[Victoribus Spolia]

Well, since the question was about children in an unqualified manner, I seen no reason to place a limit on the scope that they themselves did not place upon it.

Thus, it appears they are proposing mandatory universal vaccination unless someone shows me otherwise.

[Pants-of-dog]

Okay, so you do not know what they are proposing and are making an argument from ignorance.

Let me know when this thread is about a real issue. Thanks.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Okay, so you do not know what they are proposing and are making an argument from ignorance.

Let me know when this thread is about a real issue. Thanks.

Five bucks says you'll be back.

[Pants-of-dog]

That was an easy bet to win!

Anyway, it seems impossible to discuss Sanders’ vaccination policy without making an argument from ignorance.

From his website:

What does Bernie have to say about vaccines?
Bernie believes that vaccinations are safe and effective, and that electing not to vaccinate is dangerous and wrong. In his own words:

“I think obviously vaccinations work. Vaccination has worked for many, many years. I am sensitive to the fact that there are some families who disagree but the difficulty is if I have a kid who is suffering from an illness who is subjected to a kid who walks into a room without vaccines that could kill that child and that’s wrong.”

So he explains the moral dilemma that anti-vaxxers face (i.e. either confining their own kids or risking the health of other kids) but he makes no mention of actual policies.

Obviously, he is running for POTUS, which is why he makes statements that are both clear and yet promise nothing.

[Victoribus Spolia]

You would owe me five bucks because you have a predictable problem with controlling yourself.

Further,

I am taking his words at face value, if he did not introduce a qualifier; neither should we; that would be a fallacy of presumption.

Given the propositions made, there is no evidence to assume anything other than what he has stated; hence, it appears that we have at least two presidential candidates in favor of a universal federal mandate for compulsory vaccination. If you have a reason as to why I should assume otherwise regarding his plainly stated remarks, please present it.

Otherwise, you were wrong when you stated that no one has proposed such.

[Pants-of-dog]

I would consider his total lack of any policy mandating vaccines to be an absence of any evidence supporting compulsory vaccination.

His (or perhaps, an answer sent from his campaign office) vague answer to a vague question does suggest evidence for compulsory vaccinations, but there is no clarification as to what he meant.

Chances are it means that he supports getting rid of philosophical exemptions to the current laws requiring vaccinations to attend public schools.

Edit:

So, if the vagueness of his stance is due to his election campaign (i.e. he is vague so that potential voters can assume he believes the exact same things they do), then it also apparently has implications for people who are not potential voters.

For example, @Victoribus Spolia is not a potential Sanders voter, and the vagueness allows space for VS to believe that Sanders believes whatever VS ascribes to him.

But since VS would never vote for Sanders anyway, this has no negative impact for Sanders.

[Rugoz]

And that's what I see, just unmitigated imbecility. Total bubble headed donk stupid jackassery.

Now imagine what I see!

But it's ok, as an American you're excused. I suggest you start building a rocket to prove that the world is flat.

[Drlee]

Savad had his ass handed to him in the other thread so he started this one on the same subject.

There's nothing to debate, I got multiple top public health experts saying vaccines haven't been properly studied. If that doesn't change your mind then that's just an issue with your mentality. Invincible ignorance is the norm in this world, most people are just militantly dedicated to bullshit.

Actually what he has is nothing. He simply does not understand the conversation. I am not going down the rabbit hole with idiots. Just pointing out the obvious.

But just to piss off Savad and VS, I would advocate for SOME mandatory vaccinations. Society has always protected itself from people too unintelligent to join the conversation.

[annatar1914]

I've agonized over this one issue for some time, because it is something of a litmus test for my own worldview and rejection of Modernity as Antichrist.

I'm willing to be considered some kind of deluded religious maniac by the secular modern world, so I'll say that compulsory vaccination is in all serious truth, of the Devil on principle.

We are not livestock, we are not cattle or sheep to be herded about like mere animals without rational souls. We are men made in the Image and Likeness of Almighty God. His Sheep, not the State's.

[Sivad]

Savad had his ass handed to him in the other thread

Drlee won with the poorly educated. Drlee loves the poorly educated.

