EU-BREXIT - Page 113 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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User avatar
By ingliz
#14981749
Nonsense wrote:Voters WILL remember

I think voters will remember losing their jobs, loved ones dying because vital medicines and isotopes are unavailable, empty supermarket shelves and .........


:lol:
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981750
ingliz wrote:I think voters will remember losing their jobs, loved ones dying because vital medicines and isotopes are unavailable, empty supermarket shelves and .........


:lol:

People have always 'lost' their jobs, inside or outside of europe.

Sortages of food & medicine's are failures of 'supply', caused by physical(market) or political failures & NOT as a result of being outside of europe, even if some short-term issues arise.
User avatar
By Ter
#14981773
ingliz wrote:I think voters will remember losing their jobs, loved ones dying because vital medicines and isotopes are unavailable, empty supermarket shelves and .........


:lol:


Project Fear... again !

It is unbelievably stupid to think that medicines will not be available to the public after Brexit.
Supermarket shelves empty !
Oy vey !
We are all going to die.
Stop Brexit, if only to save Ingliz's pension !

Lol.
User avatar
By Beren
#14981774
The Guardian wrote:Thornberry suggests Labour may not commit to backing second referendum until UK 'about to hit wall of no deal'

Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, has suggested that Labour may not commit itself to backing a second referendum on Brexit until the UK is “about to hit the wall of no deal”. Speaking on the BBC’s Victoria Derbyshire, she was asked about claims that Labour is delaying the moment when it has to back a second referendum for as long as possible. She replied:

    "We are going through these different options as has been set out by our party policy. So we go for a general election. We are now at the stage of trying to look at all options that may be on the table, so we are trying to say to [Theresa May], ‘Look you need to have a customs deal, we have to be part of a customs union, you have to stop blackmailing us on no deal. There are certain things you absolutely have to do.’ We have been saying that.

    Then, if we end up where we are absolutely about to hit the wall of no deal, then of course we will try anything we can to make sure that we protect our country."

Now it seems both Labour and parliament want to exclude the possibility of no deal, so what would be on the ballot? Customs union with the EU versus Remaining in the EU? Or no deal versus customs union? Or what?
By B0ycey
#14981830
So can anyone actually tell me what May's plan B was today? :?:

A weekend wasted and all we know is there definitely is no referendum. Fuckin' fool. How to you expect to break an iceberg if you don't even have a hammer. Blow it away?

#nextvotesameresult
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981849
B0ycey wrote:So can anyone actually tell me what May's plan B was today? :?:

A weekend wasted and all we know is there definitely is no referendum. Fuckin' fool. How to you expect to break an iceberg if you don't even have a hammer. Blow it away?

#nextvotesameresult


Nonsense -

'Plan 'B' is just Plan'A', referendums are not like London buses apparently, for they ONLY come along once in a generation & NEVER on time. :roll: :roll: :lol:


All things considered, why waste a weekend worrying about a referendum,when it's approaching it's second 'birthday', though we have yet to decide whether it has a 'pedigree' , a stillborn 'bastard'..... or vise versa. :hmm: :p :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Nonsense on 21 Jan 2019 20:29, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Beren
#14981851
B0ycey wrote:So can anyone actually tell me what May's plan B was today? :?:

A weekend wasted and all we know is there definitely is no referendum. Fuckin' fool. How to you expect to break an iceberg if you don't even have a hammer. Blow it away?

#nextvotesameresult

Well, she only has to make it through to no deal to save her premiership because Labour will have to intervene then while they can't force a general election. Tory Remainers or moderates will have their cake and eat it too it seems.
By B0ycey
#14981855
A photo of May hard at work on plan B over the weekend.

Image

Plan B is indeed plan A but with the assurances that EU nationals don't need to pay for their visas. So what is she going to do on her return to Brussels? Go back and ask for backstop assurances? :lol:

What a waste of time speaking to opposition leaders if she isn't going to listen. Until she actually understands that a second referendum is the only way out of this shitfest she is fuckin' useless and might as well resign for what good she is. And please don't repeat the line of 'an insult of democracy' as if preventing democracy is somehow democratic May. What is democracy if you deny people the right to change their mind?
By B0ycey
#14981859
Beren wrote:Well, she only has to make it through to no deal to save her premiership because Labour will have to intervene then while they can't force a general election. Tory Remainers or moderates will have their cake and eat it too it seems.


She leads the nation to No Deal and she over takes Thatcher as the worse Prime Minister in UK history. At the moment we needs rebels to take the reigns away from the lunatic PM. Take a bow Yvette Copper. You are our only hope.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981867
Well, on the face of it, were any new 'deal' be agreed with MP's, it changes nothing, not only will it not 'fly' in Westminster, it won't in Brussels either.

