EU-BREXIT - Page 205 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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User avatar
By noemon
#15017504
Whether HUNT or BoJo think the E.U will re-open the matter, is wishful thinking, the only way of avoiding the £39 BILLION being paid through the W.A, is to leave by default on 31 October.


That is wishful thinking akin to someone believing that if he abandons his car in the middle of the road that magically his car loan goes away when in fact he gets a fine and parking charges on top of the loan and the interest. As everyone in Europe said, if the UK fails to pay it will be a registered credit default regardless of deal or not. The question is do you actually believe these nonsense or are you just saying it?
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15017660
Nonsense wrote:Now, I know that there are millions of young people, who, despite the vote to leave, also want a second referendum when the first decisive referendum has not been made effective by leaving the E.U already, that tells me that they also want democracy, but only when it accords with their own views.

But isn't that true for almost everybody? It seems to me that almost nobody is in favour of democracy as an abstract principle. They only support a democratic decision if it accords with what they want. The Remainers reject the democratic result of the Brexit referendum because it's the 'wrong' result, and likewise the Brexiters would reject the democratic result of a second referendum if it didn't go their way. 'Democracy' is merely a rhetorical strategy to strengthen one's own position and undermine that of one's political opponents.
By snapdragon
#15017662
personally, speaking as a remainer, I rejected the result because it was based on lies and disinformation.

Three years later, leavers are still arguing the unicorns are ready and waiting on those sunny uplands.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15017663
snapdragon wrote:personally, speaking as a remainer, I rejected the result because it was based on lies and disinformation.

Three years later, leavers are still arguing the unicorns are ready and waiting on those sunny uplands.

It may have been a foolish and ruinous decision, but it was still a democratic decision. Democracy means accepting the will of the uneducated and the unwashed, even when that will flies in the face of all logic or reason.
By Politics_Observer
#15017664
@Potemkin

Potemkin wrote:It may have been a foolish and ruinous decision, but it was still a democratic decision. Democracy means accepting the will of the uneducated and the unwashed, even when that will flies in the face of all logic or reason.


Yeah it does, doesn't it? I guess no system is perfect is it? Just look at us over here in the US with Trump (though I think we should have compulsory voting like Australia does to help prevent Trumps from coming to power).
By snapdragon
#15017682
Potemkin wrote:It may have been a foolish and ruinous decision, but it was still a democratic decision. Democracy means accepting the will of the uneducated and the unwashed, even when that will flies in the face of all logic or reason.


No it doesn't. It really annoys me the way people define democracy to suit themselves.
User avatar
By SolarCross
#15017684
snapdragon wrote:No it doesn't. It really annoys me the way people define democracy to suit themselves.


Actually he is right, even if he didn't phrase it in a flattering way.

Remainers were full of shit with their project fear. If Brexiteers were selling unicorns then Remainers were (and still are) falsely selling the apocalypse.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15017685
Potemkin wrote:It may have been a foolish and ruinous decision, but it was still a democratic decision. Democracy means accepting the will of the uneducated and the unwashed, even when that will flies in the face of all logic or reason.


Of course, the uneducated and the unwashed voted remain, even when that flew in the face of logic. ;)

'Democracy' is the express demonstration of the people's voice, ignore it at your peril if you are politician who think that you & your party can usurp what the people tell you.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15017686
Potemkin wrote:But isn't that true for almost everybody? It seems to me that almost nobody is in favour of democracy as an abstract principle. They only support a democratic decision if it accords with what they want. The Remainers reject the democratic result of the Brexit referendum because it's the 'wrong' result, and likewise the Brexiters would reject the democratic result of a second referendum if it didn't go their way. 'Democracy' is merely a rhetorical strategy to strengthen one's own position and undermine that of one's political opponents.


If ever there was a more potent demonstration that democracy is the worst form of popular governance than the actions of Westminster MP's post Brexit, then I would be surprised to hear of one instance that is more significant anywhere in the world.

