Pro and Anti EU - The Arguments - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14979256
The EU is a good idea but it is being controlled by globalists that currently running it into the ground with their immigration policy (UN immigration pact a pathetic joke) and now this shitty article 13 which will end the internet as we know it
basically turnung the EU into China style authoritarianism ending the democracy once and for all (unofficially of course as they will keep pretending that they are for free speech and democracy)
#14979258
ZN, the EU is being controlled by whoever has been elected in national democratic elections, the vast majority of whom are currently conservative and neoliberal right-wingers because that is who the people have voted. All the laws it makes come directly from them and whatever issue you have, you should it take it up with them. Let me ask you a question ZN, when politicians in Israel do something stupid that you disagree with, do you call for Israel to be destroyed? or with the politician that did the gaffe to be voted out?

You mentioned article 13 that is currently being discussed in the EU parliament and if it passes it will still have to be ratified by member states. Let me tell you something ZN which you are clearly unaware, for an article to reach parliament it means that it has already been rubber-stamped by the elected ministers of the member states in the council of Europe, it means that it has already been approved by Orban and by all the other nationalist governments that you worship and support. So tell me ZN, why are you blaming the EU and not Orban for rubber-stamping it? The EU has not imposed this on Orban, he has approved it on his own and the Hungarians have voted for him and you have cheer-leaded them.
#14979268
Beren wrote:The EU vs member states thing is member states vs member states actually. Brexit is also an issue between 27 member states staying and 1 member state departing, however, those 27 are represented by the EU.


Indeed, the EU is simply the frame work that manages the relationships between the member-states, simply to ensure that every member state is equal.
#14979270
Let me ask you a question ZN, when politicians in Israel do something stupid that you disagree with, do you call for Israel to be destroyed? or with the politician that did the gaffe to be voted out?


I did not called for the EU to be destroyed but rather reformed as currently its out of touch with its people
France is a good example of that

You mentioned article 13 that is currently being discussed in the EU parliament and if it passes it will still have to be ratified by member states. Let me tell you something ZN which you are clearly unaware, for an article to reach parliament it means that it has already been rubber-stamped by the elected ministers of the member states in the council of Europe, it means that it has already been approved by Orban and by all the other nationalist governments that you worship and support. So tell me ZN, why are you blaming the EU and not Orban for rubber-stamping it? The EU has not imposed this on Orban, he has approved it on his own and the Hungarians have voted for him and you have cheer-leaded them.


Well those guys are the lesser evil I dont support everything they do but at least they are standing up against globalism and immigration (for Europe its self destruction in the long term in exchange for temporary economic boost)
in our government there are also talks about cosponsor the internet but not on such a wide scale as article 13 only porn censorship which is also a dangerous things because this small step can be beginning of something bigger
how are you going to deal with article 13? because if its going to be successfully implemented in EU we are all fucked

I dont like Netanyahu at all and Im not going to vote for him but I prefer him upon any leftist candidate we have because they are all leftist shills who will sell our national interests and security to EU or maybe to some future democratic president in exchange for some international PR (this already happened in the 90s thats why the Shin Bet have killed Yithak Rabin)
#14979271
Zionist Nationalist wrote:I did not called for the EU to be destroyed but rather reformed as currently its out of touch with its people
France is a good example of that

How is France a good example of that? The Yellow Vests have the sympathy of the people, but do they actually join them? Do the demonstrations gain any traction among them? Do they mean to depose Macron? No. No. No. That's how the adult world works, we all could imagine a better world but we're also aware of realities.

Also, the EU isn't responsible to the people, it's responsible to member states governments that are responsible to the people, which should be appreciated by nationalists and nation state advocates. If you want the EU to be more responsible to the people, then EU officials should be elected by the people directly, which would result in more EU-powers rather than less. Is it what you mean by reforms?
#14979275
noemon wrote:I did not claim that it is not economically liberal


Eh...that's literally what you said.

noemon wrote:Your sense of entitlement to shit on the EU with impunity is just mind-boggling.


I didn't know I need a "sense of entitlement" to shit on the EU with impunity. I mean wtf...

noemon wrote:That is highly debatable especially in Switzerland(composed of Italians, French & Germans) and the UK(Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English) or even relevant.


It is relevant. There's no European demos, no European political institutions comparable in legitimacy or accountability, no European pension system, unemployment insurance, social security, healthcare, taxation, fiscal equalisation, military, etc. Moreover, there are large income differences between rich and poor members.

If you liberalize under such conditions you inevitably run into certain issues.

noemon wrote:Why shouldn't the Italians be able to use subsidies in their own Swiss cantons to compete with the French cantons?