[Pants-of-dog]

If the only proposals for compulsory vaccinations are vague campaign promises, then it seems a bit of a stretch to argue that these are concrete proposals.

@Sivad

Do you mean the legislative reactions in the Pacific Northwest to the recent measles outbreak?

[Drlee]

Do you mean the legislative reactions in the Pacific Northwest to the recent measles outbreak?

You mean the completely avoidable measles outbreak caused by profoundly stupid people who put their mythical rights against the health of their children? The kids should be put in foster care rather than left to parents who would play dice with their lives.

[blackjack21]

You mean the completely avoidable measles outbreak caused by profoundly stupid people who put their mythical rights against the health of their children? The kids should be put in foster care rather than left to parents who would play dice with their lives.

Well, we can always weed idiots out of the gene pool this way...

[Sivad]

No one-liners, especially insulting ones. That includes pictures. And don't double-post!

Prosthetic Conscience, Political Circus host

[Victoribus Spolia]

Well, we can always weed idiots out of the gene pool this way...

I prefer this perspective, after all, it assumes that people should be allowed to do things that could theoretically weed them out.

Which is fine, at least voluntary choice remains intact.

But just to piss off Savad and VS, I would advocate for SOME mandatory vaccinations. Society has always protected itself from people too unintelligent to join the conversation.

Joining the conversation has never been the problem, being allowed to go ones own way is the issue.

The pro-mandate people argue from the utilitarian calculation that less people will die if we forced everyone in the U.S. to be vaccinated at gun-point.

however, they never take into account the calculation of how many people will die in violent resistance against a mandate.

I would argue that more people will die fighting against a mandate then will die because we merely permit people to make informed decisions on their own.

@Drlee, you won't make me angry about advocating for people to definitely die, its just a curious thing that you would prefer something that will result in more deaths than keeping our current system of state-authorized exemptions to a suggested schedule, and supposedly on the premise of saving lives.

The irony is very palpable and frustrating, but its not angering. I have little power to change what the tyrannical state does or does not legislate. I have prepared my soul in the event it comes to what you want.

as for you, we will all have to give an account for our belief and what we advocated for here on earth. My conscience is clean. We'll see how yours is when your political desires results in hundreds of men, women, and children dying at the hands of soldiers and police officers on a magnitude greater than those who have died from measles or chicken pox in the last 50 years (guaranteed).

Given human depravity, you'll probably chuckle from your ivory tower while sipping you vintage wine comforting yourself with the remark; "well, if they weren't so stupid they'd still be alive, not my problem."

I am sure the Lord will reward your comfort with "well done my good and faithful servant."

[Pants-of-dog]

I doubt people will choose armed insurrection just because the school systems no longer allow philosophical exemptions for vaccines.

[blackjack21]

I doubt people will choose armed insurrection just because the school systems no longer allow philosophical exemptions for vaccines.

Yes, but the banning un-vaccinated students essentially contradicts the scientific assertion that vaccination will prevent you from getting the disease you were vaccinated against. In other words, it is a back door mandate. The schools are teaching that vaccines prevent illness in biology/science classes, and then ban unvaccinated students with the assertion that they may get other students sick. That should not be a problem with vaccinated students if the vaccines actually work. So a more appropriate remedy is to notify parents that other un-vaccinated students may attend the school and their un-vaccinated child is at risk if they do not vaccinate the child.

There are a lot of people who complain that much of the public doesn't take global warming seriously. If the government wants people to trust science, the government needs to stop using science as a backdrop to tell political lies.

Personally, I like vaccines. I just got a DPT shot and a flu shot (albeit a bit late in the flu season). I'm interested in getting the Herpes Zoster vaccine and the pneumococcal vaccine. I had a cousin die at 67 from pneumonia, and my sister and girlfriend had pneumonia this year.

I do think that there is a reasonable concern that taking too many vaccines at ones may pose risks that taking vaccines individually or in smaller groups doesn't pose. It is not proven yet, but there have been people complaining that their children go from happy, healthy and social to autistic following a vaccine with upwards of 5 different strains covered in one dose. An RN, heck even a phlebotomist, could administer a vaccine. So it shouldn't be expensive.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I doubt people will choose armed insurrection just because the school systems no longer allow philosophical exemptions for vaccines.

