[Ter]

Maybe it would be beneficial for all involved if the Scots would leave the UK and join up with other wind-swept regions that have incomprehensible languages in the neighbourhood, like Iceland, Friesia, Far Oer, Shetland and some such. They have fisheries resources and are suitably inbred.

[Seeker8]

Ian Blackford made a passionate quasi-secession speech and there was a heated debate between Scottish MPs. He also said that Scotland wouldn't be dragged out of the EU against its will. I wonder if how serious all that was.

Yea it's serious, the SNP have a mandate for a second referendum if we leave the E.U since the Scottish parliment voted for it. Polls show a strong win for independence if there's a no deal brexit.

If they just refuse i think it will increase support for independence since we are supposed to be a "union of equal nations" not a colony.

Ian Blackford's speeches keep getting cut off by the BBC BTW, just shows how scared they are.

[Seeker8]

This is quite a good summing up of the Brexit situation from Wings over Scotland, the Independence blog.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/what-the-hell-now/

After tonight’s series of votes in the Commons, all five of which were technically won by Theresa May, there are three possible outcomes. Let’s whizz through them all.

————————————————————————————-

OPTION 1: BREXIT ON JUNE 30TH

Tonight’s final vote mandated the government to ask the EU for an Article 50 extension to June 30th in order to implement the Withdrawal Agreement if it passes in Parliament by next Wednesday.

We can’t see any chance of that happening, even if we assume the EU would grant it (which it probably would). 75 MPs would need to change their minds on the WA in the space of a week, and in so far as anything in the world makes sense any more, they’re not going to. We could be wrong, but it looks a total non-starter.

OPTION 2: MUCH LONGER DELAY

This is the second outcome provided for by the motion. It requires the UK to come up with a very good reason for the EU to grant a much longer extension – realistically, the only plausible ones are a second referendum or a general election. The Conservative Party would absolutely implode if either of those things came to pass, and public fury would be considerable.

Even if there were to be an election it probably wouldn’t solve anything anyway, but it’s what we’d do if we were the Tories, because it’d tear Labour in two as well. Be that as it may, though, we can’t see turkeys voting for this particular Christmas. The Tories would need a new leader and we doubt they fancy that battle right now, never mind the chance of losing their own seats.

So either the government will just fail to ask the EU for a long extension, or will do so cursorily, without a decent reason, forcing the EU to run out of patience and refuse.

OPTION 3: NO-DEAL BREXIT IN 15 DAYS

If that transpires, Brexit goes ahead on 29 March, as Theresa May has repeatedly and doggedly insisted that it would, but with no deal. The Tories will be able to blame the EU for refusing an extension, and much of the UK media will back them up.

Brexit will happen, however messily, so Theresa May won’t go down in history as the PM who failed to deliver the “will of the people”, which is the thing that terrifies her the most. Of three unpleasant options, no-deal is probably the one that does the least damage to the Tories, and they’ll appeal to the electorate to deploy the Blitz Spirit and get through these difficult times together, yada yada yada.

————————————————————————————-

Option 1 is a dead duck. Option 2 rips the Conservative Party to shreds and requires the Tories to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Option 3 fulfils what they claim is their duty to enact the referendum result, with a hideous outcome but crucially one which can be blamed on someone else.

(Not just the EU but also opposition and rebel Tory MPs who didn’t vote for the WA.)

Based on what you know of this government, readers, which of those do you think is the most plausible? Yeah, us too.

[Rich]

The EU has two great weaknesses in its negotiations with the UK: Eire and Spain. The EU could have used Scotland as a lever to break the UK, but Spain wouldn't tolerate it. If Scotland can be an independent country within the EU, then why can't Catalonia? Even if the UK were to leave the EU without a deal, I suspect that Spain's priority would still be blocking and sabotaging Scottish Independence. This will override both EU solidarity and getting back Gibraltar. Contry to the filthy lies of the Brexiteers the EU works very hard and is very respectful of its member states. If a member state has an overriding priority the EU will normally make great efforts to accomadate this.

The key here is priorities, Britain has had immense success in getting its priorities attended to. The problem is the British government's priorities are often things like the interests of the British banking or furthering the interests of Israel. The British government often does not want to own up to what its real priorities are, hence the Euro sceptics lies that Britain is always overruled. If the British government's priorities had been say reducing net contributions and the British fishing industry, then it could have got a much better deal on these things. But they weren't and so they haven't. Leaving will solve nothing, because the priorities of the British government in their negotiations as a non member will be no different from their priorities as a member.

There is no doubt that Europeans have become more pro Palestinian in recent years, so inevitably the EU reflects this trend. Because of this Jewish supremacists have come to dislike the EU, feeling they are entitled to grovelling subservience. They pretend to care about the member nations and support the break up of the EU. They are not to be trusted. They do not have our interests at heart.

