Art vs. Artifice - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By MrWonderful
#15005938
http://WhenCrapIsArt.blogspot.com


Definition of "art":


" n. - something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings"

Definition of "artifice":


ar·ti·fice - ˈärdəfəs - noun - clever or cunning devices or expedients, especially as used to trick or deceive others. outright fakery
synonyms - trickery, deceit, deception, duplicity, guile, chicanery
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Example of art

November 2017
Salvator Mundi, The Savior of the World, by Leonardo da Vinci
Sold for $450 million - real art, by a talented artist


Unfortunately images cannot be inserted here so you will have to visit the website above to see them.

Example of artifice
Leda and the Swan by Cy Twombly, sold at Christie's Auction for $52,887,500
You have to see the dreck to believe it. Here is what the breathless savants of "art" said about the colorful scribbles:
"An exciting mixture of sex and violence."
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By MrWonderful
#15006165
Well done, Friend. Well done. "Artifice"

It has not yet gone to auction but is expected to fetch $20,000,000. Why? Well:

"The work took around two decades to produce as the notoriously perfectionist Koons fiddled with the medium and refined the production process."

Perfection takes time, doesn't it.
#15006171
To insert an image, use the [img] tags around it - either type them, or use the icon in the top row of the "post a reply" screen that looks like a picture of a mountain. Which gives you, for "Leda and the Swan":

Image
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By MrWonderful
#15006188
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:To insert an image, use the [img] tags around it - either type them, or use the icon in the top row of the "post a reply" screen that looks like a picture of a mountain. Which gives you, for "Leda and the Swan":


There is no picture of a mountain that I can see.
There is no way to "insert an image" that I am able to discern.
Normally, in other forums, when you see the image icon, you can click on it and insert something from your computer. Yours requires a link.
#15006196
You wanted to show an image that is on a public web server, not upload one from your own computer. For that you should be putting the 'img' tags around the URL of the image. The icon I'm talking about is to the right of the 'quote' icon like a speech bubble, and to the left of the 'url' icon that is 2 links of a chain.

If you want to upload an image, then click on the "Upload an Image" tab beneath the "Save draft/Preview/Submit" buttons. These are all, as I said, on the 'post a reply' screen, not with the 'quick reply' box that you can see at the bottom of this page. You get the full 'post a reply' screen when you click on the button just marked 'reply', or when you use the "reply with quote" button (two speech bubbles) at the top right of each post in a thread.
By Reichstraten
#15006308
Look at the development of modernist art.
It apparently starts in the 19th century and it's quite decent to look at.
But as the 20th century develops it becomes worse and worse. It has become anti-art instead.
I wonder why this is so. I'm not a fascist, but I think modernist art is degenerating for a long time now, especially in the 20th century and the post-war era.
What could explain this? The disappearance of God from Western consciousness? Or maybe the development of capitalism? Who knows?
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By SolarCross
#15006319
Reichstraten wrote:Look at the development of modernist art.
It apparently starts in the 19th century and it's quite decent to look at.
But as the 20th century develops it becomes worse and worse. It has become anti-art instead.
I wonder why this is so. I'm not a fascist, but I think modernist art is degenerating for a long time now, especially in the 20th century and the post-war era.
What could explain this? The disappearance of God from Western consciousness? Or maybe the development of capitalism? Who knows?


I think it is helpful to remember that "art" is broader than the hyper pretentious mess of modern art. The real art now is the commercial art found in video games and movies. When we look at old art we are looking at the commercial art of religious institutions and family portraits and the like. In its day that was the mainstream of art and the mainstream of art today is video games and movies. "Modern art" is just the lunatic fringe of the art of modern times not the mainstream.
By Reichstraten
#15006321
SolarCross wrote:I think it is helpful to remember that "art" is broader than the hyper pretentious mess of modern art. The real art now is the commercial art found in video games and movies. When we look at old art we are looking at the commercial art of religious institutions and family portraits and the like. In its day that was the mainstream of art and the mainstream of art today is video games and movies. "Modern art" is just the lunatic fringe of the art of modern times not the mainstream.


As far as I know religious art and family portraits was the only art that was produced back then.
Later on art became democratized, think about Bauhaus and now popular artforms like video games or movies as you noticed.
But older art traditions also still exist today, like romantic landscape or neo-classicist paintings.
And a lot of modernism too. Do you have the authority to deny it the label "real art"?
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By SolarCross
#15006324
Reichstraten wrote:As far as I know religious art and family portraits was the only art that was produced back then.
Later on art became democratized, think about Bauhaus and now popular artforms like video games or movies as you noticed.
But older art traditions also still exist today, like romantic landscape or neo-classicist paintings.
And a lot of modernism too. Do you have the authority to deny it the label "real art"?

Not the only art but it was where the most money was made. If you were an artist looking to make a living making art then selling to the church or to rich families is where your meal ticket was I guess. At the end of the day a producer needs a customer to keep going.
By Reichstraten
#15006329
Religious art is a very broad term by the way. It ranges from paintings, to architecture, sculptures, and music.

Did you know Vincent van Gogh only sold one painting during his life? Nowadays he's considered one of the canonical figures of modern art.
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By SolarCross
#15006330
Reichstraten wrote:Religious art is a very broad term by the way. It ranges from paintings, to architecture, sculptures, and music.

