Fetal heartbeat and the abortion fight - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15005387
Sivad wrote:So there is a quickening of sorts that occurs when the fetus passes through the birth canal, it's not magic but it's a good fit for what all the ancient philosophers and theologians claimed was the beginning of a human person.

Not impressed by the argument that a state of arousal makes one a person, but the "person" argument seems to be either motivated reasoning or creative guesswork in the absence of knowledge and evidence anyway.

Rugoz wrote:To my knowledge only a small fraction of fertilized eggs actually make it to birth. Abortion is mother nature's preferred way of dealing with conception.

Just to state the obvious, miscarriage is not equivalent to abortion in the same way an accident is not equivalent to murder/manslaughter.
#15005389
Pants-of-dog wrote:Usually, it is called the right to bodily integrity. Oddly enough, the USA does not actually have any clear text saying that its citizens have this right.


Well that would have kind of clashed with some other parts of the Constitution.
#15005423
Godstud wrote:I agree @Hindsite, and yet it happens, anyhow, doesn't it?

As I already said, humans are flawed and make mistakes.

That is no excuse for supporting the murder of an unborn baby by abortion.
#15005429
@Hindsite I suppose there's no excuse for you taking responsibility for the baby after it's born then, right?
#15005431
Godstud wrote:@Hindsite I suppose there's no excuse for you taking responsibility for the baby after it's born then, right?

That is right. The parents must take responsibility for their children.
Praise the Lord.
#15005434
@Hindsite No, are YOU willing to take responsibility for an unwanted child? I am not talking about the person who wants to abort the fetus. Are you, with your anti-abortion stance, willing to take care of the baby after it is born?

You're pro-birth, like most other pro-lifers, but after the baby's born, you don't give a fuck.

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#15005438
Godstud wrote:@Hindsite No, are YOU willing to take responsibility for an unwanted child? I am not talking about the person who wants to abort the fetus. Are you, with your anti-abortion stance, willing to take care of the baby after it is born?

You're pro-birth, like most other pro-lifers, but after the baby's born, you don't give a fuck.

You are making false assumptions. I don't consider any child unwanted. All pro-lifers care about the welfare of every baby before and after it is born. It is people like you that are for abortions that don't give a fuck about the baby.
#15005441
Hindsite wrote:All pro-lifers care about the welfare of every baby before and after it is born.
I don't see pro-lifers lining up to adopt unwanted babies, or even support government policy to help single mothers(like daycare and such) so excuse me if I find your sentiments insincere.

Hindsite wrote:It is people like you that are for abortions that don't give a fuck about the baby.
I'd rather the baby not be born than end up unwanted and unloved in foster care where most of them end up as career criminals, afterwards. I care, too. I am just not happy with someone being born into poverty, or to a single parent who can't take care of them properly.

If every pro-birther put their money where their mouth is, and sponsored a mother who was going to abort, there's be no abortions(or extremely few).

This is a great alternative to abortion:
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#15005443
Godstud wrote:I don't see pro-lifers lining up to adopt unwanted babies, or even support government policy to help single mothers(like daycare and such) so excuse me if I find your sentiments insincere.

I'd rather the baby not be born than end up unwanted and unloved in foster care where most of them end up as career criminals, afterwards. I care, too. I am just not happy with someone being born into poverty, or to a single parent who can't take care of them properly.

If every pro-birther put their money where their mouth is, and sponsored a mother who was going to abort, there's be no abortions(or extremely few).

In the United States we have government welfare and many private charitable organizations that help. Maybe not in Thailand and Canada.
#15005451
[Sivad wrote: wrote: So there is a quickening of sorts that occurs when the fetus passes through the birth canal, it's not magic but it's a good fit for what all the ancient philosophers and theologians claimed was the beginning of a human person.


Wrong. The "quickening" was the moment the mother first detects the foetus moving. Moreover there was/is a wide body of opinions one the state of development. Wouldn't be much of a debate if everyone agreed, would it?
#15005452
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Just to state thwe obvious, miscarriage is not equivalent to abortion in the same way an accident is not equivalent to murder/manslaughter.


True, but a good reason for aborting incestuously conceived embryos
#15005456
Rancid wrote:What Bama wants is for this to get challenged at the US supreme court. This is why they made the law so extreme. If that happens, the US supreme court could overturn Roe V Wade, when then affects the entire nation.

The court will probably just strike Alabama's law down, because it was passed in bad faith. Overturning Roe v. Wade would be a good thing. America is not supposed to have uniform laws across 50 states. That's what leads to political instability. The law should reflect the will of the people in each of the states, not the will of liberals on the Supreme Court--which is precisely why we have such a polarized political culture.
#15005460
T
he court will probably just strike Alabama's law down, because it was passed in bad faith.


I agree. I believe the mechanism will be for the appeals court to strike the law down and the SCOTUS to refuse to hear the case. The appeals court ruling will stand and Roe v. Wade will remain the law.

The states rights argument is compelling. I am for government at the lowest possible level whenever possible. It keeps the people in the process. That said.

We have an argument made in the case of military folks that is interesting. A woman soldier argued that she might be forced to live in Alabama and therefor lose rights she has elsewhere. And this triggers the equal protection clause. One female general had a great solution for Alabama. Alabama has many military bases. She proposed to assert sovereign authority over every soldier and US government person in the state. As it stands the military can assert control over their soldiers in every circumstance. Technically a solder charged with murder by the state could be taken by the military. And the military would have no technical obligation to prosecute. Just a fun aside.
#15005461
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Not impressed by the argument that a state of arousal makes one a person

Well that's not the argument, the argument is that personhood requires at the very least an initial experience of conscious awareness. Anything that has not attained consciousness is not a person and since a fetus never experiences consciousness it can't be considered a person. You should try engaging with the actual argument, it's an interesting challenge for the pro-life position.

but the "person" argument seems to be either motivated reasoning or creative guesswork in the absence of knowledge and evidence anyway.

The article presented multiple lines of evidence, dismissing it as "creative guesswork" is motivated reasoning on your part.


Stormsmith wrote:Wrong.


:knife:

The "quickening" was the moment the mother first detects the foetus moving.


The ancients defined it as the point of ensoulment, the point at which and new person began to exist. They only marked it by first detectable movement, I'm saying the initial experience of conscious awareness is a better fit for the concept.
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