Brussels will not countenance 'changes' to the Withdrawl Treaty, only Brussels can accept an 'extension' which, even if a new 'deal' were agreed, would not be unanimously accepted by the E.U, for whom ALL 27 would have to be in agreement, in Westminster it will not pass muster either.

Were any discussions going on between London-Brussels, it would not be done within any 'extension', but within the current deadline of 29 March 2019.

There will not be any negotiations on anything that removes any part of the Treaty, only discussions with clarification on the existing agreement.

Every part of the Westminster parliament machinations are doomed to failure at every turn, "Oh what a tangled web they weave, those who set out to deceive."

The country will repay the treachery visited upon it with the traitors of Westminster being ejected aplenty, I await 2022's election with mouth watering eagerness.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981869
There is nothing wrong in changing one's mind, it's just an individual thing, if remainers say that they have a 'right' to express that 'change-of-mind' by a second referendum, that's also no 'problem', because it will not happen before 29 March.

To have an opportunity to express that, they need a 'remainer' political party to include a new referendum within their election manifesto & I am sure they know it will mean another 5 years of Tory governance in the country were it to be included.

It's because of that they want to hijack this referendum result by 'extending' Article 50, having a 'second' referendum', having parliament take over the governance of the country, in other words, 'remainers' are not democratic, they are subversives, bent on hijacking our feeble 'democracy'.

Sometimes, it feels like 'remainers' are trying to 'hijack' this forum. :roll: :hmm: :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
By Londonbiker
#14981877
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1087276743231197185
Either Jeremy is being very badly advised or he himself has resigned to the fact he's not Prime Minister material. He'll always continue to be a protest politician, no deal is part of the A50 criteria & it won't be revoked either, cross party talks have failed despite TM attempts.

No deal will affect jobs, 750,000 in Germany (manufacturing) & at least 60,000 (maunufcturing) in Belgium. That's just two MS that'll be affected, let alone the knock on affect of Italy, Greece etc. The UK has the lowest uemployment levels for 40 years so the flexibility & buffer is far more tolerable compare to many EU countries.

HofC attempts to prevent no deal is woeful at best, Parliament knows it must deliver Brexit. In what form will decide parlimentry democracy for years to come, they've been warned & they fully know it, I expect resignations to follow in due course either way.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981891
Londonbiker wrote:Either Jeremy is being very badly advised or he himself has resigned to the fact he's not Prime Minister material. He'll always continue to be a protest politician, no deal is part of the A50 criteria & it won't be revoked either, cross party talks have failed despite TM attempts.

No deal will affect jobs, 750,000 in Germany (manufacturing) & at least 60,000 (maunufcturing) in Belgium. That's just two MS that'll be affected, let alone the knock on affect of Italy, Greece etc. The UK has the lowest uemployment levels for 40 years so the flexibility & buffer is far more tolerable compare to many EU countries.

HofC attempts to prevent no deal is woeful at best, Parliament knows it must deliver Brexit. In what form will decide parlimentry democracy for years to come, they've been warned & they fully know it, I expect resignations to follow in due course either way.



Nonsense =

The only sad thing is the denial of MP's wanting to frustrate or stop us leaving, the economic damage they are inflicting, both, in terms of their denial, as well as project 'fear', or their shenanigans in parliament, is something that voters of whatever persuasion,that voted either way in the referendum, will never forgive them for.
Theresa MAY had the power the referendum voters gave her to deliver 'LEAVE', without the concoction, called, 'BREXIT'.

She is the one that allowed MP's in parliament to begin to derail the referendum result, her cabinet & MP's should have forced her to either deliver 'LEAVE' or to RESIGN, they did neither, they,as a Party, are therefore complicit in the deception being perpetrated against the democratic vote of the people & must pay the price politically.

The same rule must also apply to CORBYN & Labour MP's.
By Rich
#14981896
Nonsense wrote:She is the one that allowed MP's in parliament to begin to derail the referendum result,

:lol: Derail? There was nothing to derail. There was no planning by the British government to actually implement a leave result. The only people who had a plan to deal with the Leave result were the EU. The thing that most concerns me is free movement, for myself, I plan to live and work part time in Europe, for my British friends a number of whom live and or work in Europe and my European friends who live at least part of the time in Britain. I'd prefer us to remain, but I would accept a vassal Britain deal if it preserved free movement rights for Europeans.