'Democracy' is the pleasure of electing someone to make mistakes for you, blaming them when they do, then compounding your own stupidity by electing another bunch of idiots to do likewise.
By B0ycey
#15017702
Shall we all just pretend that democracy doesn't allows you to change your mind. :roll:

Ignoring that it was advisory and all, the result was respected when article 50 was enacted and the deal was struck. We now know what Brexit is which is a damn sight better than prior to the referendum where everything including the kitchen sink was on offer. If the will of the people is to leave, why worry about a confirmatory vote anyway. You get the same result right?
By Atlantis
#15017722
SolarCross wrote:Actually he is right, even if he didn't phrase it in a flattering way.


No, I don't believe @Potemkin is right in this. He just offers one definition of democracy which presupposes well-informed and mature voters. Brexit and Trump proves that voters are neither. Thus, there need to be checks and balances to prevent the populists from subverting democracy. The fact that populists weren't prevented from subverting democracy in the US and UK only shows that both countries have a dysfunctional bi-partisan system which isn't suitable for representing the will of the people. Both countries are incapable of fixing their political system because of their respective imperialist ambitions.

Obviously Trump and Brexit can't be undone, but both provide the perfect argument for the butchers in Beijing and dictators worldwide to show that democracy is a dysfunctional system and that the subjects of dictators ought to consider themselves lucky not to be encumbered by such a nuisance. Thus, both Trump and Brexit do great damage to democracy and we should not humbly accept these results.
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15017726
Atlantis wrote:No, I don't believe @Potemkin is right in this. He just offers one definition of democracy which presupposes well-informed and mature voters. Brexit and Trump proves that voters are neither. Thus, there need to be checks and balances to prevent the populists from subverting democracy. The fact that populists weren't prevented from subverting democracy in the US and UK only shows that both countries have a dysfunctional bi-partisan system which isn't suitable for representing the will of the people. Both countries are incapable of fixing their political system because of their respective imperialist ambitions.

Obviously Trump and Brexit can't be undone, but both provide the perfect argument for the butchers in Beijing and dictators worldwide to show that democracy is a dysfunctional system and that the subjects of dictators ought to consider themselves lucky not to be encumbered by such a nuisance. Thus, both Trump and Brexit do great damage to democracy and we should not humbly accept these results.

"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." - Henry Kissinger.

Looks like you agree with the internationally wanted war criminal Henry Kissinger, Atlantis. :)

Democracy means obeying the will of the uneducated and uninformed masses, even if that will flies in the face of all reason and logic. Anything less than that is not democracy. What you have described is what Vladimir Putin has called a "managed democracy", in which the state carefully guides and 'educates' the people as to what they should want. And as a last resort, if the state loses confidence in the people, it can dissolve them and choose a new people to rule over, as Bertolt Brecht sardonically observed.
By Rich
#15017727
Potemkin wrote:But isn't that true for almost everybody? It seems to me that almost nobody is in favour of democracy as an abstract principle.

Well I don't believe in absolute morality so to support democracy as an absolute principle would be absurd. But I think you are right that even when people "risk their lives for democracy", they are of course motivated by what they think democracy will bring. perhaps some of the activists of the dissidents and civic activists under communism would have been less keen to do so if they could have seen the future. Peace, security and prosperity inevitably leads to a distinctly unheroic society. Perhaps the British young men who made so many sacrifices in world war II and Korea would have been less keen to do so.

However I'm mighty glad that they did. Today's society is pretty awesome and in the words of the Prophet:

I don't know what's gonna happen, man, but I wanna have
My kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames
Alright!
User avatar
By Potemkin
#15017728
Rich wrote:Well I don't believe in absolute morality so to support democracy as an absolute principle would be absurd. But I think you are right that even when people "risk their lives for democracy", they are of course motivated by what they think democracy will bring. perhaps some of the activists of the dissidents and civic activists under communism would have been less keen to do so if they could have seen the future. Peace, security and prosperity inevitably leads to a distinctly unheroic society. Perhaps the British young men who made so many sacrifices in world war II and Korea would have been less keen to do so.