[Nonsense]

The EU has two great weaknesses in its negotiations with the UK: Eire and Spain. The EU could have used Scotland as a lever to break the UK, but Spain wouldn't tolerate it. If Scotland can be an independent country within the EU, then why can't Catalonia? Even if the UK were to leave the EU without a deal, I suspect that Spain's priority would still be blocking and sabotaging Scottish Independence. This will override both EU solidarity and getting back Gibraltar. Contry to the filthy lies of the Brexiteers the EU works very hard and is very respectful of its member states. If a member state has an overriding priority the EU will normally make great efforts to accomadate this.

The key here is priorities, Britain has had immense success in getting its priorities attended to. The problem is the British government's priorities are often things like the interests of the British banking or furthering the interests of Israel. The British government often does not want to own up to what its real priorities are, hence the Euro sceptics lies that Britain is always overruled. If the British government's priorities had been say reducing net contributions and the British fishing industry, then it could have got a much better deal on these things. But they weren't and so they haven't. Leaving will solve nothing, because the priorities of the British government in their negotiations as a non member will be no different from their priorities as a member.

There is no doubt that Europeans have become more pro Palestinian in recent years, so inevitably the EU reflects this trend. Because of this Jewish supremacists have come to dislike the EU, feeling they are entitled to grovelling subservience. They pretend to care about the member nations and support the break up of the EU. They are not to be trusted. They do not have our interests at heart.

Nonsense -

I take your point on Spain-Scotland, but Scotland is an integral part of the U.K, just to recall the Scottish Independence referendum, the global 'establishment' weighed in to frustrate that action, only because the U.K as a whole were not so easy to intimidate, did the populace elligible to vote, do so accordingly.

As with Catalonia, so too with N.Ireland, a unification' referendum in favour of unity would, at a stroke 'solve' the Irish question, by 'unification', I mean the north joins with the south.
I don't see why Spain would object to Scotland becoming a memeber, once it becomes 'independent', for what reason would they want to?

Your anti-semitism comes to the fore here, as does your hatred of the voters who voted leave, 'democracy' is a double-edged sword, by it's nature it cannot please everyone & politicians treat it with utter contempt when 'minority' interest take precedence in the way that they administer the power the electorate gives them for a parliamentary period.


With people like you Rich, with your 'supremacist ' attitude, I am sure that we will succeed once we have left the E.U & I absolutely refute all that you say in your hatred of Israel.
Leaving, of course doesn't solve everything, it's not meant to, the freedom that it confers back to this country is too precious to cede to any federal structure such as the E.U.

We will make our own success or fail in the attempt, that is the choice that our freedom will give us, the alternative is to,' live-on-our-knees' within a federal E.U, or to 'die-on-our-feet' - 'if' we fail, which, given our mercantile history, along with our national desire to contribute to global wellbeing, will not happen.

The political discourse paints the Tory as the 'conservative' in our national life, that has never been the case, that label actually sticks with the 'Left'.
Freedom is an intangible that people take for granted, losing it is when it's value becomes apparent & real.

[Nonsense]

Yea it's serious, the SNP have a mandate for a second referendum if we leave the E.U since the Scottish parliment voted for it. Polls show a strong win for independence if there's a no deal brexit.

If they just refuse i think it will increase support for independence since we are supposed to be a "union of equal nations" not a colony.

Ian Blackford's speeches keep getting cut off by the BBC BTW, just shows how scared they are.

Scotland should have the right & opportunity to free itself from the imperial yoke that it is currently impaled on.

So too with N.Ireland with the South.

It gives the lie to the subjective title that this nation displays,the 'United' Kingdom.

Once independence for Ireland, Scotland, possibly not Wales, perhaps this nation can revert to it's proper name, Britain-without the 'Great'.

[Heisenberg]

I used to have a Scottish bridge partner and I had problems understanding him even when he was not drunk.

What do you mean by "even" when he wasn't drunk? Trying to make sense of a sober Scot is like trying to run a petrol car on diesel.

As for Scottish independence, I hope it doesn't happen, but can hardly say I'd blame them if they did vote for it. The last referendum was run in completely the wrong way, treating Scottish people with an unnecessary and ridiculous level of hostility and contempt.

Given that this time it'd be Theresa May trying to run the No campaign - a woman with the emotional intelligence of a Dalek - I suspect the second referendum campaign could be incredibly nasty and cause a very deep rift between England and Scotland.

As @Seeker8 says, it's supposed to be a Union of equals, not a colony.