I have suspected since the referendum, that there was a significant possibility that we wouldn't actually leave, although I didn't know how exactly that would actualise. Anyway its fantastic to see the humiliating climb downs by Reese Mogg. First he demanded the PM resign and then a week later said he had confidence in her. He's now said he might actually vote for May's vassal Britain deal.
By skinster
#14981900
Brexit — the cure is worse than the disease and the disease has no cure
It was Winston Churchill who famously offered up, “The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

Though no elected British minister or politician of the current crop would dare venture anything approaching an endorsement of Churchill’s dismal verdict of the ‘average voter’, lacking his candour and biting wit for one thing, it’s a fair bet that many are sympathetic to it — and never more so than now with the country at sea in a Brexit storm with the clock ticking down to March 29 with no solution in sight.

It goes without saying that democracy, any democracy, only succeeds to the degree that its supposed beneficiaries, the average voter, are informed with a sufficient grasp of the issues. Yet with responsibility for insuring that he or she is informed devolving to the political class itself, along with a Fourth Estate (mainstream media in today’s parlance) ably and honestly fulfilling its role as disseminator of facts rather than a conduit for the prejudices and political hobby horses of its very rich proprietors, we arrive at the myth of a free press across the West and within the UK in particular.

In fact if any issue embodies the corrosive impact of the current state of media ownership in the UK it is Brexit. In the run-up to the EU referendum in June 2016 a veritable tsunami of half-truths, untruth, and obfuscation peddled by a Brexit-supporting media extended itself in ascribing the cause of British society’s ills to Brussels rather than a generation and more of free market Thatcherite economic nostrums, accompanied by an assault on the welfare state, NHS, public services, and the wages and conditions of the country’s working class.

More recently, in the wake of the 2008 economic crash and the resulting imposition of austerity, the callous disregard for the welfare of the most vulnerable in society spiked to the point where it became commonplace to blame their plight on them themselves, adding insult to very severe injury.

In other words, as part of an exercise in deflecting the underlying cause of the economic crisis — in précis private greed and an unregulated financial and banking sector — the political class and reactionary press successfully made the case that its cause was a crisis of public spending and bloated welfare state, thus setting up the most vulnerable as a convenient scapegoat in the eyes of a wider public demanding answers and solutions.

In the years since this scapegoating has continued apace; only now, in service to Brexit, the guns have been turned on migrants, refugees, and by extension existing minority communities, depicted as a threat to that hoary old leitmotif of ‘British values’.

In parenthesis, just what are those values the British people are meant to hold so dear anyhow? Are the product of an empire that plumbed new depths of racism and brutality in its super-exploitation of large swathes of the developing world? Are they the product of a cultural propensity for unleashing war against poor countries, resulting in the slaughter of innocents? Or do they derive from the callous cruelty towards the poor and vulnerable at home that has long been the shameful hallmark of a sociopathic ruling class?

On the other side of the Brexit divide it is impossible to be a fulsome supporter of the EU — certainly not in its current form — underpinned as it is by institutions that stand as a dismal reflection of a tired and outmoded Washington Consensus.

In fact it is no exaggeration to state that whenever a politician of the stature of Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Commission, pops up on your television screen your stomach automatically hits the floor. Verily, if mediocrity were an Olympic sport Mr Juncker would boast a string of gold medals; yet by dint of some grotesque bureaucratic trick, the man finds himself endowed with the power to dictate chapter and verse to sovereign governments, which unlike him are accountable to electorates.

The cracks that have appeared in the foundations of the EU recent years, of which Brexit is the most serious, reflects the neoliberal economics it champions; the very same that have wreaked havoc in the lives of millions of ordinary working people. In truth, neoliberalism is a corpse whose burial is long overdue. And whether in the context of the EU or Brexit Britain, until there is a fundamental break with this dead economic model political and social crises across Europe will continue to be the rule rather than its exception.

Despite the narrative to the contrary, Polish plumbers and Bulgarian bricklayers are not the enemy of working people in the UK. Migrant workers are not the cause of the crisis within the NHS, the housing crisis, or any of the other crises that working people in Britain are faced with. Those are a product of the most draconian austerity programs of any advanced economy. Taking a wider view, the enemy of working people of all nationalities and cultures are global corporations with their ability to sow economic dislocation and foment a race to the bottom to the detriment of workers of all lands. And with this in mind, for all its manifest drawbacks the only political entity to stand up to global corporations in recent years has been the EU

The concept of European unity is a sound and progressive one; the role of nationalism across the European continent in producing two of the most devastating world wars and conflagrations in human history leaves no doubt of it. But for there to be a truly united Europe the inclusion of Russia and the exclusion of the US is non-negotiable; for it is the lack of the former and too much of the latter that is the true source of Europe’s problems in the second decade of the 21st century.

I maintain that a Corbyn government within the EU would have a massive catalysing impact on left and progressive forces across the continent, pushing back against the traction of an awakened far right and presenting Brussels with an ideological challenge it has not yet faced. This being said, Corbyn’s stance on Brexit at this juncture is the most coherent and nuanced of all the available permutations mooted. It is one tailored to addressing the regional and national fault lines cleaved across these islands over 40 years of Thatcherism — fault lines that were and are reflected in the breakdown of the 2016 EU referendum result.