Funnily enough the cantonal governments run their own commercial banks. When we negogiate with the EU it always pushes us to put an end to that practice. :lol:

Besides, my personal position regarding economic liberalization is irrelevant here.
#14979277
Beren wrote:Also, the EU isn't responsible to the people, it's responsible to member states governments that are responsible to the people, which should be appreciated by nationalists and nation state advocates. If you want the EU to be more responsible to the people, then EU officials should be elected by the people directly, which would result in more EU-powers rather than less. Is it what you mean by reforms?


This. :up:

The EU is to sovereignty as NATO is to security.

Although during a time when global superiority is determined by collective influence, why anyone thinks the future should or will be protectionism/isolation is beyond me.
#14979279
Rugoz wrote:Eh...that's literally what you said.


Quote me.

I didn't know I need a "sense of entitlement" to shit on the EU with impunity. I mean wtf...
Besides, my personal position regarding economic liberalization is irrelevant here.


Even if the EU votes tomorrow to turn socialist and let everyone use subsidies till they have emptied their own coffers trying to save bankrupt companies, you will then turn around and blame her for that.

Is this not true, Rugoz?

Of course your personal position is relevant Rugoz, otherwise you will change the goal-post anytime you wish in order to gratify your anti-EU propaganda.

It is relevant.


Not at all, you do not need to share any of these things with other countries or people for you Rugoz as an individual to support economic liberalisation across the globe, which you already do, unless it's the EU of course. You do not need to share any these institutions to force other countries to stop subsidising their own industries which is a mantle the US has taken upon itself to enforce all across the globe with severe sanctions against any country that does not abide by these precepts.

Please tell us Rugoz, why is it wrong only for the EU specifically to be economic liberal, according to its own democratic wishes?

European political institutions comparable in legitimacy or accountability, no European pension system, unemployment insurance, social security, healthcare, taxation, fiscal equalisation, military, etc.


You have already said in here that you support majority rule, so that nation-states do not have any individual power but rather the whole European people vote for European officials directly bypassing our national governments, you are also an economic liberal and now you are telling us the above.

Are you a bloody European Federalist trying to get us to hand over our national powers to the EU? Or are you just a confused hater that will sprout whatever comes onto his mind to justify that hate? :?: And that as soon as we talk about creating any of those other institutions you mention, you will then turn around and call us "pathetic technocrats"? Because clearly there is absolutely nothing that the EU can do right by you.

And to top that off, all these things you mentioned cannot and do not ever pre-date political organisations!!! In accountability we have political institutions far more accountable than those both in the UK and the US. The EU can be held into account by every single member state a lot more than the UK can be held into account by Wales, a lot more than the US can be held into account by Texas.
#14979281
Beren wrote:The Yellow Vests have the sympathy of the people, but do they actually join them? Do the demonstrations gain any traction among them? Do they mean to depose Macron? No. No. No.

They also don't mean to leave the EU. :p
#14979295
noemon wrote:Quote me.


I quote:

noemon wrote:The 4 freedoms(free movement of goods, services, capital and labour) are not neoliberal in any meaningful sense of the term


noemon wrote:Are you a bloody European Federalist trying to get us to hand over our national powers to the EU?


No, I'm saying that liberalization shouldn't be pushed even further because that would necessitate federalism to make it work. The monetary union already doesn't work without it. Europeans are not ready for federalism, at least not yet. On a global level we have also have a tendency to go beyond tariff-free trade towards harmonization of regulation which necessitates a loss of national sovereignty and the establishment of supranational institutions lacking legitimacy.

It's not worth sacrificing political stability over a tiny bit of additional GDP.
#14979328
If you want the EU to be more responsible to the people, then EU officials should be elected by the people directly, which would result in more EU-powers rather than less. Is it what you mean by reforms?


Yes sorta. The EU should give more autonomy to countries and to the people who elect their leaders that supposed to represent them
if Easter countries dont want to accept immigrants they have the right to refuse without being harassed and demonized by the globalist elite
#14979331
Zionist Nationalist wrote:Yes sorta. The EU should give more autonomy to countries and to the people who elect their leaders that supposed to represent them
if Easter countries dont want to accept immigrants they have the right to refuse without being harassed and demonized by the globalist elite


But EU has nothing to do with accepting immigrants. Immigrants are coming because Merkel said that they are welcome and some other countries. People misinterpret this as EUs decision, it was not. This is exactly what you want but the other way around. Instead of not accepting them, Germany accepted them. This is exactly what happened.

This caused the first situation in the first place. Immigrants started coming in mass. If it was up the EU as a whole, i am pretty sure that those immigrants would not be accepted since eastern countries would veto such a decision.

