Christ. This was a stumbling block even for the Apostles when He first explained it to them.

Hindsite wrote:However, I agree that Jesus referred to the temple of His own body, but if I remember correctly, the "end time prophecies" seem also to refer to a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem just prior to His second coming in the end time.


You would need to quote some texts on that for me to analyze; but it seems to me that a restoration of the Jewish state, people, temple, priesthood, and sacrifices are not conditions of His Second Coming.

Christians are the people of God, not the Jews. The Jews are apostates that are predominantly hardened for their rejection of the Messiah, but of which a remnant is being preserved (Romans 11). Rather, the Elect people of God are believers and their children. They are the true seed of Abraham (in Christ); and are therefore the true heirs of those promises of land, seed, and blessing. (Galatians 3).

This is important, the prophetic vision of a restoration of the land, the generations, and their ultimate happiness are not fulfilled in the Jews even if they were the audience of the original prophecies, as St. Paul indicates in Galatians, the point of the prophecies (which echo the promises made to Abraham) were always intended to find fulfillment in Jesus Christ and those united to Him.

This also applies to the Davidic covenant, part of Dispensational eschatology is the claim that Christ must fulfill the Davidic covenant in the second coming by returning and physically reigning from a physical throne in Jerusalem; however, Act 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 make pretty clear that Christ is reigning in fulfillment of the Davidic covenant RIGHT NOW. He is King RIGHT NOW and this triumph was accomplished at the Cross.

The primary condition for the Return of Christ that I see in the New Testament, is that the Gospel is to go out to ends of the earth (then the end will come).

There is no need for a temple or a Jewish state prior to Christ's return; whether such come to pass is a Seperate matter, but is ultimately irrelevant in my opinion.
#14949393
Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

The above verse seem to imply a rebuilt temple of God before Jesus Christ returns to gather His followers.
#14949463
Jesus is gathering his followers right now. He has been for over two thousand years.

There is no need to physically rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.

To VS point. A case could be made for asserting that St. Peters Basilica is the new temple. (There could be other candidates or none at all.)

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."


Strict chronological adherence to some divine master plan is a trap. It is simply buying time for some more sin before one finally 'gets serious'.
#14950442
Hindsite wrote:Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


I hold that is the Pope of Rome, but that is a separate discussion, but lets look at the Scriptures themselves on this matter.

One important rebuttal to your understanding of that text is also the fact that a Jewish temple would never be called "The Temple of God" in the New Covenant.

The Jewish temple was only a temple of God when God dwelt there in the holy of holies; however, after the tearing of the veil on the day of the Crucifixion, God no longer dwells there.

The temple of God is the Christian church, where God now dwells (Matthew 18:20, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

Likewise, just as Christ described His body as the True Temple in the Gospels (which we already discussed); its also noteworthy that the Church is now called "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:12-14, Ephesians 4:1-16).

Hence, Scripture itself seems to teach that the "Temple of God" is 1. where God dwells and 2. the Body of Christ.

Thus, given #1 and #2 above, would a Jewish Temple offering blood sacrifices again be:

1. Where God Dwells? Answer: No.

2. The Body of Christ? Answer: No.

So, Given #1 and #2 above, would the church be the Temple of God spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2? Let us ask again:

1. Is the Church where God dwells? Answer: Yes.

2. Is the Church the Body of Christ? Answer: Yes.

So, given the Scriptural evidence, is there a need for a rebuilt temple for the fulfillment of the prophecy by St. Paul regarding the man of sin?

Absolutely Not.

That being said, given the Scriptural evidence, is there a need for a man of sin to arise from within the church itself who will proclaim himself to be equal-to/same-as God?

Yes Indeed.

Thus, you have agreed that the prophetic vision of the OT regarding the rebuilding of the Temple was understood and explained by Christ as referring to His body, and when you were asked why you still support such a doctrine in spite of this, you supplied 2 Thess 2; however, if by using the same standard we used to explain the OT prophecies it is also shown that 2 Thessalonians 2 cannot possibly be talking about the Jewish temple, then on what basis do you believe that it will be rebuilt?

I see no Scriptural basis for such a belief at all whatsoever.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Drlee wrote:Jesus is gathering his followers right now. He has been for over two thousand years.

There is no need to physically rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.


Agreed.

Drlee wrote:To VS point. A case could be made for asserting that St. Peters Basilica is the new temple. (There could be other candidates or none at all.)


I think whatever case one wishes to make, it must be grounded in coherent exegetical methodology with historic precedent in the teachers of the church, not textual eisegesis and "innovation in the area of religion".

This is why Scriptura Scripturae Interpres is so important in hermeneutics.

Drlee wrote:Strict chronological adherence to some divine master plan is a trap.


This sounds oddly irreligious, I guess I would say we should only adhere strictly to a chronology if its biblically warranted, in the case of what we are discussing, it is not and is not really a strict chronology as the dispensational system has gaps in its prophetic timeline. I abandoned partial preterism for similar reasons.

Drlee wrote: It is simply buying time for some more sin before one finally 'gets serious'.


There can be truth to this, but give @Hindsite some credit, for the belief in the Rapture as a sudden event is a disincentive for sinning, even if I believe the rapture is a false doctrine that lacks scriptural support (what I like to describe as advental triple-vision as they see multiple comings of Christ instead of one true second coming as the historic faith professed).

Likewise, some of the most pious believers I ever met (if not the most pious) were post-millennialists who did not believe Christ would return until the entire globe was first Christianized (indeed, this was my former position from when I was Reformed).

I am currently what one would call an "optimistic" A-millennialist and a historicist when it comes to Christian eschatology.
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