Theresa May’s determination to hang on regardless has the line from tenacity and is now affront to democracy. We currently have general mayhem masquerading as leadership; what we need is a general election and new leadership. The mounting casualties of austerity demand nothing less.

As they continue pile up, Brexit increasingly takes on the character of a sideshow.

End.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981912
Rich wrote::lol: Derail? There was nothing to derail. There was no planning by the British government to actually implement a leave result. The only people who had a plan to deal with the Leave result were the EU. The thing that most concerns me is free movement, for myself, I plan to live and work part time in Europe, for my British friends a number of whom live and or work in Europe and my European friends who live at least part of the time in Britain. I'd prefer us to remain, but I would accept a vassal Britain deal if it preserved free movement rights for Europeans.

I have suspected since the referendum, that there was a significant possibility that we wouldn't actually leave, although I didn't know how exactly that would actualise. Anyway its fantastic to see the humiliating climb downs by Reese Mogg. First he demanded the PM resign and then a week later said he had confidence in her. He's now said he might actually vote for May's vassal Britain deal.



Nonsense -

I agree that the U.K hasn't a clue about anything,not least in preparing for what the referendum decided, to LEAVE.

Rich -
I'd prefer us to remain, but I would accept a vassal Britain deal if it preserved free movement rights for Europeans.

Nonsense -

So, you want us to 'remain' in the E.U.

Well, at least we know for certain what you stand for by coming off the fence, which is more than Theresa MAY has done. :hmm:

Now, you would accept the U.K becoming a 'vassal' Britain, if it preserved 'freedom of movement' for europeans do you now.
That sounds exactly like the 'Deal' that Theresa MAY achieved with the E.U.
Unfortunately for the dreamers in 'remain', parliament rejected that option, by killing the 'deal'.

Do you honestly think that Britain would willingly pay a form of Danegeld to Brussels for 'preserving free movement for E.U citizens', when such 'rights' are not reciprocated in that preference of yours & let the tsunami of migrants into the U.K continue unabated?

You want us to pay for your 'rights'?

I can smell a 'revolution' coming on. :(

:hmm: Let's get the fudge out of here. :hmm: :p :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981917
[quote="skinster"][/quote]


I will give a thumbs-up for your contribution. :up: :up: :peace:
By Unperson-K
#14981926
Meanwhile, in the House of Lords...

PoliticsHome wrote:Lords put brakes on post-Brexit trade plans with embarrassing Government defeat
21st January 2019

The House of Lords today inflicted a humiliating defeat on the Government as it stalled progress on ministers' post-Brexit trade plans.

Peers voted by 243 to 208 to shelve the Trade Bill amid concerns ministers have refused to provide enough detail over its proposed future arrangements.

Among their complaints is that the Government has failed to make guarantees on food safety and animal welfare in its hoped-for trading regime.

The defeat also means preparations to move to World Trade Organisation terms in the event of a no-deal Brexit are impossible, according to Cabinet minister Liam Fox.


The motion passed today will hold up the Report Stage of the bill, which had been set for 25 February, until a white paper or other detailed proposals on trade have been published.

It was tabled by Labour leader in the Lords Angela Smith, who told peers: “I am aware that the Government is consulting, but no further legislation has been introduced - not a White Paper, or even a Green Paper, and time is running out.

“It is not unreasonable that, before we complete our consideration of this Bill, we should have more information about, and proposals on, such an important policy issue."

She added: “We will be unable to fulfil our obligation of scrutinising this Bill effectively without further information on how the government intends to provide proper accountability and scrutiny of current and future trade agreements.”

Ministers have failed to put more flesh on the “skeleton” of the bill for an eye-watering 15 months.

Lords want the Government to lay out how future trade agreements will be agreed and scrutinised, and how some 40 existing trade deals the UK enjoys as part of the EU will roll over after Brexit.

International Trade Secretary Dr Fox said last month that without the legislation the UK would be unable to sign up to the General Procurement Agreement of the WTO, thought of by Brexiteers as a route to a no-deal future.

“Certainly, it wouldn’t be possible to have the UK membership of the GPA without the legislation of the trade bill going through,” he said.


A Department for International Trade spokesperson told the Independent at the weekend: “The aim of the Trade Bill is to ensure the continuity of our existing trading relationships and it is not an opportunity to renegotiate the terms of the EU’s agreements.

“We have been absolutely clear that we will maintain the UK’s high food standards in both our existing and future free trade agreements. To suggest that the Trade Bill will do otherwise is completely false.”


https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/fo ... barrassing

Oh dear...looks like no WTO rules for the UK either.
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