So right now EU is in a pickle regarding this. They can't simple let them die on the sea. Although German said "You are welcome", they have to pass through other countries. Germany also panicked and said "Hey guys, we didn't expect this many, please accept some". But in reality what happened is even if other eastern countries/baltic/central european/southern accept them, they still go to Germany,France,Nordic,UK etc in mass.
#14979333
JohnRawls wrote:But EU has nothing to do with accepting immigrants. Immigrants are coming because Merkel said that they are welcome and some other countries. People misinterpret this as EUs decision, it was not. This is exactly what you want but the other way around. Instead of not accepting them, Germany accepted them. This is exactly what happened.

This caused the first situation in the first place. Immigrants started coming in mass. If it was up the EU as a whole, i am pretty sure that those immigrants would not be accepted since eastern countries would veto such a decision.

So right now EU is in a pickle regarding this. They can't simple let them die on the sea. Although German said "You are welcome", they have to pass through other countries. Germany also panicked and said "Hey guys, we didn't expect this many, please accept some". But in reality what happened is even if other eastern countries/baltic/central european/southern accept them, they still go to Germany,France,Nordic,UK etc in mass.


Well Im not that informed about whats going on within the EU I have to admit but I still dont like them they are shoving their nose in our business too much they think they know better than anyone else they have this disgusting elitist attitude especially countries like Sweden I just hate Sweden I wish them the worst
anyway
its sad that WW2 trauma have castrated the Germans once a nation of warriors now they are a nation of gay parades
they probably going to disappear in the next century
#14979341
Zionist Nationalist wrote:Well Im not that informed about whats going on within the EU I have to admit but I still dont like them they are shoving their nose in our business too much they think they know better than anyone else they have this disgusting elitist attitude especially countries like Sweden I just hate Sweden I wish them the worst
anyway
its sad that WW2 trauma have castrated the Germans once a nation of warriors now they are a nation of gay parades
they probably going to disappear in the next century


Point being that the EU exists to prevent such situation and to manage it on the EU scale instead of dictate/hegemony of 1 country. Since EU has no real power in many areas, this was circumvented and we are paying the price of German decision being enforced sort of on top of everybody who is suffering the negative consequences of this German decision. At its core, EU should have been able to preempt it but it wasn't. (Germany didn't ask the EU members and sort of like fuck you, we want them and we have the right to accept them as a nation state)

Also Germany is the one that is blocking the migration reform because it goes against their "values". At least they are blocking meaningful reform in the area that might restrict this immigration in a significant manner. There are obviously other countries involved here also like Sweden, Benelux etc

So when people speak about dictate of the EU, it is not really dictate of the EU. It is more of powerlessness of the EU. And this is something that many countries used (UK, Germany, France etc)
#14979458
I think ZN was making a point at EU citizens shouldn't have a 'right to work' and 'right of movement' to any other EU member-state. Not unilateral immigration policy towards non-EU states which can be changed at a whim. The first should be ended, the second lowered by each national government and start training up & employing their domestic populations.
#14979516
redcarpet wrote:I think ZN was making a point at EU citizens shouldn't have a 'right to work' and 'right of movement' to any other EU member-state. Not unilateral immigration policy towards non-EU states which can be changed at a whim. The first should be ended, the second lowered by each national government and start training up & employing their domestic populations.


The EU won't function like it is supposed to if we end the inner worker migration and movement.(The free movement of services is possible because of this) Most of the countries don't even have a problem with inner migration within the EU. UK is the only one that cares about this i think but that happened mainly because of Blair and Brown who didn't do the same thing as the other countries at the time. There was a small time gap where new members migration was barred for couple of years. Since Blair and Brown said that we need those migrants so all went to the UK in mass since other places were barred for several years. This caused this disbalance. The main problem for most countries is the migration of illegal immigrants outside of the EU. That is defenitally something that needs some kind of change and curbing down on.
#14979910
John Rawls wrote:There was a small time gap where new members migration was barred for couple of years.


For Bulgaria and Romania, I believe it still is barred.

Rugoz wrote:No, I'm saying that liberalization shouldn't be pushed even further because that would necessitate federalism to make it work. The monetary union already doesn't work without it. Europeans are not ready for federalism, at least not yet. On a global level we have also have a tendency to go beyond tariff-free trade towards harmonization of regulation which necessitates a loss of national sovereignty and the establishment of supranational institutions lacking legitimacy.


Even now -as we are watching this necessity unfolding- integration is taking place on an intra-governmental basis(finance ministers) rather than a federal basis.
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