Did you know Vincent van Gogh only sold one painting during his life? Nowadays he's considered one of the canonical figures of modern art.

Sure, but that is my point; that art is broader than just what the self-appointed elitists say it is.
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By Hong Wu
#15006339
My impression of modern art is that it can have good compositions, yet without any traditional context, it may as well be made of play-doh... as this thread has well demonstrated.

Van Gogh is arguably the beginning of the tradition into this phase. His compositions and use of colors are obviously excellent but something like a starry night doesn't have the deep passions of a painting of Christ, a depiction of a Greek myth (albeit one I don't personally find too appealing) or even a simple portrait that a master might have spent several years working on.

Without an appreciation of traditional stuff, which would perhaps require the relevancy of traditional stuff, there is IMHO no path currently available to get us back to "real" art.

As for art in video games and so-on, it varies a lot but it is usually also modern art in the ways that I've described it in that it might have a good composition but it usually has no deeper meaning to it.

And so, to be clear: in order for art to have an immediately understood deeper meaning I think it needs to invoke something traditional, something that the viewer can immediately grasp and appreciate the nuances and even the dialogues of despite it being in a generally wordless picture form.
By Reichstraten
#15006351
SolarCross wrote:Sure, but that is my point; that art is broader than just what the self-appointed elitists say it is.


The canon of past times is pretty much undisputed.
The closer an era is in time, the harder it is to decide what pieces of art from that period are worth preserving.
If you like computer games or movies, go ahead, but we'll have to wait at least 100 years before we know it's something to preserve or we could live happily without.
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By SolarCross
#15006356
Reichstraten wrote:The canon of past times is pretty much undisputed.
The closer an era is in time, the harder it is to decide what pieces of art from that period are worth preserving.
If you like computer games or movies, go ahead, but we'll have to wait at least 100 years before we know it's something to preserve or we could live happily without.

The same would be true of "modern art" except I don't think anyone will want to preserve any of it.
By Reichstraten
#15006377
SolarCross wrote:The same would be true of "modern art" except I don't think anyone will want to preserve any of it.


You don't think any modern art from the 19th century is worth preserving?
If that's the case, you're a barbarian.
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By SolarCross
#15006379
Reichstraten wrote:You don't think any modern art from the 19th century is worth preserving?
If that's the case, you're a barbarian.

Thanks for the complement. I have only seen a few things but all of them were garbage, sometimes literally. If you count banksy's stuff as "modern art" then some of that is pretty good but Tracy Emin's bed would be better if she let someone tidy it up.
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By MrWonderful
#15007993
Reichstraten wrote:Artist: Jeff Koons
Title: Play-Doh
Worth: USD 22,812,500

Image

:eh:

Late-capitalist modern "art" is a total disaster.


Ah but 19th century modern "art" is splendid and anyone who doesn't think so is "a barbarian," right Reich?

"You have a truly dizzying intellect." - The Dread Pirate Roberts in Princess Bride
By Reichstraten
#15007998
MrWonderful wrote:Ah but 19th century modern "art" is splendid and anyone who doesn't think so is "a barbarian," right Reich?


That's not what I said. Read it again.

A lot of 19th century art is very good I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_ar ... ist_groups

19th century

Romanticism and the Romantic movement – Francisco de Goya, J. M. W. Turner, Eugène Delacroix
Realism – Gustave Courbet, Camille Corot, Jean-François Millet, Rosa Bonheur
Pre-Raphaelites – William Holman Hunt, John Everett Millais, Dante Gabriel Rossetti
Macchiaioli – Giovanni Fattori, Silvestro Lega, Telemaco Signorini
Impressionism – Frédéric Bazille, Gustave Caillebotte, Mary Cassatt, Edgar Degas, Armand Guillaumin, Édouard Manet, Claude Monet, Berthe Morisot, Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Camille Pissarro, Alfred Sisley
Post-impressionism – Georges Seurat, Paul Cézanne, Paul Gauguin, Vincent van Gogh, Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec, Henri Rousseau, Henri-Jean Guillaume Martin, Albert Lebourg, Robert Antoine Pinchon
Pointillism – Georges Seurat, Paul Signac, Maximilien Luce, Henri-Edmond Cross
Divisionism – Gaetano Previati, Giovanni Segantini, Pellizza da Volpedo
Symbolism – Gustave Moreau, Odilon Redon, Edvard Munch, James Whistler, James Ensor
Les Nabis – Pierre Bonnard, Édouard Vuillard, Félix Vallotton, Maurice Denis, Paul Serusier
Art Nouveau and variants – Jugendstil, Secession, Modern Style, Modernisme – Aubrey Beardsley, Alphonse Mucha, Gustav Klimt,
Art Nouveau architecture and design – Antoni Gaudí, Otto Wagner, Wiener Werkstätte, Josef Hoffmann, Adolf Loos, Koloman Moser
Early Modernist sculptors – Aristide Maillol, Auguste Rodin


MrWonderful wrote:I'm with you SolarCross. The whinyass Leftists always think they're smarter and better than anyone else. Take Hollywood Ignorati, please.


That's not what SolarCross said. An elitist is not a leftist by definition.

By the way, I'm reading a philosophical book about the idea of progress in art. I'll return to this thread when I'm finished.
Meanwhile have fun twisting words.
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