Most states don't have a philosophical exemption now and the public school system is under the authority of state and local governments, not the federal government, so it strains credulity to think any American politician means something this innocuous (pun intended) when they plainly state that they think vaccines should be mandatory. In most places they are functionally at this level already and no president would have the constitutional power to change public school requirements anyway.

The only way a president could get a national mandate would be by executive order, declaring a national emergency, or a full congressional overhaul of how the states do this and most states would not appreciate the federal overreach and block it in the courts.

As an anecdote, My state allows for all of the exemptions a state could allow for, but our public school is rigid enough on this that they make it practically impossible to claim a philosophical exemption.

Even in homeschooling my kids, the nature of the paperwork forced us to seek out a doctor friendly to anti-vaxxers to approve all of our requisite medical paperwork for homeschooling that is renewed annually.

Like I said, it strains credulity to interpret the words of politicians like Sanders in the way you construe and not AS THEY ARE ACTUALLY WRITTEN.

However, this is a common leftist ploy, make your views and words seem less extreme than they actually are as to prevent a backlash that would prevent certain candidates from getting into power; though, with idiots like AOC, this tactic has seemingly been thrown out the widow. One can see why they approached topics from the former angle in the past.

[Pants-of-dog]

Most states don't have a philosophical exemption now

Actually, it looks like the majority of states allow philosophical or religious exemptions.

and the public school system is under the authority of state and local governments, not the federal government, so it strains credulity to think any American politician means something this innocuous (pun intended) when they plainly state that they think vaccines should be mandatory.

Drinking age is also under state purview, yet almost all states use the federally mandated age requirement. It would be a simple matter to tie certain federal funding to requirements for the state to get rid of non-medical exemptions.

In most places they are functionally at this level already and no president would have the constitutional power to change public school requirements anyway.

The only way a president could get a national mandate would be by executive order, declaring a national emergency, or a full congressional overhaul of how the states do this and most states would not appreciate the federal overreach and block it in the courts.

1. No, most states are not at the level where children can only have medical exemptions for vaccinations when applying for school.

2. The federal government only needs to attach certain strings to funding in order to make this happen. They already did this before.

Like I said, it strains credulity to interpret the words of politicians like Sanders in the way you construe and not AS THEY ARE ACTUALLY WRITTEN.

Please quote his exact words then, so we can see that what Sanders really meant was your idea about federal soldiers getting into gunfights with parents over it, if that is your claim.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Actually, it looks like the majority of states allow philosophical or religious exemptions.

You are being duplicitous in a manner bordering on outrageous.

I specifically said philosophical exemptions, not religious, and only 18 states give the philosophical exemption.

Which means I was correct and you were misrepresenting my position.

Isn't that correct pants?

18 states allow philosophical exemptions: Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin

https://jacksdailydose.com/2008/11/12/w ... -vaccines/

1. No, most states are not at the level where children can only have medical exemptions for vaccinations when applying for school.

2. The federal government only needs to attach certain strings to funding in order to make this happen. They already did this before.

I am not arguing against either of these points, so you are having a conversation with yourself again.

Please quote his exact words then, so we can see that what Sanders really meant was your idea about federal soldiers getting into gunfights with parents over it, if that is your claim.

Senator Sanders

Vaccinations A measles outbreak in the United States has started a new debate on the merits of mandatory vaccination of all children, which currently is required only in Mississippi and West Virginia. “Obviously, vaccinations work. Vaccination has worked for many, many years,” Sen. Bernie Sanders told The Daily Beast. “I am sensitive to the fact that there are some families who disagree but the difficulty is if I have a kid who is suffering from an illness who is subjected to a kid who walks into a room without vaccines that could kill that child and that’s wrong.”

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom ... tch/020415

This quote is going beyond something like merely removing the philosophical exemption for public schools only as you have suggested.

How does it feel to be so utterly wrong?