[Rich]

Your anti-semitism comes to the fore here,

That's a disgusting lie! I am perhaps the most vociferous anti-anti-Semitism poster on this forum. Adolph Hitler was the classic Anti-Semitic Islamophile. He argued that Islam was a superior religion and that if Europe had adopted Islam it would have thrown back the Arabs because the Arabs were racially inferior Semites. I argue almost the complete opposite. I am a Greater European Nationalist. Greater Europe includes super Saharan Africa and the Fertile Crescent. I acknowledge our debt to the great pre -Islamic civilisations of North Africa and the Fertile Crescent many of which were Semitic, such as Babylonia and the Phoenicians.

As for being anti Jewish, that's even more of a joke. I was one of the courageous minority that praised Trump for recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital. I recognises and support Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem, and I recognise and support Israel's annexation of the Golan heights. I recognise the Shebaa farms as Israeli territory. I would happily support an Israeli reoccupation of South Lebanon and a cleansing of Hezbollah from South Lebanon. Also far from calling the Ashkenazi Turks as so many of the Jew haters do, my starting assumption is that the Ashkenazi are racially Germanics, quite possibly genetically closer to Germans than myself.

[Atlantis]

The EU has two great weaknesses in its negotiations with the UK: Eire and Spain. The EU could have used Scotland as a lever to break the UK, but Spain wouldn't tolerate it.

Firstly, the EU is not an empire and does not use the divide and rule tactics for promoting regime change that has been used for so long by the UK and the US.

Secondly, the EU is a Union of sovereign nations that cannot promote the dismantlement of its member. That would be like asking the labor unions to oppose worker's rights.

When and if Scotland and Catalonia achieve independence, they will be admitted as sovereign nations in the EU, but not before that.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Firstly, the EU is not an empire and does not use the divide and rule tactics for promoting regime change that has been used for so long by the UK and the US.

Really? and what about Libya did you forgot that? it was the EU that have attacked Ghadaffi and made him getting executed not to mention the support for the rebels thought all of the civil war

[SolarCross]

The Scots won't get independence unless they win a seccession war. Referenda are not binding after all.

[Heisenberg]

The Scots won't get independence unless they win a seccession war.

Don't be absurd.

[B0ycey]

If the UK left the EU and Scotland went independent and joined the EU, would there be a need for a backstop?

[Beren]

Don't be absurd.

Why not? Radio Absurdistan. Let them have their frequency. Then we can talk.

The British PM could be an EU-boss. Even the Dutch PM is a fucking boss. Or the taoiseach. Get it? It's a round table, although Seat N°1 wouldn't be yours.

[Rich]

Really? and what about Libya did you forgot that? it was the EU that have attacked Ghadaffi and made him getting executed not to mention the support for the rebels thought all of the civil war

Funny I thought it was a NATO operation not an EU one. I hadn't realised that the United States had joined the EU, let alone taken part in EU military Union.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Funny I thought it was a NATO operation not an EU one. I hadn't realised that the United States had joined the EU, let alone taken part in EU military Union.

EU is part of NATO
we all know that Sarkozy was the one who pushed for all of it probably out of personal financial interests

Obama was supporting this thinking toppling a dictator will be cool and will further improve his image
but turns out it was a mistake that he himself admitted later

[JohnRawls]

EU is part of NATO
we all know that Sarkozy was the one who pushed for all of it probably out of personal financial interests

Obama was supporting this thinking toppling a dictator will be cool and will further improve his image
but turns out it was a mistake that he himself admitted later

Obama just did a follow along especially because this is what his generals and advisors wanted. As much as he saw it it was a win-win. Both in PR/political department that he will support his classical allies and will also please his advisers and the classical national security interest within the country. Mccainists were very please with this, they never expected Clinton to be so for lack of a word Mccainist herself.

[SolarCross]

Don't be absurd.

The land belongs to Her Maj, she doesn't need to give it up without a fight regardless of what bits of paper one waves around. "Independence" without a fight would look something like Canada or Australia, independence of westminster but not of Her Maj.

[Heisenberg]

The land belongs to Her Maj, she doesn't need to give it up without a fight regardless of what bits of paper one waves around. "Independence" without a fight would look something like Canada or Australia, independence of westminster but not of Her Maj.

In other words, the exact form that was proposed by the SNP last time around. They weren't going for a Scottish Republic in 2014, and I don't believe Sturgeon has said or implied anything different since.

[SolarCross]

In other words, the exact form that was proposed by the SNP last time around. They weren't going for a Scottish Republic in 2014, and I don't believe Sturgeon has said or implied anything different since.

Sure but given the EU wants political union including absorbing member states' armed forces that means an "independent" Scotland will be just as incapable of remaining or re-joining the EU as the rest of Britain, so given that what is even the point of "independence"?