Such people are actually not in favour of democracy itself (as an abstract principle), but are in fact in favour of liberalism. Democracy is merely a means to that end, or so they believe. And if there is an obvious contradiction between democracy and liberalism, as for example with Brexit or the election of Trump, then they seek to "manage" democracy so that it produces the "right" outcome. Atlantis is an obvious example of this attitude.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15017734
B0ycey wrote:Shall we all just pretend that democracy doesn't allows you to change your mind. :roll:

Ignoring that it was advisory and all, the result was respected when article 50 was enacted and the deal was struck. We now know what Brexit is which is a damn sight better than prior to the referendum where everything including the kitchen sink was on offer. If the will of the people is to leave, why worry about a confirmatory vote anyway. You get the same result right?



Here we go again. :roll:

Democracy does allow you to change your mind,when there is another election.

You don't respect democracy the day after an election because you don't agree with the result.

Further, a political party jumping on the bandwagon by demanding another referendum or election because they don't get the result they want or the 'deal' that they demand, is not a democratic party, you do not get your own way by circumventing your own manifesto commitment to honour the result,by your party's actions in parliament following that referendum.

No, the result was not respected when A50 became enacted,it is respected when the referendum question is honoured, when we leave.

Any party is entitled to fight the next election on remain, that will not guarantee them winning that election, either on their own, or in a 'coalition', for which the Lib Dems have ruled out any such deal with Labour & labour are split down the middle in the same way that the Tories are.

The next election will not resolve the issue, whatever the flavour of the government & 'democracy' will slowly but surely lose the what little respect that it has in the country as a result.
User avatar
By SSDR
#15017757
Potemkin wrote:Such people are actually not in favour of democracy itself (as an abstract principle), but are in fact in favour of liberalism.


I am against democracy, and in my viewpoint, liberalism is Very corrupt.
By B0ycey
#15017780
Nonsense wrote:Democracy does allow you to change your mind,when there is another election.


Sure. Hence the confirmation vote. :roll:
User avatar
By ingliz
#15017783
@Nonsense

It could be they will rerun the first referendum. I know it's a stretch and it's specifically the European elections that are going to judicial review because so many EU citizens were denied a vote, but it could spill over.

Government faces judicial review over EU citizens denied vote.

Lawyer representing group 'the3million' says Europeans in the UK are ‘systematically disenfranchised


Politically, this would be a good move... Blame it all on the lawyers.

It lets everyone off the hook.


:lol:
Last edited by ingliz on 13 Jul 2019 08:26, edited 3 times in total.
By Atlantis
#15017785
Potemkin wrote:"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." - Henry Kissinger.

Looks like you agree with the internationally wanted war criminal Henry Kissinger, Atlantis. :)

Democracy means obeying the will of the uneducated and uninformed masses, even if that will flies in the face of all reason and logic. Anything less than that is not democracy. What you have described is what Vladimir Putin has called a "managed democracy", in which the state carefully guides and 'educates' the people as to what they should want. And as a last resort, if the state loses confidence in the people, it can dissolve them and choose a new people to rule over, as Bertolt Brecht sardonically observed.


Where did I say we should amass a huge army to invade the UK/US to bring the populists to heal, Pot?

You put words into my mouth I would never utter.

No democracy is completely unguided; thus, depending on the state of a country, a "guided democracy" as in Putin's Russia may indeed be the best solution for a time to prevent chaos and upheaval. That may even be more democratic than the deep-rooted subversion of democracy by the plutocracy of your country or the US.

Clearly, imposing your abstract notion of democracy on country's that are not adapted to it, like tribal societies in Afghanistan, is at the root of the problem. Anyways, the aim is imperial conquest and not altruistic.

You define an abstract model of a system, be it democracy or be it socialism, and then decree that all people have to comply with it. That dear Pot, is the imperialism of the mind, which is at the root of all evil.

The real world is infinitely complex and will never submit to your simplistic models. Thus each situation requires a different approach. Moreover, politics like life is dynamic; ie. the presumed intention of pursuing a particular goal, such as democracy, may turn into its very opposite in real life. In reality, the populists negate democracy while paying lip-service to it. You are trying to sell us a dead cat in a sack.
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